Glens Falls (NY) Online Book Discussion Group discussion

I came across the following today. Thought it might be of interest to some:

" 'No Fear Shakespeare' puts Shakespeare's language side-by-side with a facing-page translation into modern English—the kind of English people actually speak today."

LINK: http://nfs.sparknotes.com/

All No Fear Shakespeare Titles (Free online)
As You Like It
The Comedy of Errors
Henry IV, Part I
Henry IV, Part II
Henry V
Hamlet
Julius Ceasar
King Lear
Macbeth
The Merchant of Venice
A Midsummer Night's Dream
Much Ado About Nothing
Othello
Richard III
Romeo and Juliet
Sonnets
The Taming of the Shrew
The Tempest
Twelfth Night

NOTE: I am posting a duplicate of this message at our "Sources of Information" section, which can be found at:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/group_...

I used a Shakespeare book like that when I "taught" Shakespeare in high school---you may gain comprehension but you lose the majestic poetry of the original---not that my students didn't already butcher that beyond recognition.
I recall when we were reading aloud parts from "Romeo and Juliet," and one young lady declaimed, "...that which we call a rose would be as SWEAT by any other name".

Speaking of Peter deVries , he once said "I love writing, but I hate the paperwork!"

Arnie wrote: "I used a Shakespeare book like that when I "taught" Shakespeare in high school---you may gain comprehension but you lose the majestic poetry of the original..."

The same thing happens when they "translate" the Bible into modern English. The beauty is lost.

Below is an example of the original text and then the modern text at "No Fear Shakespeare":
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ORIGINAL:
"What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet."

MODERN:
"What does a name mean? The thing we call a rose would smell just as sweet if we called it by any other name."

FROM: http://nfs.sparknotes.com/romeojuliet...
"Romeo And Juliet", Act 2, Scene 2
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So much is lost that it hurts!

And yet, it's nice to be able to understand the poetry. Once you understand it, you can go back and appreciate the poetry even more.

When I first started reading the Bard, believe me, I liberally used the footnote translations.
After a while though , you begin to know what many of the words mean and become less and less reliant on translation.
I will admit it was quite a struggle convincing the students that "wherefore" meant, "why", not "where"!

Personally, as a teacher I always felt it was ludicrous to try to teach Shakespeare to youngsters who had serious problems with every day English.

Arnie wrote: "... Personally, as a teacher I always felt it was ludicrous to try to teach Shakespeare to youngsters who had serious problems with every day English."

I would think that Shakespeare would be reserved for the gifted kids. No sense frustrating kids who are already frustrated with everyday language. Seems to me that Shakespeare, in that case, would be a huge turn-off, as it probably is to much of the population. :)

I didn't like Shakespeare until I got an edition that had explanations on one page & the text on the other. By being able to read a synopsis of what happened & explanations of odd words & usages, Shakespeare was fun to read. Before that, it was BORING.

I can't recall what the editions were, but I still have a few at home. They were fantastic & I highly recommend them. After reading a few of his plays like that, I could read a play without the cheat sheet with only an occasional question.

One thing I think school curriculum designers forget is that drama is an art form that's meant to be performed, and to be experienced by the audience in that fashion --not read as a text, like a story or an essay. (True, in the 18th and early 19th centuries, a lot of people read plays as a substitute for fiction, because they often didn't have access to much of the latter; but that's not the case anymore.) They think, "Oh, these plays are a big part of our literary heritage; students MUST be introduced to them!" But while there's a case for reading a play if you don't ever expect to see it performed, or you really want to just study what the author wrote, it's not the best way to introduce high school students to the glories of literature.

That's especially true of plays like Shakespeare's that are written in an archaic form of English, when (as Arnie noted) a lot of students have trouble with even modern English. In junior high and high school, I had to read Julius Caesar and Macbeth; I could mostly handle the language (with recourse to footnotes) and was more motivated than most of my classmates, but I missed a lot of nuances that I was able to pick up only when the teacher showed film clips of some scenes being acted. If I could have seen the whole thing that way, I'd have gotten a lot more out of it (and I'd bet money that a lot of my classmates didn't get anything out of it)!

Back then, of course, they didn't have VHS/DVD technology; but there's no excuse not to use it now. When we were homeschooling our girls, I didn't make them read Shakespeare --but I did assign the Ambrose Video Shakespeare collection tapes of Macbeth and Hamlet (and performances of some of the old medieval plays --my oldest actually liked Everyman better than Shakespeare). That proved to be a lot more painless,and more popular!

Jim wrote: "I didn't like Shakespeare until I got an edition that had explanations on one page & the text on the other. By being able to read a synopsis of what happened & explanations of odd words & usages, ..."

