The Obscure Reading Group discussion

If you are FINISHED with "If on a Winter's Night a Traveler" (or if you don't care about spoilers), this is the discussion thread to discuss the second half of the book, which goes from the beginning of a chapter called "In a network of lines that enlace" through THE END.



Long ago there was a Broadway play called "What's It All About, Alfie?" Maybe a good name for this discussion would be "What's It All About, Italo?" Meaning: This is a great place to offer your theory on the novel's PURPOSE (along with any evidence you can summon).

Part One's discussion was fun because this is the Obscure Reading Group's most divisive choice yet, and I always like it when I read strong opinions from opposite positions. That said, some readers (like me) are in the middle here. But why? What worked and what didn't, if that's the case?

Please feel free to not only offer your answers/opinions but to ask your own questions. I'm sure there are enough to go around, right?

I am not finished yet. I read everyone’s comments. Interesting the various opinions people have. It appears to me Calvino mish mashed a few mystery styles into this book. I thought it odd , but I didn’t mind him going off in different directions. I think he wanted to direct the readers to follow the book/ books aNd conclude their own story or stories. Arabian Nights come to mind as well. We the reader thirst for the story/stories, that keep us to the end.

Carol wrote: "I am not finished yet. I read everyone’s comments. Interesting the various opinions people have. It appears to me Calvino mish mashed a few mystery styles into this book. I thought it odd , but I d..."

I remember reading once that Calvino adored the English word "feedback" and his English translator said how often Calvino would attempt to put it in his fiction, randomly, most of the time without context, because he loved it so much. His job at times was just removing the word "feedback" from the middle of a sentence. He was playful alright.

Matthew wrote: "Carol wrote: "I am not finished yet. I read everyone’s comments. Interesting the various opinions people have. It appears to me Calvino mish mashed a few mystery styles into this book. I thought it..."


It's too bad he's not around for all of THIS feedback. I will say this: More than most authors, he seemed to give a damn about his readers, at least if we enter this book in the record as evidence.

Some writers (who say they "write for themselves") don't even give readers a second thought. Not even when cashing royalty checks -- a gift from readers to writers (and their middlemen, the publishers). ;-)

I absolutely LOVED it and have since added a bunch of Calvino to my TBR pile! Thank you, ORG for turning me on to him!

This quote cuts to the heart of my own reading mindset:

"I must not be distracted if I do not wish to miss some valuable clue. Evert time I come upon one of these clumps of meaning I must go on digging around to see if the nugget extends into a vein" (255).

There's a bit of Travis Bickle (of Taxi Driver fame) obsessiveness here. Perhaps we're all just truth vigilantes?

There are also loud echos of Kafka.

The absurd lurks in every chapter, but "Around an Empty Grave" especially feels like K's parable, "Before the Law". It's "as if in this place all the doors served only for leaving and never for entering" (225) and "Everybody resembles everybody else" (230). Oquedal is our own "Penal Colony", and reading itself, our Harrow -- the machine we must subject ourselves to in order to understand. Instead of the words inscribed onto our skin, Calvino etches them into our mind.

We coconspire and witness: "Today it reads" (176) and by this very act, we cause creation.

"I read, therefore it writes" (176) or is it the other way around?

Mason wrote: "I absolutely LOVED it and have since added a bunch of Calvino to my TBR pile! Thank you, ORG for turning me on to him!

This quote cuts to the heart of my own reading mindset:

"I must not be distr..."


"I read, therefore it writes" indeed. And Calvino works both ways. There's a scene where the writer is watching a woman who is reading his book apparently as it is being written, as the author wants to see the effect (instantly!) if he were to write such and such.

Kafkaesque at times, I can see. It also brought Pirandello to mind. The guy whose characters were looking for their author. Here the writer is looking for his readers.

Nota Bene: I'm so glad that you -- and others here -- were really turned on to Calvino, Mason! It'll be a while before I come back to him, but I will, especially since those in the know say his other books are quite different.

Mason wrote: "I absolutely LOVED it and have since added a bunch of Calvino to my TBR pile! Thank you, ORG for turning me on to him!

This quote cuts to the heart of my own reading mindset:

"I must not be distr..."

Ah, Mason, I'm happy to read your comment.
I enjoyed reading this book, finding some parts engaging and charming and other parts disruptive and "ugly" but I was not lulled into boredom. From the little I read about Calvino's life, he pressed forward, experimented, and challenged himself; why, of course, he'd be challenging us readers as well.

