On Paths Unknown discussion

This thread is for discussing Book of the Steppe up to: The Other Prince's Tale. Up to and including page 83.

Please be prepared for spoilers up to : The Other Prince's Tale. Feel free to discuss content up to this point, but not any farther on than this point in the book. This is just so that we can start discussing without having to worry about spoilers.

I'm sure you've all noticed by now, that these are nested tales, a bit like those Russian dolls, but more entertwined. It's not just a story within a story within a story, it's more like entertwined stories within a story within a story. Like different kinds of threads woven into a tapestry.

One of the stories we encounter here, deals with the
Warrior Women of Eurasia.



Apparently there is truth to the myth of the Amazons after all: http://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/25/sci...



Anybody interested can read more here:
http://www.silk-road.com/artl/sarmati...

and here: http://historum.com/blogs/killcarneyk...

I wondered what hematite was so i looked it up: Hematite is a mineral, colored black to steel or silver-gray, brown to reddish brown, or red. It is mined as the main ore of iron. Varieties include kidney ore, martite (pseudomorphs after magnetite), iron rose and specularite (specular hematite).

...and it's quite pretty:







I presume Valente meant the black variety (the hematite air in the cave).

Whom amongst you would accuse Valente of Purple prose ?

Personally, I have always flowery writing, like for instance in the stories in A House of Pomegranates by Oscar Wilde. And i find it quite fitting in our narrative under discussion. I find it makes the world she paints feel richer and more lush, makes it feel like a proper Arabian Nights fairy tale setting. Of course the content of the stories are more adult than the term "fairy-tale" would belie.

Also, the purpleness seems to have some poetic functionality like in the following passages:

Frogs sent emerald notes up into the air, and owls sang in low gleaming strands, resting in black branches, veiled in the violet breath of jacaranda flowers. Under their harmonics, her voice sighed back and forth. The girl drank from the wine flask, running her fingers over its engraved surface. The wind rustled her hair like petals on a lake. Even though they had rested, as she spoke the boy had again drifted into a shallow sleep, and the story’s words wove in and out of his mind like a needle drawing silken thread.

His head lay on the girl’s lap, and she stroked his soft black hair as she continued, at first timidly, then with a growing tenderness. The stars overhead burned like court candles. The moon was high, full as a blown sail, riding softly through the rolling blue clouds, cutting through their foamy sapphirine flesh with a glowing prow. Shadows fell in long minarets on the gardens, the courtyards, the lemon trees and olive, the acacias and the climbing vines, the bone white lilies and the sleeping Palace.

The girl’s voice was like river rushes rubbing together in a warm wind, winding through the cobbled paths.

It's like Valente is taking the purpleness and the poetry and shaping it into her own unique magic, just as she does with folklore.
Note the unusual mixture of visual imagery when she is describing sounds. All of her imagery here, though lush, is combined to create unique textures, and almost all of what she describes, links back to narrative as object, and seems to point back to this specific narrative as a tapestry or woven cloth, making these seemingly superflous passages a self-referential metatext.

Her voice voice sighing back and forth suggests a needle working on cloth to me. The "engraved surface" seems to symbolize cultural representations such as texts or graven images, and then the text even literally refers to" and the story’s words wove in and out of his mind like a needle drawing silken thread. "

Then again, the "warm wind, winding through the cobbled paths." seems to suggest winding through paths of entertwined storylines to me.

Very lyrical ... like gossamer-winged meadowlarks prancing across the keys of an antique piano ... like the gently-rolled stones of a brook clicking in rhythm with the west wind ... like the sound of a sunset breeze wafting along the tall grass ...

No, no "purple prose" here. :)

Actually, sad to say, I had never heard of purple prose, so thanks for the education. So far, it's slightly distracting but I think I'll warm to it. I have a strong feeling it's used for a reasonn

One thing which has struck me about the set-up of the story is that the garden itself could exist in just about any time or place. It's clearly not the modern "western" world that most people reading the story are likely to be living in, but that (and the notion that the girl is cursed by a spirit) aside it doesn't really give itself away as either real or impossible.

