Jane Austen discussion

I'm almost finished with this book for the first time and I have to say I'm having a hard time liking any of the characters.

I just read where Willoughby explains to Elinor his behavior and I'm thinking Elinor was stupid to forgive him. He leads on Marianne only to marry for money because he's too selfish to live off less money.

I don't get Col. Brandon. Him and Marianne have barely even talked yet he pines for her? Then Elinor, I assume I'm supposed to like her but I don't know enough about her. We don't really get to see too deep into her.

Did anyone else have trouble with this book?

I think it's one of the weaker novels. Although I thought Emma Thompson did a brilliant job of her adaptation, where she managed to make Edward Ferrars into a likeable character, whereas I can't help feeling he's a cipher in the book.

When Elinor forgives Willoughby, it's more a sign of her greatness of character than of his offering an adequate explanation. Forgiveness is a virtue and was probably more harped upon at the time than now :).

Elinor basically forms the contrast to Marianne--she's the ideal that Marianne eventually learns to become, controlling her feelings, sparing her friends and family, and not fretting herself almost to death for lurve. To that extent, therefore, she's not really a person, more a symbol.

I finished S&S last night and I feel the same way, Amanda. I didn't find the characters as endearing as those in other Austen novels. It took me quite a while to really get into this book, since I didn't find the story to be very relatable. I loved Pride and Prejudice and Northanger Abbey, however, and I have high hopes for Emma, which I think I'll read soon.

Squirrel, you bring up a good point, too, regarding the personalities of Marianne and Elinor. I thought it was interesting to see the way they changed toward the end of the story. Elinor was able to finally open up a little bit, while Marianne learned the importance of keeping her emotions in check.

I adore Sense and Sensibility. The book that I read had a wonderful forward, which also helped me to understand much of the language and tradition that encompassed the novel.

I found that every character had an interesting side to them. I loved how M and E both grew and changed in ways that made them more wise. I really did not like Willoughby in the novel. He was much more complicated, and you saw sides of him that were just not all that likeable. I liked him more in the movie, and felt a bit sorry for him, even if he was a letch.

I have to say that S&S is my second least favorite of the Jane Austen's books (the least favorite 'honor' belongs to Mansfield Park.)

When I was reading it, I hated Marianne with a passion - that's why I'm glad of the Emma Thompson's adaptation because it made me understand her better!

Although I agree with Elinor's idea of controlling yourself and not being a burden to others, I found her to much of a martyr for my taste. She knew what's her name was just trying to hurt her and she just kept taking it in the chin.

I also didn't like Edward. I thought very bad of him to encourage Elinor when he had other commitments. I guess he couldn't help but falling in love but he should have know better than to realize that Elinor would interpret his attentions the way she did. And she was right!

Then, I never felt as if Marianne really loved the Colonel but that she married him because she lost hope of loving again. I didn't like this idea that she learned to love him with time because that wasn't the kind of person she was. She loved passionately and deeply and I don't think the experience she had with Willoughby should have changed her character. Make her mature, yes, but not fearful of loving with all her heart again, which is what I think happened when she settled with the Colonel.

The character I had the hardest time with in S&S is Mrs. Dashwood.

Mrs. Dashwood over indulged Marianne, encouraged her when it was obvious that she was going too far and could use some direction and at the end, behaved as though she prefered Colonel Brandon the whole time!!!

Elinor was left to manage the household accounts, and serve as the head of household, when she was going through just as much (if not more because of Marianne's nonsense).

Whilloghby would not have gotten as far with Marianne if Mrs. Dashwood would have taken care to instruct her daughter to correct her behavior.

I think the minor characters steal the scenes in this book.

Mrs. Jennings and Sir John Middleton are a hoot.

Fanny Dashwood is so self serving; it is too funny when her plans for her brothers unravel at the end.

Mr. Palmer and Mrs. Palmer are perhaps as miss-matched as Mr. and Mrs. Bennet from P&P, and are rude to each other not only at home, but when in the presence of others.

