Play Book Tag discussion

I was much less kind with this book upon the first read, giving it only 3 stars. Well, I've totally revised my opinion. This book absolutely deserves 5 stars and is probably the best book in the series.

Why was I so harsh the first time around? I've been contemplating this. I was much younger then, for one thing, and I don't think I was willing to read ASOIAF on its own terms. Rather, I just wanted to be "caught up" so I could continue to watch the show. That was clearly a bad idea. Hindsight is 20/20, and now that Game of Thrones is remembered as a flawed show that ended badly, I can fully appreciate the sprawling splendor of its source material.

A Dance With Dragons keeps complicating the already complex plot of the preceding books, and throws some genuinely wild and shocking plot twists in there. Also, as I think I've stated in previous reviews, this series is less about its characters (although they are well-drawn and compelling) and more about the macro-political conflict happening on the world stage. Read with an appreciation of history and the forces that shape it, ASOIAF is an unparalleled masterpiece.

And in no book are the foibles of history on fuller display than in A Dance With Dragons. Long awaited plans come to fruition, but are stymied by mistakes or happenstance. Daenerys has conquered Meereen but struggles to hold it, learning the lesson of many invaders that busting into a foreign land where you don't understand the economy or culture can only create problems in the long run. Tyrion goes east to reach Daenerys, but uncovers a plot regarding the "long-lost" Aegon Targaryen, falls victim to a storm at sea, and ends up in chains. Quentyn Martell hopes to make good on a plot hatched by his father over a decade ago and pays dearly for his delusions of grandeur. The North rallies around saving Arya Stark from the Boltons, never knowing the girl they are risking everything for is a fake. Jon Snow tries his hand at politicking, but his cozy relations with the wildlings alienate his allies to the breaking point. Whole armies are crippled by disease. A historic blizzard buries another. And on and on and on. Everyone is struggling to adapt and making it up as they go along. It's absolutely riveting storytelling, and despite being set in a land of magic and dragons, it feels just like the messy course that history takes in real life.

I remember now why the decade-long wait for The Winds of Winter has been so excruciating. The ground we have been set on as readers is so precarious, so certain to crumble, that holding our breaths for so long becomes unbearable. I want to know what happens. The show certainly didn't tell me. At this point in the series, the plot only vaguely resembles the paths the show took. And so now my watch begins again, as I hope GRRM will come through, and the audience can see our way to a satisfying conclusion.

I am glad I reread this series. I had forgotten so much, and missed so much the first time, that it was definitely worth revisiting. I have a better appreciation for it, and can only hope that one day soon, at long last, the wait for more will have been worth it.

In the mean time, I hear there's these tales of Dunk and Egg, and a history of the Targaryen reign...

I absolutely loved your review and agree 1000%! The depth and complexity of this series is breathtaking, and cannot be appreciated on only one read. Before ADWD was published, I re-read the entire series. When the announcement finall comes that TWOW is being published, I'll start a re-read again. I pick up so much on a second reading.

GRRM is famouns for repeating 2 things: He decided to write a book he wanted to read when he started it, not the book to fit expectations or trends. He also has said that ASOIAF is loosely (or maybe not so loosely) based on The War of the Roses. GRRM is a student and reader of military history. It is so evident. In addition to the War of the Roses, you see the Napoleonic Wars influence as well.

This is also why it has been read and loved by many across many genres. Like me.

and I don't think I was willing to read ASOIAF on its own terms. Rather, I just wanted to be "caught up" so I could continue to watch the show.

This is so true --- I felt that with HP Deathly Hallows - when it came out I read it in a day, anxious to find out how it all ends, and wasn't so thrilled with it -it felt endless that they were 'camping' with nothing happening. I re-read it before the move came out and WHOA there was so much there!

Theresa wrote: "I absolutely loved your review and agree 1000%! The depth and complexity of this series is breathtaking, and cannot be appreciated on only one read. Before ADWD was published, I re-read the entire series. When the announcement finall comes that TWOW is being published, I'll start a re-read again. I pick up so much on a second reading."

