THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

The June 2021 theme read is any book or books of your choice, including novels, that covers Operation Barbarossa and/or Finland's Continuation War in 1941.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "The June 2021 theme read is any book or books of your choice, including novels, that covers Operation Barbarossa and/or Finland's Continuation War in 1941."
Thanks, Rick.

With luck, I shall get https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2... in a timely fashion

I managed to tackle my long term nemesis (Defensive battles of Continuation War) earlier this year, so my sole contribution to this topic is: David Stahel's Operation Barbarossa that is based on his Doctoral thesis. Might save it for my first summer vacation in mid of June.

I look forward to learning more about Operation Barbarossa--such an important topic.
As you all undoubtedly know, the Einsatzgruppen followed the German Army into the Soviet Union. Here is a summary of their murderous actions: https://www.yadvashem.org/untoldstori...
I open my book, https://jhupbooks.press.jhu.edu/title..., by describing how nine members of my family were murdered in the first large-scale massacre, on the heels of Barbarossa.

Perato wrote: "I managed to tackle my long term nemesis (Defensive battles of Continuation War) earlier this year, so my sole contribution to this topic is: David Stahel's Operation Barbarossa that is based on hi..."

It should be a good book Perato, I have read all his books covering the Eastern Front except this one.

Bernice wrote: "I look forward to learning more about Operation Barbarossa--such an important topic.
As you all undoubtedly know, the Einsatzgruppen followed the German Army into the Soviet Union. Here is a summar..."

Hopefully you will get quite a few good recommendations Bernice and I am sure a number of group members will be interested in your book.

I am thinking of starting of this theme with this book on Barbarossa:

The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941 by Craig W.H. Luther

Luther's book is terrific

Perato wrote: "I managed to tackle my long term nemesis (Defensive battles of Continuation War) earlier this year, so my sole contribution to this topic is: David Stahel's Operation Barbarossa that is based on hi..."

I have been inspired by this title and I downloaded a Kindle sample to try out.

Your books looks good, too, AR and Theresa.

I am reading... Robert Kershaw's War Without Garlands. I bought it about 9 years ago and now is a good time to read it!

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7...

"Black Cross Red Star: Air War over the Eastern Front : Operation Barbarossa 1941" - Christer Bergström




Offers a fascinating perspective on the Luftwaffe's contributions to Operation Barbarossa.

KOMET wrote: ""Black Cross Red Star: Air War over the Eastern Front : Operation Barbarossa 1941" - Christer Bergström

[bookcover:Black Cross Red Star: Air War over the Eastern Front : Operation B..."

This one has been sitting on my shelf for awhile, and I have the four subsequent volumes as well. I definitely would like to hear your opinion of this book when you're done.

Theresa wrote: "I am reading... Robert Kershaw's War Without Garlands. I bought it about 9 years ago and now is a good time to read it!

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7......"

Excellent choice Theresa!

I’m reading, for the 2nd time, The Collapse of the Third Republic by William Shirer. Very topical, in my option.

A year late, I know. Oh well.

Mark wrote: "A year late, I know. Oh well."

No matter, still a good book :)

From the Preface of "The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941":

"Using any benchmarks, the war that began that day - when, 'as they had in all other cities of Europe, the lights of Russia were blacked out so, all unwilling, Russia became Armageddon' - was the most gigantic, monstrous, and costly war the world has ever witnessed:

* The main Russo-German front reached a maximum length of 2,050 kilometers in 1942, while the maximum depth of the German advance (also 1942) was 1,730 kilometers from the Barbarossa start line.

* From 1941 to 1944, some ten million German soldiers saw active military service in the cities and towns, the forests and swamps, and endless steppe lands of the Eastern Front, and more still in the final battles for Hitler's 1,000-Year Reich in the winter/spring of 1945. More than 4.5 million of these men lost their lives, including over one million who died in Soviet captivity. The average life expectancy of a German lieutenant in the East was eighteen days; of a company commander about twenty-one days; and of a battalion commander roughly thirty-two days.

* During the war 34.5 million men (and women) served in the Soviet armed forces. According to highly credible new research into recently declassified Soviet military archives, the Red Army's 'demographic' losses (i.e., those who were killed in battle; died from wounds, illness, or accidents; perished in captivity, went missing and never returned, or were executed by their own people) amounted to nearly 14.6 million men (and women), while the total number of Soviet citizens (soldiers and civilians) who died in the war is estimated at about 27 million.

