Victorians! discussion

Welcome, Victorians, to the initial discussion for A Woman of No Importance! This week we read Acts I & II. The play starts at an English country house, where a party has gathered. Included among the guests are a young, pretty American girl and a protege of the hostess, a young man who works for his living and has just been offered a coveted position as secretary to a peer with a high political profile.

There is little action here at the beginning of the play, with the focus being on the witty, often biting dialogue that begins to reveal the themes of the play. What did you think of the banter in this first portion? I found it much sharper than in our first play (which was also Wilde’s first play). Through the dialogue, we discover the perspectives and philosophies of some of the characters, a few of which are quite amusing. We also discover that the young American, Miss Hester Worsley, is rather Puritanical (by British standards) and also outspoken, unafraid of voicing her opinion to the other members of the party.

In Act II, we find out that the young man with the new job offer, Mr. Gerald Arbuthnot, is actually the biological child of his prospective employer, Lord Illingworth. Mrs. Arbuthnot lives retired but is persuaded, on this auspicious occasion, to join the gathering to celebrate her son’s good fortune. She is horrified to realize that her son’s father is present and tries to leave but to no avail. When the two are left alone, their relationship quickly becomes apparent and all pretense is dropped. We discover that when their youthful relationship resulted in a pregnancy, Lord Illingworth refused to marry Mrs. Arbuthnot despite pressure from his family to do so. Scorning the offers of financial assistance, Mrs. Arbuthnot took her illegitimate child and vanished. She succeeded in passing herself off as a widow and raised young Gerald alone. Now the villain who destroyed her life is back and threatens to take control of her son. Unable to admit, even to her son, her past indiscretions, she has nothing to say when challenged to voice her concerns about the job offer and has to watch miserably as her son walks away with his father.

So what are your thoughts on the first two acts? As I said, I enjoyed the witty dialogue and even laughed out loud at a couple of lines! Wilde’s talent for barbed truths is certainly on display. What do you think about his portrayal of women here? There is a LOT of conversation about women’s behaviors, especially about their lack of common sense or reason. Is he being serious or satirizing commonly held beliefs?

In this play, we have another young person who is ignorant of their parentage. Do you believe Mrs. Arbuthnot is doing the right thing to keep this knowledge from her son, especially when his father can provide such powerful support for his career?

What do you think about the way America is portrayed in the play? Is Wilde a fan or a critic of the country? Is he denigrating America, or using it to criticize British manners and morals?

Please share your thoughts, questions, and favorite quotes!

Didn't read your comment in case it has spoilers, Cindy. :) I'll be starting this in a few day's time, and then will share my thoughts.

Piyangie wrote: "Didn't read your comment in case it has spoilers, Cindy. :) I'll be starting this in a few day's time, and then will share my thoughts."

Same here! :)

Michaela wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "Didn't read your comment in case it has spoilers, Cindy. :) I'll be starting this in a few day's time, and then will share my thoughts."

Same here! :)"

No problem, ladies--take your time! Looking forward to your thoughts whenever you are ready!

Unlike the previous play, Wilde’s wit came immediately to the fore from the beginning of Act One. I also laughed out loud at many of the quips, probably Lady Caroline’s being the funniest, although I couldn’t help laughing at Lord Illingworth’s comments even though I probably shouldn’t have.
I have not read or seen this play before and my first impression was that Wilde takes no prisoners when ridiculing the typical men and women of British high society. To use a sincere American girl (even if she is wealthy) as a foil for all their hilarious and somewhat ludicrous beliefs was a masterstroke. What puzzles me is why Hester dotes on Gerald so much when Gerald believes Lord Illingworth is some sort of God. Her respect for Gerald must be totally at odds with her disgust with Lord Illingworth. Or maybe she hasn’t found Lord Illingworth out yet. I am now desperate to get to the part when Illingworth attempts to win his bet. Is there a slight rake/puritan parallel here between Illingworth/Hester and Lord Darlington/Lady Windermere in the previous play?