I totally agree! I hope TWOW will be released (fairly) soon, but I'm already thinking I could probably go back to the beginning and pick up even more I didn't notice before. I am glad I did the reread now, though – there was so much I'd completely forgotten it felt like I was reading it for the first time.

GRRM is famouns for repeating 2 things: He decided to write a book he wanted to read when he started it, not the book to fit expectations or trends. He also has said that ASOIAF is loosely (or maybe not so loosely) based on The War of the Roses. GRRM is a student and reader of military history. It is so evident. In addition to the War of the Roses, you see the Napoleonic Wars influence as well.

I love that GRRM has flat out said he bucks trends. That's what makes this series so refreshing and unexpected, and ultimately what made the show so disappointing when the writers clearly decided to go off his script. There's so much that happens in ADWD that never makes it to the show and I think it's some of the most fascinating stuff in the series (the whole Dorne plot, Young Griff/Aegon(?) and the Golden Company, Euron's endgame).

This is so true --- I felt that with HP Deathly Hallows - when it came out I read it in a day, anxious to find out how it all ends, and wasn't so thrilled with it -it felt endless that they were 'camping' with nothing happening. I re-read it before the move came out and WHOA there was so much there!

I remember the HP hype too, and inhaling a book super fast to keep up with some sort of pop culture discourse, and in hindsight I don't think I've ever had a positive reading experience doing that. When TWOW finally comes out, I think I'm gonna unplug my internet for a month and just try to engage with it for what it is!

I read right through the first 3 books of this series when they were the only ones. Although it is darker than I usually like, I really got involved. In the first book, after a lot of violence and death, I said, "If the barbarian king is terrible to poor, innocent Daenerys, I am quitting". But it didn't go that way at all. One thing I liked a lot is that magic doesn't have a major role. Many characters advance simply by their wits and deviousness.

I found the 4th book a letdown because it dealt a lot with minor characters. I never quite got around to the 5th one and then I decided I will just wait and if he ever finishes the saga, I will reread everything. I didn't watch the TV show partly because I didn't have the channel, but also because I find it harder to see violence than to read about it, and it seems like they played up the sex and violence over other parts of the story.

Before the TV series, I saw Martin at my local Borders store (so obviously a while ago). While that event was full, he talked about his earliest readings where nobody showed up. In fact, one event was at a bookstore/cafe and the people in the cafe got up and left when he was introduced! Little did they know. . . However, I think he got carried away with the glamour of the TV show and neglected his original fans. It is unfair to take so long to produce the next book. Same issues with Patrick Rothfuss and Scott Lynch, although apparently Lynch has health issues, which is too bad. More authors should be like Michael J. Sullivan, who writes a whole series at once, even if they are to be released over several years.

I am also planning to re-read when the publish date comes out for the next book. Guess we will start a buddy-read?

I read the first 4 books (3? No, I think 4) but never read this one. At this point, my money is on the series never being finished. Lol.

If it is finished, I think I will wait til then and re read them all. I my has been so long since I read the other 4 that I will need a refresher and I need the show to fade from memory more.

If the series is never finished, then I think I’ll just let the show stand alone as my GoT experience.

Robin P wrote: "I found the 4th book a letdown because it dealt a lot with minor characters. I never quite got around to the 5th one and then I decided I will just wait and if he ever finishes the saga, I will reread everything. I didn't watch the TV show partly because I didn't have the channel, but also because I find it harder to see violence than to read about it, and it seems like they played up the sex and violence over other parts of the story."

I understand these opinions, though I admit I really enjoyed books 4 and 5 more on the re-read when I didn't feel pressure to be "caught up." I can totally see having to wait for a book release and then getting A Feast For Crows to be a letdown, though. No Tyrion, no Dany, no Jon Snow! I grew to like ASOIAF better when I began reading more for the world than for specific characters.

Robin P wrote: "However, I think he got carried away with the glamour of the TV show and neglected his original fans. It is unfair to take so long to produce the next book. Same issues with Patrick Rothfuss and Scott Lynch, although apparently Lynch has health issues, which is too bad."