I'm about halfway through the novel now. I am quite enjoying it, in all honesty. This is my first Austen novel. (I know, I know. I'm so embarassed to not have read any before.)

It is the real foibles of the characters that makes this book one of my favorite. Each character seems so real. It is a very honest story. I love it.

Don't worry, Audrey. I read Jane Austen for the first time a few years ago - got the P&P audiobook for free for trying Audible - and I got hooked. Although I grew up in the DR - my native language is Spanish - so I guess that's why I didn't read it at school.

For Amanda
I think Austen created Col. Brandon to be the more sensible choice for a marriage partner in the "times' they lived in. Which should Marianne choose? Excitement and a very uncertain future or a relationship based on security and sensibility?

Diva - do you really think Marianne loved Willoughby or was just infatuated? I think Marianne is in the majority of girls her age then and now. Young girls usually go for the bad guys, the mysterious guys which often represent romance for them. Then after the romance wears off, the reality show is turned off and real life begins the guy moves on or she matures and he doesn't and they either move on - hopefully without a love child that she will take care of or an addition to the divorce rate. You can bet "her character" or rather her values of men and romance will have changed and they will pick the man that will stand by them alias the Colonel. I think she can love with her whole heart again.

I firmly believe that Marianned loved Willoughby with all her heart. You have to remember that she didn't met the rake Willoughby but a charming guy with which she had a lot in common. They loved the same poetry, dancing, even wild flowers. He never behaved as the mysterious bad guy with her. She believed him to be an honorable man and she didn't have a clue about his 'extra curricular' activities with other women. And the romance didn't 'wore off' in her case, she was terribly dissapointed when he left her for another. I cannot believe that she would have stopped loving him if the relationship would have ended in marriage. It would have been tormentous, passionate and probably not happy but I don't think the feelings would have 'wore off.'

I thought this dissapointment made her mature and that she probably learned to be a bit more circumspect with her feelings but I'm not so sure it would have changed the person she was in her heart. I felt she accepted the Colonel because he had been her haven and she knew him to be a good man that really loved her. If she would have waited a while (not months but at least a year) before marrying Brandon, I would have felt different but as it was, I felt she was on the rebound.

I think Marianne fell in love with the Colonel. Her romantic side saw how throughout everything, he stayed true to her without imposing on her.

I don't think the Colonel wanted to wait too long - he had been waiting so long as it was.

Good points about Marianne's perception Diva. And I would have to agree about the quickness of her marriage. I guess what I think differently about is romance. To me it is a kindler that ignites affection. Beauty, charm and youth are some of the most popular igniters. I think in a good marriage, romance continues, develops into differnt aspects of the relationship. If the match does not continue to be fed in a good way, the early romantic "feelings" fade and if not replaced, die. I do, however, think love can continue without romance.

I think part of the point of the book is to see Marianne and Elinor blur the boundaries between sense and sensibility. Marianne becomes more sensible and we see Elinor with more feeling throughout the book.

That being said, as part of her character development, I believe that Marianne does love the Colonel. She just goes about falling in love in a ... more sensible manner. (Can you do that? lol) The love took time and grew. She didn't rush into things.

Plus, Austen obviously was rooting for them. Heehee Happy endings. <3

Well, maybe I'm biased because something similar happened to me when I was 20. I felt in love with this guy (although I've had relationships before, I felt that was the first time I really felt in love) and we dated for a while. We used to talk a few times a day and see each other a few times a week. Then, one day he stopped calling. No explanation, nothing. He wouldn't take my calls, either. As you can imagine, it took me almost a month to accept that the guy had dumped me and I was crushed. And to this day, I cannot remember that time without tears coming to my eyes (it was so painful.)

I didn't date anybody for a year. I just could not think of myself with anybody else - and although I've never been a serial dater, I like going out and meeting guys so this was a huge thing for me. After time had passed, I started dating slowly but surely. Years later I met a wonderful man, we fell in love, got married and we're very happy!

I'm sure that I would have been unhappy had that relationship continued (besides the coward factor, the guy had some other issues) but I cannot imagine falling in love and getting married a few months after that happened, even if I had met my husband. I needed time to heal.