I continued to return to Don Quixote and Jorge Luis Borges when I recognized parallels, yet I "look again" when you all proffer different authors and references. Perhaps that is the best part of this experience for me, and what good fortune if it had been an "experiment" on the part of the author. While I have Don Quixote open again on my pile, I also have "Labyrinths" by Jorge Luis Borges. I tried to find "The Mind's I" that I read in college but find it is now a rare book. With so many parallels, I'll be returning.

Do you think Calvino may have been creating pastiches or something similar? Well, whatever he chose to imagine, "sculpt," or play with, I admire him. Like you, I've now gotten other books by him. After I finish what I've started, I'll be reading more of him this summer.

Drawing from "Don Quixote" one last time, I was struck by this quote:

"From mirror to mirror—this is what I happen to dream of—the totality of things, the whole, the entire universe, divine wisdom could concentrate their luminous rays into a single mirror. Or perhaps the knowledge of everything is buried in the soul, and a system of mirrors that would multiply my image to infinity and reflect its essence in a single image would then reveal to me the soul of the universe, which is hidden in mine" (166).

No, I'm not going to go into more detail about this, but I encourage you all to read the two volumes of "Don Quixote" or "Don Quijote." I will again return to this, my favorite book, and also to different books with stories and essays by Borges. I've followed the comments so many of you have made, and now I'll be slowly reading those.

* * *

As for my reading of this? Thank you to the nominator. Enough people believed in this to vote for it, so I went along with the popular choice. Please know: When I first began reading, I found some of the disjointed ideas irritating. I stopped for a few days. I returned from the beginning and realized laughter -- sometimes lighthearted and sometimes dark -- set the tone for the book (or at least the overall reading). I would read a chapter at a time, and then I stepped away sometimes for hours or sometimes for a day before reading each new chapter. That worked for me, and I'm glad I followed that strategy.

* * *

Towards the end, I liked the story in which Calvino referred to "erasing" which I took as giving power again to the author -- Us Readers? -- to rewrite the stories and characters in our lives. His character tries to erase others but finds he cannot, and then he wonders if they are trying to erase him as well:

"I can’t wait to go into reverse, to make the things of the world exist again, one by one or all together, to set their variegated and tangible substance, like a compact wall, against the men’s plans of general vacancy. I close my eyes and reopen them, sure of finding myself on the Prospect again, teeming with traffic, the street lamps lighted at this hour, and the final edition of the papers in the kiosks. But instead: nothing. . . . With mounting terror I begin to realize the truth: the world I believed erased by a decision of my mind that I could revoke at any moment is truly finished" (249).

Ah, but with a twist, his world dream recreates again.
"She is here, she is opposite me, smiling, with that golden sparkle in her eyes, her small face a bit chapped from the cold. “Oh! It’s really you! Every time I walk on the Prospect I run into you! Now, don’t tell me you spend all your days out strolling! Listen: I know a café here at the comer, all lined with mirrors, and there’s an orchestra that plays waltzes. Will you invite me there?" (251)

That mirrors the original "I" in the story, the narrator who gets to marry Ludmilla, who loves reading and is willing to go to all the different bookstores and experts to learn a story. It IS a fun twist on "1001 Arabian Nights."

Ken wrote: "Mason wrote: "I absolutely LOVED it and have since added a bunch of Calvino to my TBR pile! Thank you, ORG for turning me on to him!

This quote cuts to the heart of my own reading mindset:

"I mus..."


Hello, Ken,

That Calvino could write in various styles impresses me. That he achieved success and acclaim and yet took chances and risked shaking people up (consider the people's opinions at the end of the book and also here in the group) impresses me even more.

I've picked up some authors and ideas from you. Thank you!
Thank you, also, for leading another discussion.

I'm a bit late to the final discussion, even though I finished the book a week or so ago! I really enjoyed Calvino's playfulness within this novel, a side of him I'm new to, having only read The Path to the Spiders' Nests prior to this (which is also brilliant). For me, the novel seemed to portray and represent the magical feeling that comes from sharing the love of a story with somebody. I eagerly awaited the scenes involving "you" (me? OK, got it, Calvino) and Ludmilla, and their desperation to piece together the book. Wait, which book? God knows...

This was my favourite quote from the novel. I forgot to make a note of the page number, but I know it's somewhere in Chapter 7:

You are eager to continue, so that you can then hand it on to her, to communicate again with her through the channel dug by others' words, which, as they are uttered by an alien voice, by the voice of that silent nobody made of ink and typographical spacing, can become yours and hers, a language, a code between the two of you, a means to exchange signals and recognise each other.