Honestly, I can see the massive popularity of the show being a dampener on motivation for the books. With that many people watching, the pressure to perform and the knowledge you're certainly never going to be able to satisfy everyone is probably a real mood-killer. I'm not familiar with Scott Lynch, but I don't really know what Rothfuss's excuse is. I read and loved The Name of the Wind but I thought The Wise Man's Fear was a sloppy, meandering mess. I have a hard time even comparing the Kingkiller Chronicles to ASOIAF because clearly GRRM has been meticulously planning out this world and story for decades, whereas... I don't know if Rothfuss ever really knew what he wanted to write.

Joanne wrote: "I am also planning to re-read when the publish date comes out for the next book. Guess we will start a buddy-read?"

When I hear a date for TWOW I will totally go back and read the series a third time! I would love to do a buddy read in the event of this.

Nicole R wrote: "I read the first 4 books (3? No, I think 4) but never read this one. At this point, my money is on the series never being finished. Lol."

I used to think this too, but... IDK, I decided the world is dark enough as it is and I have to have something to believe in. So I have found faith that it will somehow get finished. I also really enjoyed The World of Ice and Fire and still plan to read the side stories A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and Fire and Blood. I love a good history book of a fictional world, but I am definitely a nerd in that regard...

Hahaha! I wish you would share your optimism with Martin. I truly do not think he is even writing anymore.

Hey, between climate change, the pandemic, and the authoritarian turn of democracies on a global scale, I decided I had to be optimistic about something!

Also, according to GRRM, he holed up for most of 2020 in a mountain cabin and worked on TWOW, and who am I to say he was lying? 😉

A little late chiming in...

I read the first way back when the mass market paperback had been out a bit, and just a few months before a Clash of Kings was published. That was 1998. It was then supposed to be a trilogy. No one heard of him or the series. Storm of Swords followed in 2000. That is when his following started blowing up and the book etself exploded into a predicted 5 volumes. And then long waits started.
Feast of Crows was not originally the next book...it was to be Dance with Dragons and that would be the end. But the complexity of what he created demanded more, the fans and publisher were clamoring, Dance with Dragons was getting too big, was unfinished, and would have to be 2 volumes. So it was split as it was and Feast of Crows published in 2005 (he has said in hindsight he should have refused to split it that way). Dance with Dragons was 2011. And by then he knew it was going to be 7 volumes.

If you consider that Feast of Crows and Dance with Dragons were really one book, it was 11 years after Storm of Swords in 2000. TWOW is moving at his usual pace.

Of course, the HBO series blew its popularity ... and impatience of readers ... into the stratosphere.

Theresa wrote: "Dance with Dragons was getting too big, was unfinished, and would have to be 2 volumes. So it was split as it was and Feast of Crows published in 2005 (he has said in hindsight he should have refused to split it that way)."

That is interesting, because I have a fringe theory he is taking so long because he is actually writing The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring simultaneously. This is because he wants to make sure the continuity will line up (and everyone is already pissed by the long wait so why not just get the whole series done while no one is expecting it). I have no evidence for this theory except that I think if I were him this is what I would do, but considering the way AFFC and ADWD were split up, that is actually not too far out of the realm of possibility. Hmm...

Heather Reads Books wrote: "Theresa wrote: "Dance with Dragons was getting too big, was unfinished, and would have to be 2 volumes. So it was split as it was and Feast of Crows published in 2005 (he has said in hindsight he s..."


Oh, absolutely there is truth to that! I just didn't include that. While not completely written perhaps, large sections of A Dream of Spring are likely to be done.

When he was writing TSOS, TFFC, and ADWD, he would talk about the writing process and where he was in a lot more than he ever will again before the series is finished. He frequently would mention how he would get caught in one character's viewpoint for a while, moving far forward, then go back and bring another forward, or write some other character's thread for awhile then go back and edit and move things around so he has large sections far ahead done. Large sections of both TFFC and ADWD were written when he finished ASOS. Those sections may have been moved around, or ediied out eventually.

Not sure I am describing it well but to use a needlework analogy, say are cross stitching a large piece with many colors. You pick a starting point in the design chart, it needs red thread, sonyou thread up the needle and work on that spot for a while. You get tired of stitching in red (for GRRM tired of the character) or hit the end of the section needing red (for GRRM hits a plot point that needs another character or more than thought). Or you no longer need red so you go back to the area next to the red start and begin with its color.