* The economic impact of the war was also staggering. The areas ultimately occupied by the German invaders embraced two-fifths of the grain and four-fifths of the sugar beets produced in the Soviet Union, as well as about one-quarter of the country's farm animals, tractors, and combined harvesters. Between them, the German and Russians destroyed 1,710 towns, 70,000 villages, 32,000 industrial plants, and 65,000 kilometers of railway track. 'In the Russian republic alone 23,000 schools were razed to the ground. Damage to basic industry was particularly severe. Between half and two-thirds of Soviet basic industrial capacity was put out of action."

The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941 by Craig W.H. Luther

Whenever you see a statistic on the Eastern Front, it always boggles the mind. And you know there are so many untold stories there.

Mike wrote: "Whenever you see a statistic on the Eastern Front, it always boggles the mind. And you know there are so many untold stories there."

So true Mike!

Mike wrote: "Whenever you see a statistic on the Eastern Front, it always boggles the mind. And you know there are so many untold stories there."

Here's a stat I came across in my reading today: in 1939 the total number of U.S. forces -- Army, Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard -- was only 334,473. By August 1945 it was 12,209,238. The 1939 figure was less than 3% of the 1945 total.

Mark wrote: "I’m reading, for the 2nd time, The Collapse of the Third Republic by William Shirer. Very topical, in my option."

I listened to that one while I was working graveyards. Personally, I think it might actually be better than Rise and Fall.

Who can imagine the battle of Stalingrad without marshal Chuikov ? I just started this one...

Dipanjan wrote: "

Who can imagine the battle of Stalingrad without marshal Chuikov ? I just started this one..."

Should be a good account!

Some statistics on the Soviet military buildup prior to 22 June 1941 as compiled by the author of the book; "The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941":

“From 1939 through June 1941, the rifle divisions received 105,000 light, mounted, and large-caliber machine guns, and 100,000 submachine guns. In the spring of 1941, 500,000 men and NCO’s were called up and dispatched to the border military districts to ‘augment infantry divisions there, bringing up the strength of each to at least 8000.’ An additional 300,000 reservists were called up only days later to man the fortified regions with specialists and to support other arms and services. In sum, the Red Army got an addition of nearly 800,000 men on the eve of the war in what amounted to a ‘partial secret mobilization’.

By 1938 the production of tanks had ‘more than trebled’ in comparison to the early 1930s. From January 1939 to June 22, 1941, the Red Army received more than 7,000 tanks, including 1,861 of the new KV’s and T-34s. ‘The new tanks began appearing in the tank schools and in the border military districts only in the latter half of 1940.’ In 1940, the activation of new mechanized corps got underway, but they were far from fully outfitted when war broke out.

Archival records reveal that, between January 1, 1939, and June 22, 1941, the Red Army took receipt of 29,637 field guns and 52,407 mortars - the total number of new artillery pieces and mortars (including tank guns) amounted to 92,578. This equipment was ‘mostly organic to the units in the field,’ while the High Command Reserve consisted of just sixty howitzer and fourteen artillery regiments on the eve of the war - a number which, ‘considering the specifics of war with Germany, was totally insufficient.’ In the spring of 1941 the Red Army began to form ten antitank artillery brigades, ‘but failed to man them to prescribed strength by June.’

Archival records also reveal that, from January 1, 1939, to June 22, 1941, the Red Army received 17,745 combat planes, among them 3,719 of the ‘latest models.’ A ‘new stage’ began in aircraft construction, with new designs including the Yak-1, MiG-3, and LaGG-3 fighters, the Il-2 ground attack plane, the Pe-2 bomber, and others, ‘some 20 types in all’. In late 1940 ‘batch production was stepped up of the best types of aircraft. But industry could not keep pace with the needs of the time. Old types of aircraft were still plentiful on the eve of the war. Some 75-80% of the planes were technically inferior to their German counterparts. New aircraft were still in the testing stage; only 21% of the air units had been rearmed.’

The buildup of naval forces was accelerated. The first eleven months of 1940 witnessed the launch of one hundred destroyers, submarines, minesweepers, and torpedo boats - ‘all of them highly effective in combat.’ Some 270 ships of all types were constructed in 1940, while new naval bases were established. ‘On the whole, the Soviet Navy was impressive on the eve of the war, and gave the enemy a fitting reception’.”

There were plenty of tanks but most of them were not fully operational, lack of spare parts kept them out of combat. This was properly covered in Hill's Red army from the cambridge armies of WW2 series

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Some statistics on the Soviet military buildup prior to 22 June 1941 as compiled by the author of the book; "The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941":

“..."

Quite impressive.