Lois wrote: "I'm a bit late to the final discussion, even though I finished the book a week or so ago! I really enjoyed Calvino's playfulness within this novel, a side of him I'm new to, having only read The Pa..."

Hello, Lois,

I agree!
I like your phrase, ". . . the magical feeling that comes from sharing the love of a story with somebody." That's a wonderful connection when meeting someone else who values stories the same way.

Now that I'm reviewing it and thinking about how to write about it, I think he was almost a shy Reader eager to "live" the different lives that emerged in the stories. He was like a Walter Mitty -- far droller at times, darker other times, ideally romantic, and so on -- emerging not in daydreams but in his reading.

Well, I now have another book to read. I definitely like the title, and now I wonder about that spider's nest.

I just finished it, and I am so glad that it was chosen! It has been on my tbr for such a long time, and I thoroughly enjoyed the reading. As Lois said, I definitely feel a sense of playfulness throughout, a tongue-in-cheek tone, by Calvino. It comes across to me, from beginning to end, as a celebration of everything to do with reading.

One quote that I marked (out of many!) is when he muses, "I would like to be able to write a book that is only an incipit, that maintains for its whole duration the potentiality of the beginning, the expectation still not focused on an object. But how could such a book be constructed? Would it break off after the first paragraph? Would the preliminaries be prolonged indefinitely? Would it set the beginning of one tale inside another, as in the Arabian Nights?" (173). I think he accomplished his goal, and masterfully!

One thought that occurred to me as I read was that the book is like one of those old carnival halls of mirrors, with each reflection containing yet another variation of all of the different aspects of readers and writers. He explores so many different issues connected to these two basic yet critical functions. English teachers are aware, when faced with the long list of curriculum standards that must be covered in their 50 minute class periods, of the enormity of the tasks concealed in the simple phrase "reading and writing." Calvino creates a web of intersecting ideas and issues that relate to and affects reading and writing, delving into them to expose the complexity that can lurk beneath the innocuousness.

Another thought I had when reading that was that Ermes Marana acted somewhat like a modern-day Tower of Babel, disrupting the ability of readers to bond with text and ultimately causing the authors to be unable to communicate with their readers. He leaves everyone wandering aimlessly, unable to connect in any meaningful way, each text banished to some nether region where it molders in obscurity, lost and unread.

Anyway, I know not everyone enjoyed it, but I loved it! I loved the part at the end where each reader analyzes how they personally approach reading, and also what he did with the titles of the different stories at the end. This was a home run for me! :)

Thrilled to see, Lois and Cindy, that you enjoyed it so much! It's definitely a "parts vs. whole" for many readers. Some seem to have enjoyed certain parts but not the whole, while others were swept away by both.

As a reader, I find I read certain books without even noticing the demarcations between "parts" and "whole." In ones like this, the fault lines seem well defined. But, as Calvino well knew, the differences between us are vast and as varied as we are.

Where he excelled, I think, is in his understanding of readers being both unique and similar in many ways, like people. And he tried to address that, which isn't easy, with varying degrees of success.

My favorite name in the book (forgive if I misspell it now)? Prof. Uzzi-Tuzzi.

I have been an avid reader as long as I can remember, and every once in a while I wonder what does that mean? What does it say about me? These days many "readers" participating in the discussions are "reading" by listening to books being read aloud. Although I think this is a valid way to enjoy books, it is not "reading". Even reading out loud to someone else is not "reading".

My spouse and I have been reading this book aloud to each other, and I'm sure it would have been a very different experience if I had just "read" it. This way, when I was the listener, there were many laugh out loud moments. My spouse's favourite passage: There is Marjorie, tied on a sofa, gagged. I release her. [...] "You're a bastard," she says to me.

For me, this book was an entertaining exploration of the experience of being a reader. Even with all the seeming disconnects, it's still a marriage plot. Two readers hooking up. Which pretty much describes my marriage.

One of my favourite characters was Irnerio, the guy to taught himself NOT to read. (This seems like an impossible action.) He loved books, and made art with them. From the illustrator who did an illustration for this book, I thought this was apropos--could have been one of Irnerio's pieces.



https://cargocollective.com/nzakharia...

Ginny wrote: "I have been an avid reader as long as I can remember, and every once in a while I wonder what does that mean? What does it say about me? These days many "readers" participating in the discussions a..."