Eventually you work around the design, finishing some sections completely, others you have to go back and fill in. If a really big complex piece, you will break up it up into sections, stitching each section completely as if a stand alone design, tgen move on. At tge very end you inspect whole piece, fill in gaps, fix mistakes, add embellishments.

He does not write the whole sequentially the way it will be read.

I also suspect he needed to get some distance from the HBO series.

Did you know there are guides out there on how to reread TFFC and ADWD as if one book? That's my plan when I do a reread.

@ Theresa, I do that all the time. i.e.: get tired of stitching in one color, LoL, and thought it was just me!

@Theresa, that’s fascinating, and I can totally see how that is his writing process. I suspect I would do the same if I were him (I’ve written fiction, but never something so grand in scope! Maybe one day…) I think that is why I have more hope he will finish than some authors who seem to have fallen off the wagon. It was evident on my reread there was stuff planted in the first or second book coming to fruition in the fourth or fifth, etc. say what you like about his pace, but it’s clear GRRM is a meticulous planner. In contrast, when I read Rothfuss’s Wise Man’s Fear after The Name of the Wind, I got the sense he was largely “winging it” and refusing to pick up plot threads planted in the first book. That destroyed my confidence in a strong follow through and it has not surprised me the final book in the Kingkiller Chronicles has not come out… I’m not sure it’s even the story he wanted to tell anymore, or ever was. Also, Rothfuss was a young author when The Name of the Wind came out, while GRRM was already an established prolific writer when he started ASOIAF. Overall he just seems more competent and I get irked when these two authors are compared to each other. The circumstances and the works they are trying to complete feel quite different.

PS I did not know where was a guide for reading AFFC and ADWD together! I read them back to back though so I didn't lose much in terms of sense of time and place, but that sounds like a fun exercise for another re-read!

Joanne wrote: "@ Theresa, I do that all the time. i.e.: get tired of stitching in one color, LoL, and thought it was just me!"

That's more common than those stitchers that start at the top left and work through straight or do one color completely and move on.

I also have about 1500 WIPS....I mean I get bored with one theme/color scheme or the frog keeps visiting, and I have to move on. Or I am tired of a huge piece and want to finish something small. or whatever.

Definitely a mood stitcher.

Heather Reads Books wrote: "@Theresa, that’s fascinating, and I can totally see how that is his writing process. I suspect I would do the same if I were him (I’ve written fiction, but never something so grand in scope! Maybe ..."

A present for you Heather - link to one of the combined reading guides. I plan to do this on my next re-read. This is one of the best fan sites - I don't remember if this is the one I originally had saved a link for (which I have no idea where to find now), but this is one of the sites I would rely on - the other is the Westeros site which GRRM mentions in his Not a Blog often (though disclaiming any involvement). You do follow his Not a Blog on his website don't you?

https://watchersonthewall.com/introdu...

You know, we should plan a buddy re-read - not in 2021! Maybe 2022... maybe.... that could be fun and I bet we'd rope a couple others into it. I like doing a big read or two in a year. 2019/2020 I spent 9 months reading Proust - In Search of Lost Time - something like 4500 pages and that was slow tough reading. This summer I just started 1500 page A Suitable Boy. In 2017 or 2018 I read Hunger’s Brides: A Novel of the Baroque - something like 1400 pages and not a fast read either. I have also reread all of Harry Potter at least once, LOTR at least 3 times, and ASOIAF once (that was just as ADWD was to be published and took me 3 weeks). Spread out over many many years of course.

I agree - GRRM is in a class all his own - maybe shared by Janie Wurts and her series that started before his and has yet to be finished - although she's allegedly getting the final volume out in next year. Mistwraith series or something like that? A friend is a huge fan -I've not read at least not yet. It sounds like it has too much magic and world building for me.