I like that. I like that you can provide your own spin on it to make it seem more authentic for you, and the next person can do the same whilst having a different objective result. There's a lot of fine detail, but the gross properties of the world surrounding the characters is largely missing, and yet it doesn't suffer.

I don't think Valente's prose is quite purple. It might be bordering on aubergine, but there's a bit of a contradiction in making an accusation, because colour is in the eye of the beholder, and yet purpleness implies intent---something which cannot be independently verified with absolute certainty. One person's purple prose is another's masterpiece (a fact of life I have more than once encountered in my life as a reader, from both ends), so is it? Who knows. Is it for me? Nah.

The creation myth is a curious one. It's probably cribbed off something from the real world (if not a straight retelling---any insight on this, Traveller?), and of course creation myths are intrinsically paradoxical (even the Big Bang seems a paradox to me), but this one is consciously so. The mare bites itself, chews on itself, then retreats into a corner of itself; she is everything, yet she can be outwardly observed, and this is central to the entire sub-story. I'm not sure I've ever seen its like before. Did it captivate anyone else, or is it just me?

One could see it coming a mile away, but I'm glad there's a budding romance between the boy and the girl. I guess I'm a sap for love stories. I love love stories. I love loving love stories. Indeed, I love love! :)

I've still not at the end of the designated section (not even close, actually), but I'm having a great time. I'm starting to think Valente will have to be a new favourite!

Oh yaye, we have people besides me in here! I love those passages, Allen, very beautiful! Yes, 'lyrical ' is a good description. Sometimes this book feels a bit like reading poetry. And I like it after having felt a bit frightened that it might turn out to be stilted, initially. But it does 'warm' as one goes along. :)

Puddin Pointy-Toes wrote: "One thing which has struck me about the set-up of the story is that the garden itself could exist in just about any time or place. It's clearly not the modern "western" world that most people read..."

Hmm, I've been trying to find stuff, but still looking. What I -did- find was more on the steppe women, and it is clear to me that these were indeed whom Valente is writing about:

Beginning in the 4th century BC, several of the nomadic tribes settled to the north of the Black Sea. [...]
The Sarmatians were nomadic, warring peoples who lived to the northeast of the Scythians. They used brass and wore mail. Sarmatians were fair haired in contrast to the dark haired Scythians. Scholars believe that they descended from the Timber Grace culture in the Volga River region and Andronovo culture located in the southern Ural steppes.

Sarmatians are said to be the offspring of Scythian males and Amazon females; both warrior groups. Herodotus wrote that the female offspring, have continued from that day to the present to observe their ancient [Amazon] customs, frequently hunting on horseback with their husbands; in war taking the field; and wearing the very same dress as the men . . . No girl shall wed till she has killed a man in battle.

The Sarmatians and Scythians were kindred tribes with the primary difference being the role of women in their cultures. Traditionally, Scythian women did not have much status in their society. Their duties were purely domestic. This contrasts with neighboring tribes of Sarmatians whose women, believed to be descendants of the part myth, part fact based Amazons, had gained a reputation as fierce warriors. Scythian women did not ride horses like their Sarmatian counterparts. Instead, they traveled in wagons with their young. There is no evidence of strife between these two groups during the 700 - 500s BC. In fact, Herodotus claims that the Sarmatians were allies of the Scythians in their resistance of Darius' attempts to expand the Persian Empire to the southern Russian steppes during the 600s BC.

The people who took them prisoner could in fact be almost anyone (but most possibly Persians?) - warring seems to have almost been a way of life back then.

Okay, you've put me to work here, Puddin. I haven't found that exact myth, but you can pretty much replace the horse with another animal to find some other similar creation myths.