I am not sure if the author is truly praising Americans or if his admiration is a bit tongue in cheek.

As for quotable lines, I think I could reproduce half of the dialogue in the first two acts. I will restrict myself to two from each of my favourite characters.

Lady Caroline speaking about Mr. Kelvin…..

‘ He must be quite respectable. One has never heard his name before in the whole course of one’s life, which speaks volumes for a man, nowadays.’

Lady Caroline again….

‘ I saw the governess, Jane. Lady Pagden sent her to me. It was before Eleanor came out. She was far too good-looking to be in any respectable household. I don’t wonder Lady Pagden was so anxious to get rid of her.’

Lord Illingworth……

’ the House of Commons really does very little harm. You can’t make people good by Act of Parliament,—that is something.’ …..

Kelvil. May I ask, Lord Illingworth, if you regard the House of Lords as a better institution than the House of Commons?
Lord Illingworth A much better institution, of course. We in the House of Lords are never in touch with public opinion. That makes us a civilised body.’

and finally this exchange between Lord Illingworth and Mrs. Allonby………..

‘ Lord Illingworth I never intend to grow old. The soul is born old but grows young. That is the comedy of life.
Mrs. Allonby And the body is born young and grows old. That is life’s tragedy.’

Trev wrote: "Unlike the previous play, Wilde’s wit came immediately to the fore from the beginning of Act One. I also laughed out loud at many of the quips, probably Lady Caroline’s being the funniest, although..."

I agree, Trev! As I said, I was agreeably surprised by how much more humorous and sophisticated the dialogue is in this play. I wonder if Wilde was fearful of unleashing too much sarcasm on his audience in his first time out of the gate, so he held back in Lady Windermere's Fan.

You chose some great quotes--I had marked several of these, myself. One I had additionally marked was this exchange between Lady Caroline and Lord Illingworth:

Lady Caroline: These American girls carry off all the good matches. Why can't they stay in their own country? They are always telling us it is the Paradise of women.
Lord Illingworth: It is, Lady Caroline. That is why, like Eve, they are so extremely anxious to get out of it.

I also liked this conversation between Lord Illingworth and Lady Allonby:

Lord Illingworth: People's mothers always bore me to death. All women become like their mothers. That is their tragedy.
Lady Allonby: No man does. That is his.

I also greatly enjoyed Lady Allonby's description of the "Ideal Man." I am very curious to hear your take on this, Victorians! Is Wilde being rather harsh in his portrayal of women expecting a man to instinctively know what they need or want, or that we often mean the opposite of what we say? Or is he satirizing the masculine view of women?

Another thing I enjoy (which Wilde does so well) are those remarks that have a twist at the end, such as when Mrs. Allonby tells Lady Stutfield: Well, I will tell you, if you solemnly promise to tell everybody else. The sentence just doesn't go where you think it will! There are a few of these here, but I think he really hits his stride with this technique in our next play, The Importance of Being Earnest.

Oscar Wilde dedicated this play to Lady de Grey, later Marchioness of Ripon, who was a close friend and one of his patrons. Here is a short, but fascinating, biography of this woman.

http://www.rohcollections.org.uk/Coll...

I'm mixed in my feelings regarding this play. I agree with Trev that Oscar Wild's sharp wit and satirical humour are seen from the onset in this play. But the first two acts lacked some of the vitality that we see in his other drawing-room plays. As a story, except for the revelations of the relationship between Lord Illingworth, Lady Arbuthnot, and George, nothing significant happens. He has devoted more space here to criticize the hypocrisy of the Victorian upper society he is famous for. :)

Lord Illingworth is such an unpleasant character, and I hope he'll receive his due. Lady Caroline, Lady Allonby, and Lady Stuttfield are the typical women representatives of the Victorian upper class. Hester, I feel, is Oscar's voice. But I'm a bit put out by her puritan views. At present, my feelings are with Mrs. Arbuthnot, the woman wronged and referred to Illingworth by "A Woman of No Importance". I hope he'll have to eat his words!