Rothfuss - I have not read Wise Men Fear but only The Name of the Wind - which read like Dickens with a dragon in it and I liked that. Which I liked it a lot and I have Wise Men Fear, I feel no rush to read it. I will at some point but you may be right about the series never being finished. Rothfuss has I believe severe OCD and related syndromes. If you have ever seen him on a con panel, you can see it in his mannerisms, behavior, etc. He also uses a huge pool of beta readers throughout the process - which speaks of a lack of confidence as a writer. His writing never was and is unlikely to ever be in the same league as GRRM in quality, style, complexity, etc.

There are writers in many genres who are slow to deliver the next one -- and some will never deliver because their life was cut short - Sue Grafton - there will be no Z even though she had the title from the day she wrote A (Z is for Zero). Last year I read an article where a history writer finally finished and published volume whatever in a history series he was writing that his fans and followers had been waiting some ridiculous length of time for -- 20 years maybe? Just like with GRRM, his fans and readers were speculating that it would never be done, he wasn't writing it, etc.

I do some needlework design, mostly just adapations of antique samplers, not original art (which I have negligible skill at). Creation of quality product takes a lot of time, effort, redoing, etc. etc. etc. I remember a rooster cross stitch design I was doing- the actual rooster was charted from an antique sampler whose colors were badly faded. I was working on a pleasing combo of colors to bring this rooster to life -- took me weeks and weeks and ripping out the model stitching 3 full times before I was satisfied. I still love it and would not change a color. And that was just one motif in a large piece.

I suspect that readers most complaining have no clue about what is required to create and to create a quality product --- two very different if related things.

Thank you so much! I will bookmark this.

I am definitely interested in a 2022 buddy reread! It took me a long time to do the first reread - I started in late 2019, so by the time I finished ADWD earlier this year I thought, I’m already so far removed from AGOT that I could stand to read it again, lol.

I also haven’t read the prequel novellas at all, nor Fire and Blood, though I do own The World of Ice and Fire and read through it awhile back. Great world-building stuff there and beautiful art. I’m not sure if that could be included in the buddy read, or whether that might be a bit much for a casual reader (the world book reads like a history text, which I’m nerdy enough to love, but I suspect isn’t everyone’s cup of tea!!).

Also, re: Rothfuss, that is interesting info, especially about the beta readers. I had heard he’s struggled with mental health issues but all I could really find when I looked him up recently is that he seems to have transitioned to a career as a twitch streamer. Which, more power to him I guess, although I have to wonder what his contractual obligations are to his publisher and the kind of conversations he must have with his editor. Maybe the first two books make enough money they can afford to just wait him out, idk.

I’d be interested to know if he used beta readers on the Wise Man’s Fear, because it read like SUCH a sloppy draft to me that in hindsight I’m shocked it ever went to print. I wonder who was reading some of those scenes and putting their stamp of approval on them. Maybe when you’re successful enough, people will simply tell you what you want to hear?

I have debated going back to the Name of the Wind, which I DID love, and trying to pinpoint what worked versus what I didn’t like about the sequel. It is going on a decade now, so I’m wondering if it will hold up, or if my maturity level might effect my opinion of it (it sure changed how I view ASOIAF, almost ten years on.)

Heather Reads Books wrote: "Thank you so much! I will bookmark this.

I am definitely interested in a 2022 buddy reread! It took me a long time to do the first reread - I started in late 2019, so by the time I finished ADWD e..."


I have both those prequels... and the cookbook published by fans that GRRM endorsed...and at this point who kniws what else...oh a book of maps I think?

I am very nerdy, wouldn't you agree?

Absolutely they can be incorporated into our reading journey through ASOIAF buddy reread. We can spread the reread over a couple of years even. Let's confer on this in December.

Heather Reads Books wrote: "Also, re: Rothfuss, that is interesting info, especially about the beta readers. I had heard he’s struggled with mental health issues but all I could really find when I looked him up recently is th..."

Well. I only read The Name of the Wind in last 4 or so years, and I am in my 60s, and liked it quite a bit. I thought the opening weak and confusing, but once the story of his youth started, it was wonderful - very Dickensian. The dragon addition at the end seemed a little out of sync but not badly.

