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Buddenbrooks
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Buddenbrooks - 3rd Qtly 2021
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Antonie Buddenbrook
Tony, as she is called, is urged by family members into not just one, but two marriages of convenience. Thus she becomes situated as the symbolic sacrificial lamb who must forego her own emotional contentment for the sake of preserving the alleged greatness of the Buddenbrook lineage.
Christian Buddenbrook
Brother of Thomas and perhaps nothing short of an actual psychopath; certainly he is neurotic and this leads to excessive displays of hypochondria. Moody and with a taste for British finery, ultimately he winds up in a mental institution and becomes a symbol of devastation of the Buddenbrook family in both physical and mental terms.
Johan Buddenbrook
The no-nonsense patriarch of the clan. Wills control of the grain business to Jean as well as the idea that success is only possible through multiple generations working in collaboration.
Thomas Buddenbrook
Successfully runs the family business, represents a change in direction with his interest in fashion consciousness, public affairs and high culture. He is also not above acting without ethics or morals, yet views his brother Christian with increasing distaste. The extraction of a rotten tooth will set in motion a series of events that eventually leads to his premature death.
Little Johann “Hanno” Buddenbrook
Following that premature death, Thomas’s son Hanno inherits control of the family business far too prematurely. Typhus takes the life of Hanno when he is just 15 years old and with his Uncle Christian a mental case, his death brings the Buddenbrook family line to a skidding, sudden halt.
Johann “Jean” Buddenbrook
Nicknamed The Consul, he is the offspring of the patriarch’s second marriage and displays a sort of appreciation for deeply held religious values that is viewed with a sort of dumbfounded suspicion by other members of the Buddenbrook clan.
Thank you for the Character list Kristel. I have only read Death in Venice and I had to read that twice to absorb it more fully. Hopefully, I will not have to read this one twice.
I have started listening to an Audible version and am delighted to hear a familiar voice. David Rintoul also narrated The Magic Mountain, which I chose as a COVID read last year. He reads Mann exceptionally well, I love his voice and I am anticipating a most enjoyable time with this book. I don’t want to read the character list, because I want it all to be a surprise. That is why I usually ignore the questions until I have finished a book. I didn’t know that Mann was from a successful business family. It makes sense, the protagonist in The Magic Mountain was from a prominent business family in Hamburg. I thought Buddenbrooks was set in Lübeck, however, a place I haven’t visited, although I have been to other Hanseatic cities such as Rostock, Gdańsk and Hamburg, so I can easily imagine what it was like. I have read Death in Venice several times.
Thanks for the character list Kristel, so many names get thrown at you in chapter 1 that I thought I'm never going to keep track of everyone! At least I can come back here for a guide when I inevitably get them muddled up. I've not read any of Mann's novels before, but I am looking forward to digging into this one.
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1. How is family business succession one of the main themes in Buddenbrooks by Thomas Mann?
The novel opens in 1835 with the Buddenbrooks celebrating their occupancy of the new house. It closes in 1877 with Hanno's death. The actual events from which Mann set out are of later date, since they move back in time from the experiences of the young and adolescent Thomas Mann in the 1890s. The centenary of the Mann family firm took place in 1890, not 1868 as in the novel, and the historical sources Mann used in fact take the action back into the 1820s. He therefore telescopes into forty-two years a rather longer period of family history, and is able to incorporate historical structure into the novel without an excess of historical narration.
By telescoping the action, Mann keeps events within the life of one character, Tony Buddenbrook, who acts as a kind of measuring-rod for the lapse of time and the shift of attitudes. French realists – Mann kept each generation in touch with characteristic historical figures and movements. Johann Buddenbrook represents the Napoleonic period: not accidentally does the dinner discussion in Part One recount the guests' experiences of the great man and his age. His son, the Consul, who disapproves strongly of Napoleon I on moral grounds (1,5), epitomises the quieter values of the post-Napoleonic period.
from; Hugh Ridley, 2009.https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/...
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I have made it approximately one third of the way through the book and am enjoying it quite a bit. All that fear I had about reading it has dissolved. 2. How do the Buddenbrooks fathers engage their daughters in the family businesses?