According to wikipedia, In the second form of world parent myth, creation itself springs from dismembered parts of the body of the primeval being. Often in these stories the limbs, hair, blood, bones or organs of the primeval being are somehow severed or sacrificed to transform into sky, earth, animal or plant life, and other worldly features. These myths tend to emphasize creative forces as animistic in nature rather than sexual, and depict the sacred as the elemental and integral component of the natural world.

But i would also like to maybe mention Brahma, because that kind of Hindu mythology is what i thought of first when you mentioned the seeming contradictions with: The mare bites itself, chews on itself, then retreats into a corner of itself; she is everything, yet she can be outwardly observed,...

Well, according to Shri Madha Bhagawata Mahapurana, Brahmā was born through Vishnu's navel, Vishnu is the main source of whatsoever exists in the world; what is created is part of his own body.

According to the Purāṇas, Brahmā is self-born in the lotus flower. Another legend says that Brahmā was born in water, or from a seed that later became the golden egg, Hiranyagarbha. From this golden egg, Brahmā, the creator was born. The remaining materials of this golden egg expanded into the Brahmānḍa or Universe. Being born from a lotus, Brahmā is also called as Kanjaja (born from a lotus). There is a story for Sharsa brahma hence the concept of multiple universe as every Brahmā creates his Bhramand (universe) for one Brahmā year.

In any case, that's it for now, but i wouldn't be surprised if there really was exactly just such a creation myth. On the other hand, although Valente does tend to refer to existing things, i have come to notice that she then, just like China Miéville, makes them her own; she changes and subverts the original ideas. I suspect they are both postmodernists at heart in this respect.

I haven't been able to read much of the book yet, but, yes, Valente's prose is very rich and lush, almost like she is casting a spell. I'm reading it along side The Wide Sargasso Sea as well. In the Wide Sargasso Sea there is also descriptions of a beautiful garden inhabited by a "damaged" or "cursed" woman. The two novels are incredibly different, but I was interested in how both draw from the garden symbolism and how both women are cursed.

Sorry, I want to jump in but I am a bit tied up and jet lagged. I've read a ways in though not far enough for the first spoiler.

So far it has kinda grabbed me but not by the throat yet.

Karin wrote: "I haven't been able to read much of the book yet, but, yes, Valente's prose is very rich and lush, almost like she is casting a spell. I'm reading it along side The Wide Sargasso Sea as well. In th..."

Ooh, so glad you're joining on this, Karin! Indeed.

Ruth wrote: "Sorry, I want to jump in but I am a bit tied up and jet lagged. I've read a ways in though not far enough for the first spoiler.

So far it has kinda grabbed me but not by the throat yet."

Oh yes! Your trip! Understood. Hope you recover from the lag soon, Ruth. I forgot exactly where in the US your destination is, but Scandinavia/US we're talking at least 7 or 8 hours jet lag, are we? Can be a killer, that.

Well, I'm in no tearing rush if you people want us to take this slow for now.

I don't think Valente's prose is quite purple. It might be bordering on aubergine, but there's a bit of a contradiction in making an accusation, because colour is in the eye of the beholder, and yet purpleness implies intent---something which cannot be independently verified with absolute certainty. One person's purple prose is another's masterpiece (a fact of life I have more than once encountered in my life as a reader, from both ends), so is it? Who knows. Is it for me? Nah.

just wanted to say... great comment! agree 100%.

personally, I don't call anything "purple prose" unless the prose is actually risible in its ornateness. I never feel like laughing at Valente's prose. instead I am in awe at its beauty.

mark wrote: "personally, I don't call anything "purple prose" unless the prose is actually risible in its ornateness. I never feel like laughing at Valente's prose. instead I am in awe at its beauty. ..."

I feel relieved that most of you don't see purpleness because I feel that there is a richness and an intent to her prettier prose - she manages to make her imagery functional and even organic in an imaginative sense/respect.

Traveller wrote: "Karin wrote: "I haven't been able to read much of the book yet, but, yes, Valente's prose is very rich and lush, almost like she is casting a spell. I'm reading it along side The Wide Sargasso Sea ..."

It's nine hours difference, Sweden to Los Angeles. I'm recovering. Should be back on track soon.