Cindy wrote: "Do you believe Mrs. Arbuthnot is doing the right thing to keep this knowledge from her son, especially when his father can provide such powerful support for his career?..."

This is a hard question to answer, Cindy. From the point of George's career prospects, it is perhaps wise to acknowledge his relations to Lord Illingworth. But how would he take it all in is another question. I can't quite understand George's character yet, but so far he strikes as a weak character to me. So perhaps, he might not think too deep on the matter, being intimidated by the power and wealth of Lord Illingworth. It is difficult to foresee whether George will be quite willing to forgive Lord Illingworth's sin towards her mother, shaming her and degrading her and abandoning them both when they most needed him, when they were vulnerable. It is true that Mrs. Arbuthnot entertains more selfish motives in not wanting to tell George the truth of his parentage. She fears she'll lose him to Illingworth. But can we really blame her for wanting to hold onto George, the one source of happiness of her dreadful existence?

I think Wild brought Hester in to show the contrast between the British and American societies. He was critical of the social inequality at home and maybe is praising the equality practiced in America. Also, I think he admired and preferred the progressive American views to the more conventional (and hypocritical) views of Victorian society.

I found this Wilde play rather dragging in the first two acts, except towards the end of Act II, when the relationship between Lord Illingworth, Mrs. Arbuthnot and Gerald become obvious. I took an immediate dislike to Illingworth, and wish Gerald wouldn´t accept the job, which doesn´t lie in his decision.

I too thought it dragged a bit until the reveal at the end of Act II. The back and forth with Wild(e)'s wit makes the text flow easily but trying to keep track of the numerous characters introduced in Act I is probably responsible for it dragging a bit. As of now, it seems similar in style and theme to "Fan."

Sorry to correct, but as I´m seeing it for the second time, the author is spelled WILDE. Similar with Jane Austen, who´s not written like the city in Texas. ;)

Michaela wrote: " the author is spelled WILDE. "

I really thought I did 'know' that, but I spelled it 'Wild' anyway, so I guess that 'knowledge' wasn't engrained well enough in my brain.
Based on this, I'm going to have to watch it when I next spell the name of the author of Emma too.

Piyangie wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Do you believe Mrs. Arbuthnot is doing the right thing to keep this knowledge from her son, especially when his father can provide such powerful support for his career?..."

This is a..."

Yes, Piyangie, I think Gerald might find it difficult to forgive his newfound father for refusing to marry his mother, but I'm also pretty sure he would struggle with the concept of his own mother as a "fallen woman," which she definitely would be considered for having sex before marriage. It would be an earth-shattering revelation for him, for sure!

Brian wrote: "As of now, it seems similar in style and theme to "Fan."..."

It is extremely similar in plot device, with both being about secret parentage. In both, the adult child is interacting with their own parent, completely oblivious of the fact that they're even related. I wonder why Wilde seems to have such a preoccupation with this idea? Unknown parentage is an issue in The Importance of Being Earnest (and comes up in Act I, so not a spoiler!), as well.

I’m impressed by the way Wilde shifts between the light and the dark. I find the final scenes in Act II to be very moving. Perhaps more so because Act I is so light.

Michaela wrote: "I found this Wilde play rather dragging in the first two acts, except towards the end of Act II, when the relationship between Lord Illingworth, Mrs. Arbuthnot and Gerald become obvious. I took an ..."

I agree that parts of the first two acts felt a little tedious, even though I enjoyed the wit of the characters. Perhaps that's part of the commentary, that all the wealthy do is sit around the drawing room and talk about what's wrong with the rest of the country.

When Illingworth first entered, I had the same impression I had of Darlington in the first play. He makes light of everything and takes pleasure in "shocking" others with his cynicism dressed up as a happy-go-lucky attitude. I still think these characters behave the way I imagine Wilde would have in a similar social situation. Almost like they are begrudgingly engaging in all the social expectations of the time, even though they wouldn't know what else to do if such things were no longer expected of them.

Now the last scenes of Act Two have finally grabbed my attention and made me interested to see what happens next.