Tony clearly believes it is her duty to her father and her family to marry well and in their value system this means marrying money or at least someone who is in the same merchant class and can make money. The irony, of course, is even though she decides to do this, after her father manipulates the situation, it doesn't turn out well for her or her family.
Tony is also a part of her grandfather's and father's firm's societal public relations system. It is important that she interact with the appropriate society and act with upper class manners and show off their money. Of course, she is not allowed to actually work for the firm or in any way make decisions about the firm's business affairs.
3. What is the emblematic meaning of the old house as used in Buddenbrooks by Thomas Mann?
It is property and in some ways, the book is about "property" as that is the clearest representation of the capitalistic success of the family. The home also represents a safe haven for Tony when she returns after the failure of her first marriage.
4. Stages and themes of decline (any thoughts or quotes).
It is probably too early in the book for me to answer this one but Tony's failed marriage is definitely a "first" in the family and signals a descent. This could easily be overcome but we are being given hints of revolution in the air and bankruptcies in Hamburg and fear in Amsterdam....all of which does not bode well. Also, we are clearly shown that the third generation is not quite up to the physical energies of the 1st generation. Thomas is rather sickly and nervous, his brother Christian is not stable, their cousins are either not intellectually capable or are only intellectually capable of deceit. This also does not bode well. Who is going to take over the firm and rebuild it to its trading glory? None of the above.
I finished the whole thing on audio late last month (woo), so now seems like a good time to start answering the questions. I also, in general, liked this book better than I thought I would? ‘Decline of a Hamburg merchant family legacy’ does admittedly sound like it could be a bit of a massive doldrum of a book. But, I found myself pretty engaged with the family’s exploits and failures and the way the book explored the follies and impossible dreams of the mercantile class. 1. The family business is at the centre of the plots that make up the book. Ingratiating themselves to the local political class, the younger generation’s studies, the daughter’s marriage, are all fundamentally about perpetuating the family business and their social status afforded from its success. In this way, the family business contributes to the wider thematic points of how the (relatively) new money mercantile class’s obsession with material success and attaining status and legacy is a thing that consumes all other aspects of their life and being to the extent it becomes oppressing rather than liberating- as they fancy to be the case. The decline of the business also contributes to the idea of the inevitable fall decay of all things, and the impossibility of perfect sustaining legacy.
2. I like Gail’s answer above. Their social behaviour being reflective of the family (very similar to the way in US politics candidates families are still used to give a depiction of how ‘presidential’ they are). As well, the way they are expected to marry into good business connections for their father’s benefit. It portrays a picture of rigid social expectation, and a lack of options and autonomy. Sure. Tony does get divorced (twice), but her ill-fated first marriage greatly affects her prospects and social standing/options once she does.
3. The old home deteriorates as the younger generations move out into the new mansion Thomas has built (a great mistake as its upkeep is a great time and resource drain). It shows how the foundation of the older generation (their business/their status) is degraded by abandonment of the younger generation to greater newer things they cannot support. It rings very true of ideas like knowing when to quit, and your profiteering goals are never ‘too big to fail’. It also mirrors the decay of the family itself- it earlier generations and branches slowly being extinguished- until barely anyone is left there.
4. I like how the book introduces different, progressively more severe tragedies/issues in the family that mirror really the downfall of anything. Internal conflict (Thomas and Christian) loss and missteps (Tony’s marriage, Christian’s money) Decay (the old house, sickly children, Christian’s asylum admittance) extinction (the death of Johan as a teenager, with only aging and infirm female family members remaining).
I have finished the book. It is rare for me to finish the quarterly read early but I was captivated by this book. In regards 3. The houses all took on additional meaning as the book went along. The old house became both the foundation of the family with its amazing Christmas celebration and also demonstrated the decay of the family ambitions as it began to fall apart. Finally when sold to Tony’s “enemy” we see it as the perfect ending to the family prosperity. Thomas and Gerda’s house is, to use Mann’s metaphor, just a set of clothes for Thomas’ fragile ego.