Sorry to bore you with this but if you want to hear about poetic justice...a few years later, I met this guy again a few times (as friends) and he confided in me that one of his cousins (whom he loved like a brother) stopped talking to him because his (the cousin's) girlfriend gave him an ultimatum: girlfriend or cousin and the cousin chose the girlfriend. I felt sorry at the time because the guy was hurting badly but couldn't help but think that what goes around, comes around.

Hmmm. I guess I think that if Mrs. Jennings had not "helped" the Colonel along in the first place, Marianne would have not been so put off by him in the beginning. They already had music in common, and little by little, she was growing fonder of him, but then of course Mrs. Jennings got involved and Willoughby burst onto the scene.

I still believe that Marianne, after being hurt by Willoughby, embarassed by her own behavior, and then becoming friendly with the Colonel again, fell in love with Colonel Brandon.

Not fond of Mansfield Park? That's actually my favorite Austen? Why don't you like it? (Or is that a topic for a different thread?)

If you've seen the movie, you've seen the reason that Marianne fell for the colonel: ALAN RICKMAN! (Sorry... obsessed...) Seriously, when I saw the movie I couldn't understand why she didn't go for him from the get-go. He was obviously more intelligent. But, as a HS teacher I know that young girls don't think so much about brains as about excitement. It took me time to learn that lesson.

Not boring at all, Diva. Really it's quite a story. You should write the whole story, if not for publishing at least put it in with your life history for future grandaughters to read.

Have you seen S&S the movie? I loved it!

I like S&S, but it did take a while to get into the story. I actually liked Col. Brandon, he knew what he wanted and saw the BIG picture. Marianne was still a bit young. I also realised how young both she and Elinor really was, that a lot of the drama occurring was because of their ages and their quick lack of fortune and position quickly dwindling...how if they did not act fast they would be below poverty of their own servants...yet not able to work and support themselves. I can say though that I did not like Mrs. Dashwood (their mother) as I thought she was a bit silly ditz who could not run a household herself. I perceived her as very attractive, but not someone who was a good help-mate. I thought that the men were very believable, I know plenty guys who can easily be classified into those characters.

Someone earlier said it best the minor characters were superb! I even agree that the Palmers were probably not that much a bad "match". I will definitely be re-reading this more than once! Just to relive the emotions and final joy if nothing else,

I have not read S&S the book, but after seeing the movie, i want to. We have the movie, all i need is the book.

I agree with you Amanda! I love Jane Austen's works, and the relationship between the sisters, but WIlloughby and Cornel Brandon troubled me and did not meet up to my expectations. I found Brandon and Marianne to be kind of forced, after the illness and Willoughby's departure. They are 19 years apart!!

I also loved how M and E grew and changed, Rebecca! I found that opposites attract, and they kind of are complete opposites! they need each other for the balance and thats why they are a perfect pair together as friends, and sisters!

i agree with you LeOta!

me 2! it really explained the book, Jessica and casted the right actresses. Emma Thompson won an oscar for that movie!
also, the guy who plays snape plays brandon!!!

you mean Alan Rickman. Yeah the movie was great! It's one of my top three favorite movies.

Everyone had been calling this Emma Thompson's Sense and Sensibility. What happened to Ang Lee?

I think you're all right, the book didn't do enough to convince us of Marianne's change of heart from Willoughby to Brandon. I think Brandon is the end-all-be-all of sexy older sexy man - reliable, thoughtful, rich (LOL). But Marianne seemed so young...and that kind of appreciation takes years to develope, she seemed to take him as a kind of consolation prize...AND he is so the rebound guy, AND he's playing out some sort of creepy role-playing thing with Marianne as his long lost love. I wonder if he makes her "wear the bonnet"

I have not seen the movie, but in the book at least, I like Willoughby quite a bit and feel very sorry for him at the end.

