The Sword and Laser discussion

Our July pick will be Consider Phlebas by Iain M. Banks

I've been putting off trying Culture books for awhile. I've heard some folks say this book is a bit of a tough entry and that The Player of Games is a better one.

Personally I hate skipping books and always read in series order, so I guess I'll finally give this a go.

Having revisited this one relatively recently, I'm not going to re-re-read this month, but look forward to seeing what you all make of it.

I have read every culture book and this is such a good start to the story. I think I might even have it in hard back

I always wanted to try Banks so I'm looking forward this.

I’ve read all of Banks’s SF (and a lot of his mainstream work, too). He was a giant. Consider Phlebas is a fascinating work in that it plays a lot with the nature of heroism and with the idea of which side is the right one. I would add that I think the Culture novels can be read in any order. No two books have common characters. None is a sequel to another and even major events like wars and novae have no bearing on other tales. I’ve read CP three times already but I may go again with the group.

I'm defiantly in for a re-read! Although not the best in the series it's the right place to start. As Richard points out, it's hard to tell who are the good guys and who are the bad guys in most of this book.

I might be an outlier here. I had to force myself to finish Consider Phlebas because it was too slow in some parts, and plot twists had been telegraphed way in advance. Above all, I just hated the protagonist. The Culture didn't hurt him or his loved ones - he simply disagreed with their philosophy, and that was somehow supposed to justify his trail of mayhem across the galaxy. The dude was a space parasite. :-/ The torture porn in the middle was rather off-putting, too.

Never before have I met a less sympathetic protagonist. Judging by the book's reviews here on Goodreads, I'm glad that I'm not the only person who thought that way. I chose not to read the rest of the Culture series because some reviewers said they had the same flaws: uneven pacing, with plot twists that could be seen a mile away.

Grigory wrote: "I might be an outlier here. I had to force myself to finish Consider Phlebas because it was too slow in some parts, and plot twists had been telegraphed way in advance. Above all, I just hated the ..."

I read this so long ago (32-1/2 years ago!) that I don’t recall the details, but your description sounds a lot like many white American men these days.

Trike wrote: "I don’t recall the details, but your description sounds a lot like many white American men these days."

On the back of the uncorrected book proof of Consider Phlebas (1987), English author Fay Weldon is quoted: "Iain Banks is the great white hope of contemporary British literature"

Have we read any other "great white hopes"?

To new readers of this series, now you can see where SpaceX gets the names for the rocket lander barges from.

I've never heard of this author or series before, interested to read it. The cover of the original edition looks like it could be right out of an Analog magazine.

i found a used copy online it will take a bit to get here but willing to give it a go. I should be finished with my other books by then.

Sembazuru wrote: "To new readers of this series, now you can see where SpaceX gets the names for the rocket lander barges from."

This makes me want to read it less. ;)

terpkristin wrote: "Sembazuru wrote: "To new readers of this series, now you can see where SpaceX gets the names for the rocket lander barges from."

This makes me want to read it less. ;)"

Considering that the Culture series was written long before SpaceX started, it is a bit unfair to damn the book series just because someone at SpaceX (I honestly don't know who makes the naming decisions...) likes the book series. Kinda backwards reasoning there. ;-P

It was mostly a joke, hence the winky face. But based on everything I've read about this book, I'm not interested.

BUT THAT'S WHY I'M IN S&L. I try to try all the books. So I've already procured them (kindle and audible) and downloaded the audio. :D So we shall see...

terpkristin wrote: "It was mostly a joke, hence the winky face. But based on everything I've read about this book, I'm not interested.

BUT THAT'S WHY I'M IN S&L. I try to try all the books. So I've already procured t..."

Same...though I am not good at reading them all but I usually to the list. Like I skipped this month, but though I need to read this one. Plus I'm here for the Discord. LOL

I read this a long time ago and enjoyed it; I will be up for a re-read wit the group.

I enjoyed most of the later books more - I remember thinking that The Player of Games in particular was excellent, but in hindsight I am glad I started with CP

Hmm.

The Culture series is generally regarded as one of the best overall SF series of the last 20 or 30 years. I love the books and the loss of Banks to cancer was and is a huge hit to the field.

I also really don't like this as an introduction to the series because it is very polarizing, not like most of the other books and risks putting people off a what is overall a fantastic set of SF novels.