Now I am curious about The Wise Man's Fear. It is sitting in one of the nightstand TBRs. But won't be read soon. Eventually though.

Rothfus was supposedly working with Lin-Manuel Miranda on adapting the books to tv series, film, and some online something...RPG maybe? That seems to have died...

Here's a link to a great panel at one of the cons that has GRRM, Rothfus, Abercrombie, and Gabaldon. I don't read Outlander. The first was a rare DNF for me. Make sure to watch through Diane's demonstration of her writing process. GRRM described it in his Not A Blog as a master class.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lUCz3c6...

Here is a write up about it I found just now when searching for video link.

https://www.tor.com/2014/07/28/sdcc-2...

Theresa wrote: "I have both those prequels... and the cookbook published by fans that GRRM endorsed...and at this point who kniws what else...oh a book of maps I think?

I am very nerdy, wouldn't you agree?"

Oh, I have that cookbook too! I've made a few things from the blog the book was inspired by, but only one thing from the cookbook proper since I bought it. Hmm, maybe it's time for another culinary project...

I don't have the book of maps, but it's probably only a matter of time.

"Absolutely they can be incorporated into our reading journey through ASOIAF buddy reread. We can spread the reread over a couple of years even. Let's confer on this in December."

Sounds good! I was just talking to my book club reading buddy and he recently started watching the TV show and expressed interest in maybe reading the books for our book club in the future, so I think I might be able to coordinate nicely if I play my cards right... ;)

Theresa wrote: "Here's a link to a great panel at one of the cons that has GRRM, Rothfus, Abercrombie, and Gabaldon. I don't read Outlander. The first was a rare DNF for me. Make sure to watch through Diane's demonstration of her writing process. GRRM described it in his Not A Blog as a master class."

So I've watched the panel and I think the part about beta readers is interesting. Rothfuss saying he had about 300 beta readers for The Name of the Wind sounds almost like an unrealistically high number to me, unless he's counting the number of people who may have workshopped it over time (I believe he has an MA in Creative Writing? I have a similar degree so I know all about workshopping). As I've said, I find that book far more polished, so maybe it's possible. He says he only had about 40 beta readers for The Wise Man's Fear and it made him "nervous" ... well, yes I think it should have, since I don't think what was published was a finished draft at all, lol. Still, even with only 40, I don't know how some of those sections I mentioned made it past any outside reader... unless none of his beta readers are women. >_>

He seems like a nice enough guy, though, but you're right, some of his OCD tendencies do come through. I get his point (and more concisely, Gabaldon's) about how it's worth consulting experts in the field of what you're writing about for accuracy's sake, but I sorta disagree with him about having a bunch of randos being your only beta readers. They might be able to help you with certain details but experts on writing will be able to tell you how to put the narrative together in the most cohesive and effective manner... which I find to be lacking in his second book. (Arguably, you could say that's an editor's job, but if a series ends up being a cash cow there's the phenomenon where pretty much anything goes for a publisher as long as it goes to print.)

Also, I did have a good chuckle at how it took him 12 years to realize a lute had 14 strings. Someone needs to up his Google game, that's all I'm saying there!

Diana Gabaldon seems to have the most professional process imo... but then again, with several advanced science degrees it's clear she knows how to do meticulous research.

Overall great panel though! The anecdote from GRRM about having to fill in maps for a publisher made me laugh. And his point about always striving to write the truth and building up characters as individuals is spot on advice.

It is a great panel, and I get something different from it every time I watch it.

300 beta readers is insane.

I have writers as clients and go to a lot of author signings, interviews, and talks. One thing I can say is that every writer's process is different. That has to be respected, I think. But no excuse for sloppy reaearch or copyediting.

One thing that is a possibility is that he had an idea for one book, that grew too big for one book, and under pressure became 2, though he did not really have a full story for 2. Then the huge success of first led to publisher and fan pressure for a third while 2nd being written. The guy is an academic, not going to have skill set or savvy to say no.

Suzanne Collins, so I heard, never intended Hunger Games to be a trilogy but caved to publisher and reader pressure. I think it shows in the wriring and plot of the book, glares out of it. It read like a book of another character in another series.