Clara,
if you read back in the posts to some things written last year, I think that others can understand what you are saying. Willoughby is actually quite appealing and likeable, unfortunately, he is a player. In that day and time, such behavior was not tolerated and a young girl was considered "ruined" through mere association with such a fellow. Austin does make him a sad character in that it does seem he actually may be in love with Marianne and thus broken hearted so we do feel sorry for him. Given Marianne's tender personality, she is really better served with a stable person such as Col. Brandon. Both of the movie versions mentioned are fun to watch. The Willoughby in the Emma Thompson version is really a heartbreaker---very cute!

Michaela,
while I agree that the book doesn't tell us much about Marianne's change of heart, I believe Austin meant to show that deep within Marianne was more sensible than she often appeared. To me, I felt it was clear that Marianne realized that the Col. was a better catch because he had the capacity to offer more than the shallow romance that Willoughby gave her. She discovered that love does not have to be a whirlwind adventure and can be found in the steadfastness of a person's attention.

I liked the Emma Thompson movie. I am yet to read the book. The casting was perfect, I did believe the costumes were a bit too simple. Maybe I'm misjudging the fashion of the day. Kate Winslet's Marianne was touching, I felt really sad when she fell sick after she finds out about Willoughby's 'philandering' ways. The actor who played Willoughby was cute. He seemed to be a sleeker Wickham (he of the elopement with Bennett girl fame). I just noticed everyone was much older than Kate and Willoughby, hmmm...perchance or is that how the story goes? I can't wait to read the book.

That was Greg Wise playing Willoughy. He was good in that role. He plays those swine characters -- just saw him in Feast of July. I bet he is totally opposite in real life -- he is married to Emma Thompson!

<<<>>>

Oh! it sure's a small world on Broadway!!

(giggle) couldn't think of anything else!

I just finished this book. I loved it, but cannot compare it to any other Austen books because I haven't read them yet. I will say what I thought of the character's and general story. I kept in mind that this was Austen's first published novel. This kept me from being overly judgmental. I loved Elinor. I felt for her throughout the book as she found out everything about Edward and dealt with Marianne's childish nature. I also loved Colonel Brandon, almost as much as I love Elinor. His character kept true throughout the book. It was a little more difficult for me to like Edward. He was sweet, but it just bothered me that he would choose to honor an engagement he no longer wished to be in over marrying the woman he truly loved. It only worked out in the end by a stroke of luck. I can't stand Marianne. She's selfish and childish. The only thing she cares about the entire book is herself, and repeatedly insults Elinor, saying she doesn't have a heart simply because she doesn't wear it on her sleeve. She lets her emotions determine everything in her life. Even after she apologizes to Elinor in the end, I can't completely forgive her for being such a brat. Though the Dashwood sisters forgave Willoughby, I didn't. He had no right to feel sorry for himself for something he did to himself. Naturally, I dislike the characters I was meant to dislike, such as Lucy, Mrs. Ferrars, Robert Ferrars, Mr. and Mrs. John Dashwood. The rest of the characters I love for their own defect. Austen had a talent for writing characters who have flaws which make them endearing. I loved the story. I can tell I'm going to like Jane Austen.

In a way, both Colonel Brandon and Marianne form judgments in the same manner - the Colonel falls in love with Marianne because she reminds him of his first, idealized love. Marianne has an idealized notion of a hero and Willoughby steps in a becomes her hero incarnate.
As for Edward, while he did fall in love with Elinor, I don't think he encouraged her - their initial interaction takes place under the scrutiny of relations who would not approve of the match, and afterward, when he comes to them at Barton, it is after a visit to the Pratt/Steele family (hence the depressed spirits). Elinor so soon learns of the engagement between Edward and Lucy, and Edward leaves the picture until a later encounter in London, so it's hard to contend that he encourages her in the way Willoughby encourages Marianne.
As for the Edward/Lucy engagement - in that day, there were serious, potentially legal consequences for a gentleman breaking an engagement - a lady could break an engagement, but not a gentleman. One reason that Willoughby is such a scoundrel is that he deliberately encourages Marianne as a suitor, raising expectations he has no intention of fulfilling. We addressed this in our contribution to Historical Tapestry, "Why We Love Jane Austen". Here's the link if anyone cares to read it:
http://historicaltapestry.blogspot.co...