So, if you do bounce off this book don't give up. Try The Player of Games. If you bounce off BOTH, then yeah, the books aren't for you. But Phlebas a very odd novel, especially as one's first exposure to the Culture.

I loved this book but seem to recall that it is quite dense so some may find it slow. If I had to compare it to something then maybe Hyperion by Dan Simmons, not in terms of plot, just feel.

The AIs mathematically know (to their satisfaction) that the Culture is Right™. The central conflict is always "Can/should/must we interfere with other civilizations if we mean well?" This book is from the other side's perspective.

Horza, a left over biological munition from a past war, is doing what he thinks is right. If one is a weapon and one knows AIs are the worst thing in the universe, what else can one do? Weapons don't worry about collateral damage (and neither does Banks). I never liked Horza per se, but respected his struggle.

I've reread the series a few times and many of the ideas I first encountered with Banks stick in my mind long after. If some of his ideas stick with you, try another one based on the description. Order doesn't really matter.

Consider Phlebas: Look at the bad Han Solo-type tilting at windmills for our amusement!
The Player of Games: Tight, fun, appeals to nerds who know their gaming skills will come in handy someday.
Use of Weapons: The twist one. Don't think, just enjoy.
The State of the Art: I just realized I never found this one in print before. Yay!
Excession: Scifi catnip for my teenage self. A name for something so powerful you can't define it? Yes, please. Plus the little drone that could.
Inversions: Culture citizens in low-tech feudal society? If that's your thing.
Look to Windward: Pretty darn angst-y, but what a spectacle.
Matter: Banks loves his toys. Dyson sphere, Ringworld? Yawn. How about a Shellworld? And many tech levels like Well World without magic.
Surface Detail: One of the story lines in this one haunts me. It obliquely plays into the downside of being immortal.
The Hydrogen Sonata: It was hard to read this one knowing that I wouldn't read any more by this man. I loved Vyr and her reluctant hero role.

Owen:

I think this is an excellent summary of Phlebas...

"The AIs mathematically know (to their satisfaction) that the Culture is Right™. The central conflict is always "Can/should/must we interfere with other civilizations if we mean well?" This book is from the other side's perspective."

The problem is that if this is one's first Culture book you don't know the Culture at all. What it is, whether it appears (to us) to be benevolent or at least well-intentioned.

On Player... It's about games, but no one should think this is anything like Cline's books, etc. It's most definitely not a 'gamer' book in the vein of Ernie Cline. There's very serious stuff going on for most if the book and some deep themes... but it does show us a little of what the culture is.

Use of Weapons is a masterpiece. Two stories, interleaved and told in reverse of one another.

Now I want to re-read the series.

Phlebas is probably the hardest of his Culture books to get through. Possibly not the best one to dive into (you only need to read it tangentially before Look to Windward).

Banks is. giant of SF and we should read one of his, not sure why this one. If you struggle try one of the others (Owen's post is great for this).

I really like books with MeatF&%$£ in them... The ship names are the best (and they are the best characters).

The Culture is a great post scarcity society and Phlebas happens outside of it.

So this was my summation of the book when I read it about two years ago. And posted it in that years “What else are you reading”.

“Finished Consider Phlebas. I’ve been slowly reading it while flying. It was OK. But I think I’ve heard this is not Iain M. Banks best entry in the series, so I may try another.

I liked some of the world building, but not all. The universe as a whole seemed cool. It seemed to get bogged down in it in the middle when describing several new places in realitivley quick succession. Same thing for character development, some was decent, but some wasn’t. There is even a part where several new characters are introduced, with back story, and then nothing comes of them. We barley here from them again in the same scene, let alone the rest of the story.

The climatic ending seemed like a combination of an action movie script, and a role playing dungeon crawl. It was once again OK, but very much relied on action movie tropes, and using cut aways to build pace and tension.

My understanding is this is early in the authors career, and that is probably where most of these weak spots come from, although a stronger editor might have been able to help him out of some of it. If he continued to improve, I could see enjoying some of his other work. Did he?”

Rob wrote: "Our July pick will be Consider Phlebas by Iain M. Banks"
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Cool! I think I even have that waiting on me to read it.

I bounced off this one when I tried to read it a couple of years ago. All I really remember about it was that it starts with the protagonist about to be executed by being deluged with sewage. Gross.