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In regards 3. The houses all took on additional meaning as the book went along. Th..."
Congrats, the link is posted above for reviews.
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Facts:
This book was key in Thomas Mann winning the Nobel in Literature.
He published this while at 26, it is his first novel and is based on his own family. He used many names from his home area which caused some to cry foul.
Interesting fact
Thomas Mann took the surname Buddenbrook for his book from Theodor Fontane’s “Effi Briest”, where a very secondary character with this name is mentioned in chapter 28. The two novels have been published within a few years, Effi Briest in 1896 and Buddenbrooks in 1901. Mann wrote that he loved the book and defined it as “one of the fundamental books for an ideal library”. There are also some similarities between Effi, the protagonist, and Tony.
Have you read Effie Briest?
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There are many other family trees for the book on-line.
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The Hanseatic League was an influential medieval commercial and defensive confederation of merchant guilds and market towns in central and northern Europe.
Pip mentions that she has traveled to some Hanseatic settings? Have you traveled to Germany and have you visited any of these areas?
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1. What did you like best about this book?
2. What did you like least about this book?
3. What other books did this remind you of?
4. Which characters in the book did you like best?
5. Which characters did you like least?
6. If you were making a movie of this book, who would you cast?
7. Share a favorite quote from the book. Why did this quote stand out?
8. What other books by this author have you read? How did they compare to this book?
9. Would you read another book by this author? Why or why not?
10. What feelings did this book evoke for you?
11. What did you think of the book’s length? If it’s too long, what would you cut? If too short, what would you add?
12. What songs does this book make you think of? Create a book group playlist together!
13. If you got the chance to ask the author of this book one question, what would it be?
14. Which character in the book would you most like to meet?
15. Which places in the book would you most like to visit?
16. What do you think of the book’s title? How does it relate to the book’s contents? What other title might you choose?
17. What do you think of the book’s cover? How well does it convey what the book is about? If the book has been published with different covers, which one do you like best?
18. What do you think the author’s purpose was in writing this book? What ideas was he or she trying to get across?
19. How original and unique was this book?
20. If you could hear this same story from another person’s point of view, who would you choose?
21. What artist would you choose to illustrate this book? What kinds of illustrations would you include?
BOOK CLUB DISCUSSION QUESTIONS FOR FICTION
22. Did this book seem realistic?
23. How well do you think the author built the world in the book?
24. Did the characters seem believable to you? Did they remind you of anyone?
25. Did the book’s pace seem too fast/too slow/just right?
26. If you were to write fanfic about this book, what kind of story would you want to tell?
Alright, some select questions for the last hour of August (on my end): -If you were making a movie of this book, who would you cast?
Oh that’s a fun question, I’ll go with:
The 3 kids (as adults):
• Antonie: Michelle Williams. She does suffering wife/mother really well (See Brokeback Mountain and Fosse/Verdun).
• Christian: Andrew Scott. He does flamboyant hedonism quite well and seems not alright physically and emotionally in almost everything I’ve seen him in.
• Thomas: Michael Fassbender. He plays a lot of intense characters with a lot of loathing, and has also played some amoral industrialists (certainly if you count Steve Jobs lol).
Others:
• Johan: Patrick Stewart. He’s older and I just like him. Lots of gravitas.
• Hanno: Timothee Chalamet. He looks like a 15 year old still and is out there suffering in all the prestige movies.
• Jean: Tobias Menzies. Big fan, is great at being stern. Could see him playing the monkish one.
• Antoinette: Judy Dench. Why not.
• Erika: Saoirse Ronan. She’s also young and out there suffering in all the prestige movies.
-Share a favorite quote from the book. Why did this quote stand out?
I like this one: “Thomas Buddenbrook's existence was no different from that of an actor - an actor whose life has become one long production, which but for a few hours for relaxation, consumes him unceasingly.”
I really speaks to how Thomas’s struggle to both expand and maintain the family legacy and reputation required so much unending posturing on his end. In general, this can get applied to so many people today trying to maintain a family’s former class privilege, or noteworthy families who are more ‘a brand’ than people. It speaks to the restriction and insincerity of these lives.