I tried to do something similar with opera librettos. Alas! I learned only to enjoy the melodies.

I never did explore much Shakespeare. However, I do love certain Shakespeare sonnets and quotes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sonnet 29
by William Shakespeare

When, in disgrace with Fortune and men's eyes,
I all alone beweep my outcast state,
And trouble deaf heaven with my bootless cries,
And look upon myself and curse my fate,
Wishing me like to one more rich in hope,
Featured like him, like him with friends possessed,
Desiring this man's art and that man's scope,
With what I most enjoy contented least;
Yet in these thoughts myself almost despising,
Haply I think on thee, and then my state
(Like to the lark at break of day arising
From sullen earth) sings hymns at heaven's gate;
For thy sweet love remembered such wealth brings
That then I scorn to change my state with kings.

-William Shakespeare, Sonnet 29
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On the other hand:
=========================================
"When I read Shakespeare I am struck with wonder That such trivial people should muse and thunder In such lovely language."
-D. H. Lawrence

"Now we sit through Shakespeare in order to recognize the quotations."
-Oscar Wilde

ABOVE TWO ARE FROM: http://www.william-shakespeare.info/w...
===================================================

That happens to be the only Shakespeare sonnet that I committed to memory many years ago!!

I always prefer to READ Shakespeare than to watch a performance---Reading gives you the time to absorb exactly what is being said---whereas, watching plays that we are less familiar with---well, good luck!!

Werner wrote: "One thing I think school curriculum designers forget is that drama is an art form that's meant to be performed, and to be experienced by the audience in that fashion --not read as a text, like a st..."

Well said, Werner. However, I still can't make myself watch Shakespeare dramatized anywhere. My eyes glaze over. I think it's too late for me. There are too many other things I enjoy. So Shakespeare isn't on top of any of my lists.

Arnie wrote: " That happens to be the only Shakespeare sonnet that I committed to memory many years ago!!
I always prefer to READ Shakespeare than to watch a performance---Reading gives you the time to absor..."

Coincidence! (g) (re: Sonnet 29)

In H.S. we had to memorize: "The quality of mercy is not strained...". That's about all I remember, but I have it in my files:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The quality of mercy is not strain'd, / It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven / Upon the place beneath: it is twice bless'd; / It blesseth him that gives and him that takes."
-William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Arnie, I can see your point about needing time to absorb the words. Sometimes, when I listen to audio books, the reader talks too fast. Nothing registers. Readers should realize this and slow down, IMO.

I wonder if when he was courting his wife he said "Ann hath a way about her!!"

Arnie wrote: " I wonder if when he was courting his wife he said "Ann hath a way about her!!""

(G) Speaking of Ann Hathaway, below are two links:
WIKI LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Hat...
GOODREADS LINK: _Shakespeare's Wife_ by Germaine Greer

Did you ever see Mel Gibson do Hamlet? That was great. I think even our kids sat through that.

You are right on the button, Werner. Shakespeare is better when performed or at least read aloud by someone who can get the rhythm right.

A funny problem with Shakespeare's plays was pointed out by one of my kids. They said something about how the plot had just been done to death! When I pointed out the reason that it seemed old & why so many others had used it, they got a big, "OH!" look on their face. This is where the plot started! Then it was a lot better for them. How exactly that point had passed them by, I'm not sure, but I think they were being forced to read it too young.

That's a perennial problem with teaching the classics. I was turned off to many of them because they were forced on my before I could appreciate them.

This discussion motivated me to read up on Hamlet. At SparkNotes, I found a plot overview at:
http://www.sparknotes.com/shakespeare...

The SparkNotes character List is here:
http://www.sparknotes.com/shakespeare...

Another plot summary can be seen at IMDb:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116477/p...
QUESTION: Who are Hamlet's "two well-meaning friends" mentioned at the IMDb webpage above?
ANSWER FOUND LATER: Rosencrantz and Guildenstern

About the plot, the IMDb summary describes the plot as "an incredibly convoluted plot--the most complicated and most interesting in all literature".

Yes, I think so!!!

Jim was this an unintentional play on words---"The plot had just been done to death" re: the tragedies?
If so, then I'm claiming it.

You're spot on about being forced to read great classics when too young to appreciate them.
The ONLY booik I enjoyed in school was Huck Finn.
Speaking of Mr. Clemens, he's quoted as saying "I'll haunt any teacher who makes his students read my books!"

Arnie wrote: "...You're spot on about being forced to read great classics when too young to appreciate them...."