Anyway, I’ve dug it out of my kindle library and I’m going to try picking up where I left off (at 22%) to see if I can get through it this time.

I’ve enjoyed some of Iain Banks’ other books (Transition, The Crow Road) but I couldn’t get on with this one. Maybe his space opera isn’t for me... we shall see!

(Side note: Transition was published in the UK under Iain Banks (his litfic identity) but in the US under Iain M Banks (his SF identity) just to confuse everyone. I would describe it as a science fiction book (it’s about a drug that enables you to travel between different universes with different versions of human history) but it definitely isn’t space opera)

If you have an Apple device, it's worth checking out the iBook store for a cheaper copy.

On the Australian iBooks store there were 2 different eBooks of Consider Phlebas one was AU$12.99 the other was AU$4.99.

Obviously I bought the version that was 8 bucks cheaper. Everything looks the same as the more expensive version. Different covers and slightly different formatting (in sample versions), but the exact same content.

Really looking forward to this. I'm a huge Banksie fan but haven't read this un in years. I have all the paperbacks but have been going through the process of adding the books to my kindle and audible libraries an advance of a re-read of the full sequence. so am delighted this has been chosen.


As others have said, CP may not be the most accessible of his novels but if it grabs you, it really does grab you.

Are we saying Flee-bus, Fleb-ass or something between?

TRP wrote: "Are we saying Flee-bus, Fleb-ass or something between?"

I've always said the former, but I missed out on studying T.S. Eliot

Grigory wrote: "I might be an outlier here. I had to force myself to finish Consider Phlebas because it was too slow in some parts, and plot twists had been telegraphed way in advance. Above all, I just hated the ..."

I had the same experience. This book is recommended by so many people who I respect that I really wanted to like it.

On my first try I got about a quarter of the way through, and then gave up because I just couldn't stand the main character.

On my second try I gritted my teeth, got to about half way - then had to lem it because - well (view spoiler)[there was utterly foul stuff pushing me away and, to be frank, I still didn't care about the main character so why should I put up with reading disturbing scenes if I don't care who lives or dies (hide spoiler)].

So I do recommend trying out new things, everyone likes different things,maybe you'll like this one - as Tom often says, your mileage may vary. One of my favourite series is Julian May's "The Galactic Milieu" and I know people who have been utterly freaked out by those books.

So all I'm saying is already considered as much Phlebas as I can, and I'll enjoy listening in, but I'll skip this one myself.

I always appreciate when S&L picks a book from a series that people can get into if they love the first one. I've read 2-3 of these and didn't gel much with them, but will look forward to the discussion.

"I always appreciate when S&L picks a book from a series that people can get into if they love the first one"

Except, this is really very different from the rest, so... that doesn't really work here. In fact, this is one of those instances where liking the book doesn't mean you will like the series and disliking it doesn't mean you won't like the rest.

For those not familiar with the Culture books, you should know that this isn't a series that's a long, overarching story like ASioF or Wheel of Time. It's a series of books all set in (very roughly) the same general time in the Culture but with a single exception I can think of, there are no recurring characters and the stories don't have a sequence or arcs.

Good luck pronouncing "Consider Phlebas", Veronica.

In my head, I say "Flee-bass". I could be wrong.

Tamahome wrote: "Good luck pronouncing "Consider Phlebas", Veronica.

In my head, I say "Flee-bass". I could be wrong."

When I talked it over with friends we all said "Flee-bass" too.

Ive been wanting s&l to read IMB's for a long time now. Really looking forward to this month and i hope peopke enjoy it. Definitely up for a re-read lol

William wrote: "Tamahome wrote: "Good luck pronouncing "Consider Phlebas", Veronica.

In my head, I say "Flee-bass". I could be wrong."

When I talked it over with friends we all said "Flee-bass" too."

I just checked the audiobook and the narrator pronounces it “FLEE-bus”.

Which is a relief, because that’s how I’ve been pronouncing it all these decades.

I tried to see if Banks himself says it in any of his interviews, but I couldn’t find one readily. Sometimes his Scottish accent is nearly impenetrable to me, so I’m not sure it would help anyway.

I guess we're all going to flee on that bus then ;-)

Just for chuckles I tried Phlebas in several languages in Google's translator since you can ask it to try to pronounce words with different languages' rules. Not sure how accurate it is, but it can be fun to do.