Phew, that is pretty much as much as one can get jet-lagged! Good luck, Ruth!

Traveller wrote: "Oh yaye, we have people besides me in here! I love those passages, Allen, very beautiful! Yes, 'lyrical ' is a good description. Sometimes this book feels a bit like reading poetry. And I like i..."

Made those up on the fly, almost teasingly ... I'm not opposed to lush, in fact it really reminds me of the writing in Deathless, which was mesmerizing and this is, too. But I'm not sold yet. I think if I were to approach this in the middle of summer as just fun fairy tale escapism, it would be better for me.

Puddin Pointy-Toes wrote: "I don't think Valente's prose is quite purple. It might be bordering on aubergine, but there's a bit of a contradiction in making an accusation, because colour is in the eye of the beholder...

Yep. I don't particularly like labels (one reason I haven't gotten into the Mieville genre discussion). Not just because some books span so many labels/categories, but also for the simple reason that each one of our lives and beliefs make them different, and for me even the time of year or day I'm reading it :)

Allen wrote: "Yep. I don't particularly like labels (one reason I haven't gotten into the Mieville genre discussion). "

Hmm, though that was of course in response to Mieville himself making the bold statement that he would (like to?) write a novel in every genre.

Yeah, but his genres probably would not match mine :)

Well, I'm not really in favor of pigeonholing myself, but it is useful to class texts into categories so that we can just use the 'label' instead of having to utter long descriptions every time we talk about them, wouldn't you say?

For example: "Gothic" is so much easier to say than; "a novel that employs dark and picturesque scenery, startling and melodramatic narrative devices, and an overall atmosphere of exoticism, mystery, romanticism and dread." .
To me, anyway...

Traveller wrote: "Well, I'm not really in favor of pigeonholing myself,..."

Iam so glad to hear that, Traveller. I don't see you fitting in a pigeonhole very comfortably. ;)

Ruth wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Well, I'm not really in favor of pigeonholing myself,..."

Iam so glad to hear that, Traveller. I don't see you fitting in a pigeonholevere very comfortably. ;)"

Right, but genres are not conceptually solid enough to do any pigeonholing, right? ;)

Haha, yeah, I'm too big for one. But you know what i mean, i meant when talking about literature generally, not necessarily individual books. :)

I mean, we all have an idea what we would more or less find under Steampunk or Cyberpunk or Science Fiction or Westerns or Non-fiction or Fiction, or Poetry or History or Mythology or Romance or Southern Gothic - make the classifications as wide or as narrow as you please, even libraries do it to some extent or another, and i personally find that useful.

Traveller wrote: "Also, the purpleness seems to have some poetic functionality like in the following passages:

Frogs sent emerald notes up into the air, and owls sang in low gleaming strands, resting in black bran..."

That's a lovely, appreciative way of viewing this work. I am reading this, but I have had a hectic week and have not been on GR much. It reminds me very much of The Arabian Nights: Tales of 1001 Nights, Volume 1,The Arabian Nights: Tales of 1,001 Nights: Volume 2,The Arabian Nights: Tales of 1001 Nights, Volume 3. I adore the Arabian Nights story cycle, and I admire the way Valente so easily steps into those slippers, but writes her own fresh thing (if, okay, yes, a bit wine-purply ;)

Traveller wrote: "Whom amongst you would accuse Valente of Purple prose ?"

She certainly knows how to mangle a metaphor (or a simile—the first one to jump out at me, at the end of the Prelude, was: "He crept out… like a hawk on the hunt." Honestly, I think creeping hawks would have a hard time surviving if they weren't mostly carrion eaters.

Traveller wrote: "I wondered what hematite was…."

It used to be very common for jewelry in England. My mother has quite a bit of it.

Traveller wrote: "Of course the content of the stories are more adult than the term "fairy-tale" would belie."

Grimm's fairy tales are not for children...

Nobody has commented on the similarity between the words written across the Orphan's eyes and Knife's tattoos. There must be a connection...