-What other books by this author have you read? How did they compare to this book?
A few. Did Magic Mountain last year (enjoyed it), previously read Death in Venice (and another novella that was part of that edition). Found death in Venice complicated to judge because the themes and quality were great but the content is pretty objectionable without Mann realizing that. This one Is my favorite so far.
-What did you think of the book’s length? If it’s too long, what would you cut? If too short, what would you add?
I actually thought this one was just right.
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1. What did you like best about this book? I liked the story of the family. I always enjoy books that look at death or are about death, etc.
5. Which characters did you like least? At times I was pretty annoyed with Tony.
6. If you were making a movie of this book, who would you cast? I can't do this as I pay no attention to actors and seldom watch weeds.
7. Share a favorite quote from the book. Why did this quote stand out? When I do audios I am unable to really enjoy the quotes. It is a negative that I have for audios
8. What other books by this author have you read? How did they compare to this book?
I've read Magic Mountain and Death in Venice. I liked them both. This being a debut novel, written by Mann when he was in his twenties and won him the Nobel probably makes this one stand out.
9. Would you read another book by this author? Why or why not?
10. What feelings did this book evoke for you? It brought sadness to see the decline of the family, the deaths in the family, the passing of generations.
11. What did you think of the book’s length? If it’s too long, what would you cut? If too short, what would you add? It was a easy paced book and for a quarterly read it wasn't daunting at all. I appreciate that.
13. If you got the chance to ask the author of this book one question, what would it be?
If this was based on Thomas Mann's own family/town, how did his family respond to the book. Did he respect or dislike these aspects of his family as business people.
14. Which character in the book would you most like to meet?
15. Which places in the book would you most like to visit?
16. What do you think of the book’s title? How does it relate to the book’s contents? What other title might you choose?
17. What do you think of the book’s cover? How well does it convey what the book is about? If the book has been published with different covers, which one do you like best?
18. What do you think the author’s purpose was in writing this book? What ideas was he or she trying to get across? culture changes, societal status changes. I think too, as a parent, one should raise up a child in "the way he will go". Know your child's strengths and develop those, don't destroy them. (I am not sure that was his purpose).
19. How original and unique was this book? I am not sure it was original.
20. If you could hear this same story from another person’s point of view, who would you choose? I think we got the point of view of Tony and Christian through the dialogue so not sure I would need that. I suppose it might be interesting to view the family through the servants.
BOOK CLUB DISCUSSION QUESTIONS FOR FICTION
22. Did this book seem realistic? yes
23. How well do you think the author built the world in the book? very well. It was based on his home and actually got him in a bit of hot water over it.
24. Did the characters seem believable to you? Did they remind you of anyone? yes
25. Did the book’s pace seem too fast/too slow/just right? Just right
Alrighty: last round of questions for this one: • What did you like best about this book?
I liked how it worked as an intergenerational narrative, you really get a sense of the family decay following over multiple generations and essentially following patriarch Johan’s children across their lifetimes.
• What other books did this remind you of?
Definitely Forsyte Saga and Sound and the Fury: also intergenerational tales of once notable families in decline.
• Which characters in the book did you like best?
I think I liked Antonie the most, she was one of the family members who endured and learned doing right by herself was more important than maintaining societal propriety.
• If you got the chance to ask the author of this book one question, what would it be?
Maybe if there was a real family he based them on, and if that’s part of why he got in so much trouble in Hamburg after writing it.
• Which places in the book would you most like to visit?
Actually looked up Lubeck after reading, didn’t realize it was a Hanseatic town and a Unesco site. Looks like it has gorgeous architecture. I’d like to see it.
Love your casting Amanda! I also thought the book was just right in terms of length. I took a history of the Baltic countries course once and learned about Lubeck then, but even though I have traveled throughout Germany I have not seen It. I would now love to go.