Loved that illustration, Ginny. And love the thought of you and your spouse taking turns reading the book to each other. I've never done such a thing with my wife, though good friends of ours shared how, in the early months of the pandemic, they took turns reading Lorna Doone to each other. I was mightily impressed and surprised at their choice.

It's interesting when we try to define "reading," too. I think many share your traditional view -- that it's reading the written word, vs. listening to the spoken word.

As a retired English teacher (both middle and high school level), I can tell you that many of my reluctant readers *loved* being read to in class. I tried to get them to follow along in the book because I knew it had added educational benefit to both SEE and HEAR words, but they never did. Any time I looked up while reading, their eyes were affixed on me, enjoying the spoken word in every way while avoiding the task of following sentences on paper.

So, is there a difference? Yes. And does it get to the heart of what reading is or isn't? The jury's still out.

So glad you enjoyed the book!

I have a theory about readers vs listeners. To read a book, you must enjoy being both sedentary and solitary. Even though you are surrounded by the characters in a book, they are not "real." My daughter is a very social person who wants people around her, and also needs constant movement, even if it's just tapping her foot. The only way she got through high school was audio books, and at that time meant cassette tapes. She could listen while driving or riding, cleaning her room, taking a shower, etc. I, on the other hand, cannot listen because I am too easily distracted by things around me or even just my thoughts. I want peace and quiet to immerse myself in the words. I have noticed my theory plays out with others I have observed as well. Kudos to you, Ken, for realizing that students have different modes of learning.

I did not read Winter's Night because I realized very early on that it wasn't for me, but I have followed the discussion with interest. It always amazes me that the same book can elicit so many different reactions.

Diane wrote: "I, on the other hand, cannot listen because I am too easily distracted by things around me or even just my thoughts. I want peace and quiet to immerse myself in the words..."

That is totally me, although as long as people don't try to talk to me, I can lose myself in the book even if there is action around me. A pet peeve of mine is that it seems to be completely socially acceptable to drop out of a conversation to do stuff on a smart phone, but still rude to pick up a real book and drop out. People will stop talking to the person focused on their phone, but just keep on if a person is reading a book. Maybe us book readers need a movement.

Yes, exactly Ginny. Other readers will grant you your space and not interrupt, whereas non-readers figure you're not busy so can engage in conversation.

Totally agree. Reading is not considered a valid/vital experience by many (?most) non-readers and almost anything else takes precedence, like gossip, travel plans, dinner, etc. Maybe reading on a kindle will be misinterpreted as being on a phone and allowed to go on :-)

When I lived at home long, long ago, I was considered antisocial for leaving the communal television staring room for my bedroom where I could read in peace.

Which begged the question: How is watching a television with others in silence -- a passive activity -- "social"?

I have to leave the room or wait until everyone goes to bed to read. My wife used to be offended by that but she has learned that it is nothing personal, I just can't focus on what I am reading when there is background noise or when someone in the room keeps talking to me. This means that my reading time is sometimes short and only just before I go to bed because I don't want to spend the whole evening in my office upstairs and not talk to my wife.

This is probably, also, what doomed my interest in "If on a Winter's Night a Traveler". It is not the book's fault that I have been so busy at work the last several weeks that often I am too tired to read or, when I do, it is later in the evening when it is quiet but I found the book too needing of my attention to focus on.

However, at those times when I was clear-headed, I kept thinking "what's the point"? I liked the overall arc of the story of the two readers ending up together at the end and I liked the individual story starts but the rest of it just didn't catch my interest and I felt eager to just have the book done which is never a good sign. I thought I was being open-minded from the beginning after reading about how to approach this book but, it didn't help me in the end. So, 2 stars.

Although I stopped reading this book at the halfway point, I have enjoyed all of your comments. I too read aloud to my children, my students, and my husband. They listened. But the experience of literature is so absorbing it never seemed to matter that they were not “reading.” My husband has read many of Shakespeare’s plays to me in the evenings in front of our fireplace. I love hearing his way of interpreting the character’s voices.

And yes, Darrin, I too thought “What’s the point?” while making my way through Calvino. I probably missed something by stopping early, but I had miles of books to go before I sleep. As we said in the 60s, (Yes, we really did) “Peace out.”

I pushed to the end, Darrin and Sandra, and I concentrated. Sadly, I concluded there is no point. There were moments in the book I enjoyed (more at the beginning, since for me the little device of starting over again and again went on too long), but definitely not worth the time and effort required.