For the creation myth, I immediately thought of the Mongols, as horses figure prominently in their culture and mythology, and was surprised to find that though they have more than one creation myth, none of them seem to involve a Mare.

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Whom amongst you would accuse Valente of Purple prose ?"

She certainly knows how to mangle a metaphor (or a simile—the first one to jump out at me, at the end of the Prelude, was..."

Now that I am a bit further in, I have to agree about the metaphors. She can write with beauty, clarity, and elegance. She can also write awful, syrupy prose. It seems to me, in sentences such as the one about the hawk, that she is linking words and ideas that sounds lyrical (to her ear, at least), but which are awkward, amateur, and dissonant metaphors.

Let's give her a chance, dear people, this is among her first work.....I've seen better bits later on.

Oh, I'm not criticizing. I think T.D. has hit the nail on the head: it sounds lyrical, you just have to not analyze it too much! Unfortunately, I tend to analyze everything too much...

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Oh, I'm not criticizing. I think T.D. has hit the nail on the head: it sounds lyrical, you just have to not analyze it too much! Unfortunately, I tend to analyze everything too much..."

...which is why you would make an excellent copy editor, i suspect... but you can be a bit intimidating once you put your critical glasses on. :O

Traveller wrote: "Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Oh, I'm not criticizing. I think T.D. has hit the nail on the head: it sounds lyrical, you just have to not analyze it too much! Unfortunately, I tend to anal..."

Yes, I tend to over-analyse too.

I am still enjoying her writing. I mean, I am already a fan, so she does not have to convince me. But I had forgotten that these are earlier works. I suppose some writers come out with their best work early on, but most do not. They tend to improve, over time.

For some reason, GR is refusing to send me notifications when this thread updates. I'm miffed.

I'm not even certain her mangled metaphors are unintentional. When I picked up on the creeping hawk simile, I just thought it was fun.

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "For some reason, GR is refusing to send me notifications when this thread updates. I'm miffed.

I'm not even certain her mangled metaphors are unintentional. When I picked up on the creeping hawk ..."

It's not updating me either. That is extremely annoying! Just caught these posts by chance! grr.

In any case, oh, i'm pretty sure she is making up her own metaphors and similes! That's exactly why i like it and what makes her unique for me. China M. also has his very own Chinaness and Jeff Vandermeer has his own mushsquiddity, and for me, Valente has her own valence as well, ha. (Yes, that last one was cheesy, I know it. ) In any case, the emotional, not the scientific kind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valence_...

Traveller wrote: "Jeff Vandermeer has his own mushsquiddity"

Oh, that's what that was!

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Jeff Vandermeer has his own mushsquiddity"

Oh, that's what that was!"

Well, since CM definitely has some squiddity too, I thought I'd need to distinguish Vandermeer's brand by adding his weird mushroom weirdness to the equation. Apparently there is even more mushroominess in the Ambergris sequels to City of Saints and Madmen

I really found the star story very confusing and it stalled me for a while - the 7 maidens, Diamond, Jade etc. Has anybody got any thoughts on that bit? I know the stars have a lot of mythology attached to them.

Here are some of the stories:

In Navajo myth, Ursa Major, the Great Bear, originated from the story of the Changing Bear Maiden. In the story, a girl accepts a bear as her husband. Her younger sister tells the father, who in turn kills the bear. The older sister changes into a bear to get revenge.

The younger sister and seven brothers tried to flee their sister. The bear turns back into a girl and chases after her siblings. She eventually killed six of the brothers.

The seven brothers flew up into the sky and became Ursa Major.

That reminded me of the 7 maidens flown up into the sky as stars. In the Wolf's tale, we are told:

And so it was that the Stars learned that we could die, the biggest thing we could do, [she got that one right!] and those who were left vanished from the world, into the crevices and secret places of the earth, terrified as rabbits.  

It was not long after that that the girl and her black-eyed baby looked into the sky through the gaps in the still-wet ceiling of her tent and saw new stars there—seven of them, clinging together like sisters.