Gail wrote: "Love your casting Amanda! I also thought the book was just right in terms of length. I took a history of the Baltic countries course once and learned about Lubeck then, but even though I have trave..."Thanks Gail :)
1. The story of the Buddenbrooks family saga is the main plot, and the decline of the family the most important theme.2. The daughters weren't supposed to be interested in the business itself, but their roles were to maintain the social prestige of the family, particularly by marrying into a family which would be an advantageous connection for the the family business. They were a net deficit for the family because a dowry had to be paid when they married.
3. The novel begins when the patriarch buys a grand house which had had to be sold by a family which had not prospered. This house had fallen into disrepair by the time it was sold after the death of the original patriarch's daughter-in-law. The reason the property had been neglected was in part due to the decision by the next head of the family to build an ostentatious and expensive replacement for himself, for reasons of prestige rather than good sense. So the house was a tangible reflection of the rise and fall of the family fortunes.
4. I listened to an Audible version so I don't have any quotes noted, but I loved the way that Mann used repetition to emphasise, particularly when describing people. The decline was gradual. First Tony's disastrous marriages, made with the motive of increasing family prestige, but achieving the opposite; Christian's gradually revealing his unsuitability as a businessman; Thomas' difficulty in having children and his only son being an unsuitable character to carry on the business; and finally Thomas' inability to adapt to a changing business environment.
I spent some time in the intriguing city of Hamburg while living in Germany a few years ago. While looking to see where Trevimunde was in relation to Lubeck, I was surprised at how much further north Lubeck is compared to Hamburg. Hamburg is a huge port, but it is 80 kilometres inland. I spent time wandering around the docks, with their huge warehouses, now repurposed.
Supplementary questions:
1. I just loved the narration by David Rintoul, who also read The Magic Mountain, which I listened to last year. I am not sure if I would have found Mann so approachable without his help.
3. It reminds me of Dickens and Thackeray.
4. The character that I enjoyed hearing about was Christian. Mann did a great job of describing someone so feckless and yet engaging.
6. I love Amanda's casting!
8. I found Death of Venice rather obtuse and difficult to understand, although I have read it at least twice. But I understand much better now I realise that Mann was homosexual and wrote candidly about being attracted to his own son. The Magic Mountain was similar in that it described peoples' interactions in exquisite detail.
15. Trevimunde, I had never heard of it but it looks charming.
23. Mann did a superb job of describing the world of the merchant in nineteenth century Germany. The descriptions of Christmas celebrations, the summer holidays at the beach and the machinations of the Senate evoked the period in detail.
Hi, everyone!I'm late and have just recently begun. I've read the first 100 pages (which in the copy I read means that Tony hasn't still decided her mind whether or not to marry her father's business companion whom she finds utterly ridiculous and tiresome.)
I finished listening to the audio version of this book, David Rintoul was an excellent narrator and I’m not sure I’d have enjoyed the book half as much without him.1. My favourite part of this book is when Thomas and Christian have a massive argument in the garden after Christian has gone to work for the firm but soon stops bothering to put in much of any effort. Their later arguments in the book get quite nasty, but this first one was very humorous. I also really enjoyed a day in the life of little Hanno.
2. My least favourite part is the ending, (view spoiler)
3. I loved little Hanno and for the most part I enjoyed Toni’s antics, even though she never really grows up, she is entertaining to read and only got on my nerves a few times.
4. Least favourites were the Ladies Buddenbrook from Breite Strasse, never a nice word to say about anyone.
5. I love Amanda’s movie cast choices :)
6. Favourite quote:
“His games have a deeper meaning and fascination that adults can no longer fathom and require nothing more than three pebbles, or a piece of wood with a dandelion helmet, perhaps; but above all they require only the pure, strong, passionate, chaste, still-untroubled fantasy of those happy years when life still hesitates to touch us, when neither duty nor guilt dares lay a hand upon us, when we are allowed to see, hear, laugh, wonder, and dream without the world's demanding anything in return, when the impatience of those whom we want so much to love has not yet begun to torment us for evidence, some early token, that we will diligently fulfill our duties. Ah, it will not be long, and all that will rain down upon us in overwhelming, raw power, will assault us, stretch us, cramp us, drill us, corrupt us.”