Ken - I suppose the difference for those who say TV is a "social" activity is that you are both watching the same thing, while only the reader is reading the book? I would always choose the book and then some wine and a lovely discussion for the "social" part!

Ginny, I love your comparison of reading and listening. My husband and I have read only one our two books like that in our long marriage, but we've never forgotten them.

I did really like what Calvino said about listening versus reading:
"When someone else is reading, it is difficult to make your attention coincide with the tempo of his reading: the voice goes either too fast or too slow.” I need time to stop and think when I read, and listening doesn't allow for this.

But Diane, yours is my favorite explanation of readers versus listeners! I wonder if a big part of it, for those of us who love solitude so much, is that we are so easily distracted, and relish the time away from all of that distraction?

Last time I tried to read this book I only got half way, so I was determined to finish and am glad I did. I found it mostly annoying, but I have enjoyed this discussion very much, as usual!

I think that could be a big part of it Kathleen. Some of it for me is that I can be surrounded by characters and their actions in a very real way through the story, without having to actually deal with them in reality.

Diane wrote: "I think that could be a big part of it Kathleen. Some of it for me is that I can be surrounded by characters and their actions in a very real way through the story, without having to actually deal ..."

Oh, that is so true for me too, Diane!

Kathleen, I’m not finished yet but I will. I like your description of the book as “annoying.” While there are parts I really like and sections that are quite clever, I find myself becoming impatient and, yes, annoyed.

Any final thoughts before this heads to the archives (and don't you just love the smell of the stacks in old libraries?).

Oops... I neglected to comment here upon finishing the book. My feelings are mixed. I found some sections really good and exciting while others were confounding and still others seemed silly. Such is my rather uninformed view of this experimental novel. As I believe someone else said above, all this for a boy meets girl story!?!

It reminds me (for no good reason) of that dark and stormy night when Coleridge and Shelley and Lord Byron and Mary Shelley had that competition to see what writer could out-wow the other writer.

I get the impression that Calvino was showing off, first for some fellow writer(s) and then for lookers-on. As we used to say in our early bike-riding days: "Look, Ma! No hands!"

Excellent comparison, Ken. This does seem like a competition of sorts, perhaps with himself, to see how long and how far he can keep it all going. Personally, I think he pushed just a bit too far, but I’m not an internationally acclaimed writer.

My final thoughts are that I loved it. I have very little experience with "experimental" fiction. The only other one I can really think of that I've read is Ulysses, and I just could not appreciate it. I know there are quite a few (much more learned) people who revere it, and I can see what he was doing, but I did not enjoy it--at all. Compared to that, this one was a delight. I think it worked for me because once I realized that this is not a traditional novel/plot structure, it freed me just to enjoy his prose and insights. I stopped trying to tie it into a linear storyline and focused on the ideas he is expressing. Anyway, not every book works for everyone (one of Calvino's points) and this one just happened to work for me, big-time! :)

I found a couple of articles discussing it, one of which posits that the structure actually represents a history of critical theory. The other classes it as "the anti-novel that may be the greatest twentieth-century book ever written on the theme of readers and reading of fiction." Anyway, I thought I would include the links for anyone who is interested.

Dactyl Review

"Critical Theory Through If On a Winter's Night a Traveler"

Cindy wrote: "My final thoughts are that I loved it. I have very little experience with "experimental" fiction. The only other one I can really think of that I've read is Ulysses, and I just could not appreciate..."

Thank you, Cindy! I'll be reading these resources. I greatly enjoyed this book, too.

Darrin wrote: "I have to leave the room or wait until everyone goes to bed to read. My wife used to be offended by that but she has learned that it is nothing personal, I just can't focus on what I am reading whe..."

Darrin, I could not wait to be done with this book. Had I not been part of this group, I would have given up on it after the first or second chapter.

Cindy, that is how I felt also. At least we can look forward to the next book.

Darrin wrote: "Cindy, that is how I felt also. At least we can look forward to the next book."

But, as October is still a distant project and as we don't want to "squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of" (Benjamin Franklin, if memory serves -- and it seldom does), let's enjoy the hell out of books of our own choosing this summer.*



* Because these are the books we are free to abandon at will, moving to the next in a very long line!

No worries! I am already well into several I am enjoying.

I have ordered some of the previously rejected titles from this group. Hopefully, I can get to one of them before October. So thanks everyone for all the great titles you have suggested.