I first tried to find Phoenician because according to Wikipedia's disambiguation Ian Banks named this book after the character "Phlebas the Phoenician" from T. S. Eliot's poem "The Waste Land". (I don't know that poem, I wonder if there are any links from the poem to this book other than the character name...) Unfortunately, the translator page didn't have Phoenician. Then thinking that Banks is Scottish I tried Scots Gaelic, but google doesn't have voice output for Scots Gaelic. Then looking for a language that might fit geographically to Phoenician, I chose (perhaps poorly, I'm not sure what modern languages have Phoenician in its roots) Arabic. The pronunciation there is "flee-BASS".

BTW, the auto translate tries to choose Hindi as the origin language for Phlebas, pronouncing it as "fleh-BAHS", and it translates to "first bus"... lol! Checking the pronunciation in English I get "FLEE-bus".

William wrote: "I guess we're all going to flee on that bus then ;-)"

Better than the flea-bus, sez I.

Started it last week. First impression is it feels pretty light about 20% in. Meaning character wise not a lot of depth so far except for the lead, still very much setting things up.

It's interesting enough I'll keep going, don't know if this will be spring board me into reading all of the Culture yet.

Rick wrote: "Hmm.

The Culture series is generally regarded as one of the best overall SF series of the last 20 or 30 years. I love the books and the loss of Banks to cancer was and is a huge hit to the field...."

Rick's advice to read this and "Player of Games" is excellent, the Culture is amazing, but if neither of these 2 books get you, the rest wont as well. I'd really be interested in hearing what Science Fiction someone likes if they don't like the Culture Books, I think the Culture, Neal Asher's Polity, and the Frank Herbert Dune books (none of his son's necrophiliac work counts!) are the greatest SF universes out there.

I just realized I've always thrown an extra "e" in there, I thought it was "Flee-bee-us"

Just been in my local book store (which is large)... Endless Asher which is strongly influenced by the Culture novels and no Banks :-(

John (Nevets) wrote: "My understanding is this is early in the authors career, and that is probably where most of these weak spots come from, although a stronger editor might have been able to help him out of some of it. If he continued to improve, I could see enjoying some of his other work. Did he?”

Banks first published book was the Wasp Factory which was successful largely as a result of the notoriety it gained. Consider Phlebus was published three years later. It may have been consciously written to try and get the same reaction in SF or just to try and give readers who enjoyed the Wasp Factory, but wouldn't normally read SF, a reason to dip their toe in a new genre.
Most of Banks 80's and early 90s works contain an element of simmering resentment directed at the 'Establishment'. He was, after all, a Scot living in Thatcher's Britain.
That does subside and there is a distinct mellowing as he gets older.
I'm not a good person to appraise the level of 'craft' in his writing but I would assume that he got better with practice. Most of us do, right?

I wholeheartedly recommend both Excession and Use of Weapons (with the caveat that UoW has some deeply disturbing subject matter).
Also The Crow Road and Espedair Street as non-SF. I read a passage from ES at a friends engagement once.

I've read Use of Weapons a while ago, but it barely seemed like science fiction to me. Fancy literary tricks just annoy me.

"Consider Phlebas" is from a T.S. Elliot poem called "The Waste Land", thanks to this youtube review. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhyc3...

"Look To Windward", another Culture book, is also from that poem.

Here's the poem: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...

Stewart wrote: "John (Nevets) wrote: "My understanding is this is early in the authors career, and that is probably where most of these weak spots come from, although a stronger editor might have been able to help..."

I read The Wasp Factory at far too young an age and it’s scarred me for life. It was literally decades before I could bring myself to pick up something else by Banks - the other books of his I’ve read rely far less on shock value.

This discussion is not, overall, making me feel like I particularly want to carry on with my second attempt at Consider Phlebas...

Ruth wrote: "I read The Wasp Factory ..."

The Wasp Factory....or dear goodness....why did you have to remind me? I've been suppressing that memory for most of two decades...literal nightmare material!

Tamahome wrote: ""Consider Phlebas" is from a T.S. Elliot poem called "The Waste Land", thanks to this youtube review. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhyc3...

"Look To Windward", another Culture book, is also ..."

And "Look to Windward" is also pseudo sequel to "Consider Phlebas". It refers to the events in the first book but 200 years later. That's about all the two have in common though.