Poor Hanno you have to wonder what his life could have been if his father had not put so much pressure on him to be something he was not. (view spoiler)
11. I think this book was quite long, but honestly, I’m not sure what I would cut out. If anything I felt cheated having to spend so much time with Thomas daily dramas, I would have preferred more time with Hanno.
I finished this a couple of months ago, so it is no longer clear in my recent memory. My life and job have been too hectic, as of late, to respond any earlier. My responses will be lame, as a result. Which isn't probably that much different than normal ;)1. What are your feelings as you start this novel? Are you excited or somewhat intimidated? Have you read other Mann novels and if so which ones? Feelings = "yay, I can remove another long book from the list!" So, definitely more excited than intimidated. I have read several other works my Mann, including The Magic Mountain, Doctor Faustus, Death in Venice and Other Tales, and Bashan and I.
2. How do the Buddenbrooks fathers engage their daughters in the family businesses?
Women did not enjoy the same status as men in regards to the family business. Instead, their lives were manipulated for the sake of the business, by being married off to advantageous families, and by maintaining appearances of status.
3. What is the emblematic meaning of the old house as used in Buddenbrooks by Thomas Mann?
The house represented their former status and success. It also represented a monument to their failure. The house in its former state represented the height of the families success. The current decrepit state represented the families decline.
4. Stages and themes of decline (any thoughts or quotes).
There wasn't really a major event to cause a sudden decline, rather the downward spiral happened insidiously due to a number of smaller events over a long span of years.
I have read Effi Briest. I have been to Lubeck, Hamburg, Rostock, and some other Hanseatic league cities.
What did you like best about this book?
I love family sagas.
Would you read another book by this author? Why or why not? Absolutely. I still have to read "Joseph and HIs Brothers".
What feelings did this book evoke for you? My mother's family had a similar decline.
What other books did this remind you of? The Forsyte Saga and Celestial Harmonies.
Kristel wrote: "Anyone wishing to look at a family tree for the Buddenbrooks. https://webfuge.tripod.com/id17.htmThere are many other family trees for the book on-line."
Thank you, I appreciate this =)
Since I missed the start of this group reading I'm way behind you all but I hope I may answer the questions later.
I have just finished reading this and really enjoyed it. I think I enjoyed it more as I read it alongside The Magician by Colm Toibin which is a fictional account of the life of Thomas Mann but it is so detailed and complete it really is more like a biography.
I loved the way Mann identifies himself as poor doomed Hanno and that those who knew him at the time of publication also saw him in that character.
It was interesting to see how life reflected art as Mann grew up and ended up responsible for his siblings and their children to a certain extent.
Having read The Magician I am now keen to read everything Mann has written that is translated into English especially as now I know the background to the writing.
I loved the way Mann identifies himself as poor doomed Hanno and that those who knew him at the time of publication also saw him in that character.
It was interesting to see how life reflected art as Mann grew up and ended up responsible for his siblings and their children to a certain extent.
Having read The Magician I am now keen to read everything Mann has written that is translated into English especially as now I know the background to the writing.
For a 25 year old writer who was not encouraged by his family to write this is a startling achievement it gained Thomas notoriety and several people who recognised themselves in his writing were not best pleased.
I enjoyed this as a family saga watching how the family changed and declined over the years following simple bad decisions and trusting the wrong people.
I enjoyed this as a family saga watching how the family changed and declined over the years following simple bad decisions and trusting the wrong people.
I must admit I came to a halt .... I will continue though ... soon, but somehow - even though I enjoy it enough while reading - I never seem to longing back to the book whenever I've put it down.
Thomas Mann's first great novel, written at the age of 25, is an epic study of decadence among the merchant families of Hamburg at the end of the nineteenth century. The novel is based on Mann's own experience as the son of a German merchant prince, but it goes far beyond his own experience in its sweep and comprehensiveness.
1. What are your feelings as you start this novel? Are you excited or somewhat intimidated? Have you read other Mann novels and if so which ones?