Here is another story about seven starry sisters:

According to the ancient Greeks, the Pleiades were seven sisters. In Greek, the word "pleiades" means "doves." Their parents were Pleione and Atlas who was condemned by Zeus to support the Heavens on his shoulders. One day, the Pleiades were traveling with their mother and met the hunter Orion.

Orion fell in love with Pleione and her charming daughters. He spent a great deal of time chasing after them, trying to win their affection. After several years, Zeus intervened and transformed the women into doves to help them escape. They flew into the sky to become the cluster of stars that today has their name.

However, only six stars are visible in the sky without a telescope. The ancient Greeks explained the absence of a seventh star with several different stories. According to one story, one of the Pleiades, Merope deserted her sisters because she was ashamed of having a mortal husband, who also happened to be a criminal.

I wondered abnout the Manikarnika also: it's presented as something we should be familiar with to some degree, so I had a notion it might be a reference to Orion, which I had thought was composed of seven stars.

However, there is particular attention played to the bright and shining Diamond, whom I thought might be a stand-in for Polaris---and Ursa Minor indeed has seven stars also. There's also a mythological connection to (as many as) seven sisters---and even a garden!

It seems like seven is a popular number for constellations, though, eh?

Puddin Pointy-Toes wrote: "I wondered abnout the Manikarnika also: it's presented as something we should be familiar with to some degree, so I had a notion it might be a reference to Orion, which I had thought was composed o..."

Love these comments! And no, that is not meant sarcastically. I wonder if there's a reason for the 7 thing....

Traveller wrote: "I wonder if there's a reason for the 7 thing.... "

other than the general sacredness of 7 in so many cultures?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_(num...

I hope the link works... damn tablet...

Ruth wrote: "Traveller wrote: "I wonder if there's a reason for the 7 thing.... "

other than the general sacredness of 7 in so many cultures?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_(num... ..."

:O I scrolled riiiight up to the top of that page, and then I scrolled riiight down again, and... and... 7 is just HUGE! :O:O

Next question: are there any other numbers that hold a similar significance?

I would have thought 13 would have had more but Wiki says it's smaller.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/13_(n...

I'll keep looking...;)

Hmmm, GR vs tablet, message went missing. Anyway, 13 is not nearly as much as I would have thought, but 40 is a biggie.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_(n...

This is all quite strange. Isn't Numerology more or less a religion in some spots? I admit to knowing next to nothing about the subject.

I don't know about it being a religion in and of itself, but it certainly plays a big role within many if not most of them

Not sure just who is woo me...but I could not help myself Andi last night I was astonished to come to the last page. Go r a while I just sat there could not imagine anything I wanted to do next other than track down the next volume. anybody else finished reading?

Oops, this is my next priority.

my next priority is the review...kraken just needs a bit of editing (woo woo...
oh wow,,,I might have been muttering) (in the above context I meant with). I am lucky I have a Lauren Bueke's on hand

Traveller wrote: "I really found the star story very confusing and it stalled me for a while - the 7 maidens, Diamond, Jade etc. Has anybody got any thoughts on that b..."

I'm actually surprised to hear mention of the Bear and Orion. I had assumed it was the Pleiades: the Seven Sisters (yes, there are only six naked-eye visible, now—though how many of you can see even six?—but when they first named them they should have been able to see all seven—it's been dimming over the millenia).

Polaris isn't a very good candidate as a "bright and shining diamond". It's in the top-50, but it wouldn't have got anybody's attention if it didn't appear as the only fixed star in the sky.

Hmm, thanks for that, Derek. I'm not as much into astronomy as I would like to be, but as we know, Valente, just like CM, tends to base her fantasy on bits of reality, so I was curious about what her star story was based on.

And yes! A good reminder that how the stars look to us from respective points on earth, changes over the millenia.

Valente made tor.com's "Pop Quiz at the End of the Universe" today.

Thanks for that, Derek!