Perhaps the teachers should give the students a choice of classic books to read so that they wouldn't feel completely forced. They'd have the perception of being given a choice. They'd also "be exposed" to at least the existence of the material (title and author).

Then each student might give a report to the class on what he/she read.

In the high school I taught at, the students'idea of a book report was opening any two or three pages at random and copying them verbatim.
I wish I were kidding.
At least when I was a student back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I bought the Classic Comics versions!!

Arnie wrote: " In the high school I taught at, the students'idea of a book report was opening any two or three pages at random and copying them verbatim. I wish I were kidding.At least when I was a student back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I bought the Classic Comics versions!!"

I still have a few old Classic Comics. LOL

Even copying (in a book report) can be beneficial. Better than doing nothing. They might learn to appreciate by osmosis. :) Students might be advised to use quote marks.

I once had a student who not only copied the kid next to him's answers, but his NAME TOO!!

Again I wish I were jesting.

Arnie wrote: " Jim was this an unintentional play on words---"The plot had just been done to death" re: the tragedies?.."

Actually, no. I've heard it several times over the years. It's a 'funny once', but it is fun the first time. You'd be surprised by how few people get it. Good man!

;-)

Joy, I took a Science Fiction course one year & they allowed us to choose from a list. It was a short, fairly horrible list. Think of an abbreviated summer reading list from Hell. As much as I love SF, I hated that original selection & spent quite a few hours in the library to make a case for changing it.

Thinking back on that... Do you remember how HARD it used to be to research things? Finding alternative 'classic' SF books was a real chore. Today, I'd google it & have alternatives & reasons in minutes. Then it took hours & half the materials I needed too days to get to since our school library didn't have them.

Cliff Notes were & are a favorite of mine. There are a lot of old books & stories that are just that - old - & there are so many of them! Trudging through many of them is just not worth my time, but knowing the basics of the stories, the characters & such is since so much modern literature is based on them or alludes to them. I passed many an English course by reading the Cliff Notes & skimming the books to pick up just enough extraneous info to fool the teacher into thinking I'd actually read it.

Yes, Jim, I remember how hard research was. As a history major (around 1954), I remember going to the NYC Public Library to access their microfilms in order to find past NY Times articles.

I remember going into a booth at the Yonkers public library to listen to (and try to understand) opera records, referring to the librettos as I listened.

The reference room librarian used to cut articles out of the newspapers and put them in file folders for future reference by students.

As for Cliff Notes, I wish I had known about them sooner.

Were you able to get the SF list changed at all?

The Internet is allowing me to catch up on so many things I missed years ago. As you say, years ago there was no way to find information quickly. I depended a lot on our old Encyclopedia Britannica and The World Book Encyclopedia.

Arnie wrote: " I once had a student who not only copied the kid next to him's answers, but his NAME TOO!! Again I wish I were jesting."

Kids! I remember a classmate in H.S. copying my geometry homework just before class. When she was called up to the board to write out her homework proofs, she copied my stuff onto the board and got a good commendation from the teacher. However, she probably failed the geometry regents test at the end of the year. LOL Maybe not. She was smart enough to copy someone else's homework. :)

Oh, I missed that one by Arnie. That's too funny!

Reading articles via microfiche! I remember that. Horrible, but we felt really lucky to get one at our school library. Cut down on homework time tremendously. No longer had to go out to the public library.

Joy, consider yoursel lucky the teacher didn't call you up to board next!! That would have been awkward!!

One time I caught a girl looking at her notes during a test---I crumpled her paper and she said plaintively--"I wasn't cheating, I was just studying during the test!!"

Yes, I did see Mel Gibson's Hamlet and was pleasantly surprised at how good he was!!
I remember way back, Richard Chamberlain doing a creditable job in A Made-for-TV production.
I think the best I've seen was Kenneth Branagh's in his Hamlet which was the complete play---4 hours worth!!

Thanks for this great discussion!

And thank you too!!

Hi all, That was a funny and very interesting discussion. Enjoyed, it very much. I am now reading THE SHOOTERS by W.E.B. Griffin. It is 747 pages long. I am on page 500. It sure is a thriller to read. The plot is great and the characters are like your friends. Can't put down and nail biting.
My best to all, Donna
PS Joy, I am visiting my Daughter, Nikki in Clifton Park for 4 weeks. Am hoping to meet you. I am coming up around Dec.11.

Donna wrote: "Hi all, That was a funny and very interesting discussion. Enjoyed, it very much. I am now reading THE SHOOTERS by W.E.B. Griffin. It is 747 pages long. I am on page 500. It sure is a thriller to re..."

Donna, be sure to get in touch when you're in the area!

_The Shooters_ sounds like a great book!