Perato wrote: "There were plenty of tanks but most of them were not fully operational, lack of spare parts kept them out of combat. This was properly covered in Hill's Red army from the cambridge armies of WW2 se..."

Indeed, that was a major issue with the tanks in stock with the Red Army.

"The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941" - On the cusp of invasion:

"As dawn broke on Saturday, June 21, 1941, two colossal armies sat on the Russo-German frontier along a front stretching for 1,800 kilometers from the Baltic to the Black Sea. One of these armies, the largest invasion force the world had ever seen, having finally lurched into place, was the newly minted Ostheer - made up of three-quarters of the German army's field strength, splendidly trained and equipped, and poised to unleash the 1941 equivalent of a nuclear first strike. To cite specific numbers, Hitler's eastern army consisted of 148 divisions earmarked for th email battle front, including nineteen panzer and fourteen motorized infantry divisions; 120 of these divisions, distributed among three army groups, made up the first assault wave, while twenty-eight were assigned to the OKH reserve. All told, the invasion force embraced some 3.3 million men, 3,350 tanks, 250 assault guns, 7,146 artillery pieces, 600,000 vehicles, and 625,000 horses. This enormous array was supported by a Luftwaffe force structure in the East of nearly 3,000 aircraft (of which 2,250 were combat ready). Allied forces included about 500,000 Finnish troops, (sixteen divisions with adequate modern equipment) and some 150,000 Romanian troops with largely outmoded equipment."

The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941 by Craig W.H. Luther

The numbers involved at the start of the war on the Eastern Front are simply eye watering Rick... but they are literally so big that they're just numbers. Hopefully you'll get to some ordinal testimony in due course?

I was going to weigh in with what looks like the epic Barbarossa Derailed. Volume 1: The German Advance, the Encirclement Battle, and the First and Second Soviet Counteroffensives, 10 July - 24 August 1941 and Barbarossa Derailed. Volume 2: The German Offensives on the Flanks and the Third Soviet Counteroffensive, 25 August-10 September 1941; but at nearly 2000 pages (of Glantz!!) my mind is rebelling somewhat (especially as they need to be "studied"). Might need to give this month a miss.

Continuing from Alexander Hill's Book, the actual numbers:
"These tanks(BT2 and 5) that exclusively equipped some of the later mechanised corps were no longer in production, spare parts for them were almost unavailable and every serious break down meant, - - that the vehicle went out of service for good"
"Units didn't even receive sufficient spares for day-day maintenance" "Some of the approximately 16080 tanks requiring day-to-day servicing and light repairs were also most propably not likely to have been ready to meet the Wehrmacht."

He put the number of fully operational tanks in around 2150, and over 8000 somewhat ready for combat. Soviets really did just manufacture new tanks instead of trying to have the ones on the field working. Then again, munitions was a another chapter:

"For the tanks that were available, and indeed serviceable, munitions were in short supply - - Certainly the 76mm guns of the latest tanks and field guns could not rely on high explosive rounds in combat with enemy tanks" Around 146 000 armor piercing rounds were delivered in 1940-1941 of the over 550 000 that were ordered.

Also there were problems with having enough trucks to move spare parts and fuel.

Alexander Hill in The Red Army and the Second WorldWar. These are 1941 numbers.

Jonny wrote: "The numbers involved at the start of the war on the Eastern Front are simply eye watering Rick... but they are literally so big that they're just numbers. Hopefully you'll get to some ordinal testi..."

Two excellent volumes Jonny that you have just reminded me that I also copies that I have yet to read. I hope you find the books interesting, keep us all posted.

Perato wrote: "Continuing from Alexander Hill's Book, the actual numbers:
"These tanks(BT2 and 5) that exclusively equipped some of the later mechanised corps were no longer in production, spare parts for them we..."

Great bit of information Perato, thanks for posting those details.

Jonny wrote: "The numbers involved at the start of the war on the Eastern Front are simply eye watering Rick... but they are literally so big that they're just numbers. Hopefully you'll get to some ordinal testi..."

2000 pages of Glantz is quite the challenge!

I'm getting back into Robert Kershaw's War Without Garlands after spending a few days in the Black Hills of South Dakota with my family at the end of the school year. I thought this passage was interesting. It seems these "U-Boat tanks" were more successful than the Americans' similar contraptions used on D-Day...

In Generalmajor Nehring's 18th Panzer Division sector near Pratulin, numbers of tanks simply drove down the bank of the Bug and disappeared underwater. Infantry nearby watched in amazement as tank after tank slid beneath the surface of the water like grotesque amphibians. These tanks, belonging to the 1st Battalion Panzer Regiment 18 had originally been trained and equipped to wade underwater from ramp-mounted ferry boats built in preparation for Operation 'Seelove' (sea lion), the proposed invasion of England. In October 1940 the venture was cancelled, then resurrected in part for the foreseen amphibious assault crossing of the Bug.

The 'U-Boat' tanks were fitted with 3m steel pipes which protruded from the surface of the water as they waded across the river bottom, enabling the crew and engines to breathe. Exhausts were fitted with one-way valves and gun turrets were insulated by air-filled bicycle inner tubes. Bubbles from the exhaust were obliterated by the moving current. Total surprise was achieved as 80 of these Panzer amphibians emerged on the far bank, rapidly establishing a deep bridgehead. Russian armoured cars that had begun to menace landed infantry were quickly despatched.

Very interesting post Theresa. Here is a link to a web page on the German Tauchpanzers:

Panzerkampfwagen III Ausf H(U) – Tauchfahig (U-Panzer / Submersible Tank):
https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2020/08...

Thanks AR! I'll read more about them. It's night time here and my neighborhood is experiencing a power outage. Too dark to read. Very sad!

"The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941" - The German soldiers now have to learn how to combat a new type of enemy soldier:

"Meanwhile, in the sector of Hansen's 10 Army Corps, 126 Infantry Division was learning some bitter lessons of its own about the nature of combat on the Eastern Front:

The 2nd Battalion, 422 Infantry Regiment, suffered heavy losses. Parts of a Soviet machine gun picket had hidden themselves in a cornfield and allowed the first wave of the attack to pass by. In the afternoon, when Captain Lohmar unsuspectingly led his battalion from reserve positions to the front, the Russians in the crops suddenly opened up. Among those killed was the battalion commander, among those seriously wounded was his adjutant. It took an entire company three hours to flush the four Russians out of the field. They were still firing when the Germans had got within 10 feet of them, and had to be silenced with hand grenades.

As noted in the 126 ID war diary, due to such combat methods on the part of the enemy - methods that the German found highly unpleasant (unerfreulich) and that were attributed largely to Russian Asiatic troops - 422 Infantry Regiment lost three officers and a large number of NCOs and men on this first day of the war."

The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941 by Craig W.H. Luther

I have just finished two chapters from Marshal Chuikov's memoir on the Stalingrad battle. He is quite candid in criticising Soviet's logistics problem and other weaknesses in the initial stage of the battle. At the same time he also generously praises the steadfastness of the Soviet soldiers to slow down the German drive onwards Stalingrad.

"Double Fighter Knight" by Ilmari Juutilainen



"This is the author's story of his career as a fighter pilot for Finland during the Second World War.

" 'More than a biography, this book also sheds light on Finland's motivation for its participation in the war against the Soviet Union, the role of tactical aviation on the Eastern Front, fighter tactics in general' [and] 'the incredible performance of the Finnish Air Force against overwhelming odds in the harsh environment of Karelia and the Gulf of Finland.' "

'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941" - The German soldiers now have to learn how to combat a new type of enemy soldier:

"Meanwhile, in the sector o..."

Ben Shepherd noted that it was tactics like this that played directly into German fears of guerilla warfare and contributed to the atrocities prevalent on the Eastern Front.

Ben was right. He and I spoke about this as he was writing his first book. We had dinner near the Univ. of Birmingham where he was teaching, and we were sharing research together. I had the interviews tat supplemented and confirmed his research. The Night and Fog Decree was a direct result of the early methods employed by Soviet forces.

Just finished the chapter concerning Army Group Centre in the book; "The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941". In the section dealing with the German assault on the Russian fortress of Brest-Litovsk he states that Rostislav Aliev; "whose meticulously researched book ( The Siege of Brest 1941) is the finest to date on the savage struggle for the fortress ..."

Luckily I have a copy of this book that I am yet to read.

The Siege of Brest 1941: A Legend of Red Army Resistance on the Eastern Front by Rostislav Aliev

"The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941" - The fighting to take the fortress of Brest-Litovsk:

"In a publication released by the Wehrmacht High Command (OKW) in 1943, a participant in the battle for the Brest fortress recorded his impressions of the savage fighting on June 22:

The battles on the island extremely difficult. Complex terrain: groups of houses, clusters of trees. bushes, narrow strips of water, plus the ruins, and the enemy is everywhere. His snipers are excellently camouflaged in the trees. Camouflage suits made of gauze with leaves attached to them. Superb snipers! Shooting from hatches in the ground, basement windows, sewage pipes ...

First impression: the Bolshevist fights to his very last breath. Perhaps because of the threat of the commissars: those who fall into German captivity are shot. (According to statements by the first prisoners.) At any rate: no slackening of fighting power, even though resistance futile since citadel is surrounded.

Silent night. We dig the first graves."

The Defence of Brest 1941:
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/worl...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense...

"The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941" - Another firsthand account from the fighting in Army Group Centre’s sector, this time as German assault troops fight their way into the Soviet 68 Fortified Region (Grodno):

“ ... The first resistance was encountered less than a mile from the border. A dug-in tank covered an antitank ditch, behind which stood groups of bunkers on both sides of the road. The preparatory fires had not silenced them. Antitank guns and machine guns concentrated their fires on the embrasures.

The engineer assault teams worked their way through wheat fields, fortunate to find cover in them and then behind earth mounds near the bunkers. Blinding the apertures with flamethrowers, individual engineers charged up to the bunker walls and with extension ladders scaled them. From the relative safety of their perches, they lowered explosive charged to the apertures, blasted holes into ventilation and periscope shafts, then poured gasoline into them followed by smoke grenades and chain charges. Meanwhile, other demolition teams blasted the often hidden entries to the bunkers.

In some of the storied bunkers, each level had to be destroyed in this manner, down to the basement. Rarely did the Russian crews, which numbered from 20-50 men, surrender, and most of the defenders fought to the death. In some instances survivors believed to be dead came to after hours and resumed the fight, requiring the same position to be neutralized all over again."

The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941 by Craig W.H. Luther

"The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941" - The first appearance of the T-34 on June 22nd in Army Group Centre's sector as recounted by Horst Ohrloff, commander of the 11th Tank Company in the 3rd Battalion, 25 Panzer Regiment:

"After about 20 tanks of 3rd Battalion had crossed the northern bridge, the 21st tank was hit by a Russian tank that was in a well-concealed position near the bridge and could not be detected by the German tanks. The commander of the German tank, a second lieutenant, was killed and the Russian tank rushed back to its unit by passing approximately 30 German tanks that were dispersed throughout a large area. Several tanks including mine, tried to destroy the enemy tank using our 37mm gun. These attempts, however, had no effect on the T-34 that we were observing for the first time.

The German forces did not succeed at first in expanding the northern bridgehead because it was impossible to destroy the Russian tanks in hull-down positions on the reverse slope .... East of the southern bridge some German tanks were ambushed, and six were lost to antitank gun fire."

The T-34 in 1941:
https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/t...

"The First Day on the Eastern Front: Germany Invades the Soviet Union, June 22, 1941" - The author mentioned a German army doctor; Dr. Heinrich Haape:

"Dr. Haape would spend more than two years on the Russian front, where he would become one of the most decorated doctors in the Ostheer, garnering the German Cross in Gold, the Iron Cross (First Class and Second Class), the Infantry Assault Badge, the Wounded Badge, and a decoration for personally destroying two Russian tanks in close combat."

After that I had to order a copy of his book; "Moscow Tram Stop" which has been recently re-published:

Moscow Tram Stop: A Doctor's Account of the German Invasion of the Soviet Union, 1941-42 by Dr Heinrich Haape

Somewhat relating to a subject from a book barely mentioning Soviets. Writing about airforce comparison in Malay, Frank writes about Brewster Buffalo. Endnote(p628) read's as following:

Although the Buffalo figures prominently in many discussions of "Worst Aircraft of World War II", its phenomenal record with Finland must be recognized. Finnish Buffalo pilots from June 1941 to may 1944 reportedly shot down 459 Soviet aircraft while losing only 15 Buffaloes in air combat, four in accidents and two in air raids. Twelve Finnish pilots were killed in Buffaloes. Frigid Finnish temperatures prevented many engine defects.

From the Notes section of Tower of Skulls: A History of the Asia-Pacific War, Volume I: July 1937-May 1942, referencing a book Brewster F2A Buffalo Aces of World War 2

It's always kind of "funny" to read how bad the airplane is considered while it's quite known fact in Finland that it worked wonders in here. Also it's somewhat ironical to read about frigid temperatures in Finland while sweating in my balcony. Not like it's Asia temperatures in here, but still, it's not like our summers are all snow and icebergs.

Sweating on your balcony in Finland??? Unheard of is this part of the world Perato. In Australia, Finland is all snow and reindeers!

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Sweating on your balcony in Finland??? Unheard of is this part of the world Perato. In Australia, Finland is all snow and reindeers!"

Swamps. I have heard a lot of Swamps in Finland.