Zandy wrote: "I agree with you Amanda! I love Jane Austen's works, and the relationship between the sisters, but WIlloughby and Cornel Brandon troubled me and did not meet up to my expectations. I found Brandon ..."

I am on a similar page with you, I found the marriage to be forced as well, and I nearly hoped that Miss Gray, well that's not her name anymore, but anyway, I nearly hoped that she would die so that Willoughby could return, but as I think about it I think that it is a good thing that Willoughby was not with Marianne. I hated how he only "pretended" to like her for amusement! I was terribly unhappy about this knowledge. So, I am in agreement with you.

J. wrote: " In a way, both Colonel Brandon and Marianne form judgments in the same manner - the Colonel falls in love with Marianne because she reminds him of his first, idealized love. Marianne has an ideal..."

Well, it is only Edward's character that does not "allow" him to encourage her. It is not in his personality or experience to feel the need to give encouragement. Lucy just loved him, he was young and hardly had anything to do, but with Elinor, he was older and things had changed, he was also still engaged at the time of their meeting. I completely agree about Willoughby, though.

About Lucy Steele -- I have never really understood how Mrs. Ferrars could accept Lucy & Robert's engagement after having disinherited Edward for being engaged to Lucy?

Mayakda wrote: "About Lucy Steele -- I have never really understood how Mrs. Ferrars could accept Lucy & Robert's engagement after having disinherited Edward for being engaged to Lucy?"

Mrs Ferrars is a victim of her own fit of pique: after keeping Edward hanging on for years, waiting for his inheritance, she turned the money over to Robert in an irrevocable financial arrangement. She then had her vanity worked on by Lucy, who's clearly very gifted at manipulation and flattery of the vain and shallow (which includes Robert and his mother). *Possibly* if Lucy had had access to Mrs Ferrars while engaged to Edward she might have talked her around - she certainly would have had a darned good try!

Accepting Lucy lets Mrs Ferrars hide from the fact that she made such an error of judgement in giving Robert his financial independence. I suspect that also contributes to her ongoing dislike of Elinor - she knows Elinor is superior to Lucy, and people like Mrs Ferrars are inclined to resent those they have wronged.

Shayne wrote: "Mrs Ferrars is a victim of her own fit of pique: after keeping Edward hanging on for years, waiting for his inheritance, she turned the money over to Robert in an irrevocable financial arrangement. She then had her vanity worked on by Lucy, who's clearly very gifted at manipulation and flattery of the vain and shallow (which includes Robert and his mother). "
"

That explains it. Thanks Shayne.
Lucy is very good at toadying, isn't she? I get annoyed that she gets everything she wants in the end, but I suppose Austen had to give her a good end or readers might feel Elinor had robbed her somehow.

Well, she got a good end, but not quite. Elinor got Edward who was a "superior" person and Lucy got Robert and Fanny and Mrs. Ferrars. I'll take a poor husband over having to live with odious in-laws any day. :)

Jeannette wrote: "Well, she got a good end, but not quite. Elinor got Edward who was a "superior" person and Lucy got Robert and Fanny and Mrs. Ferrars. I'll take a poor husband over having to live with odious in-..."

Well-said, Jeannette! Lucy got the things that mattered to her in life: money and social status. She probably quite enjoyed the petty intrigues with Fanny. Elinor got a husband she loved, and who loved her; she was near her family, and had enough financial security for her modest tastes. And Edward had a lucky escape! His mother inadvertently did him a favour by settling all that money on Robert.

Definitely! :)

I just reread the book for the first time in a while, and I'm still not sure how to feel about Willoughby's appearance to Elinor while Marianne is ill. I don't completely understand why she or anyone should feel sympathy for him based on his explanation. I suppose I could understand pitying him as a sad, pathetic human being, but it would be a disgust kind of pity, not an "I excuse/forgive him" feeling. Would love to hear people's thoughts.

Rebecca wrote: "I adore Sense and Sensibility. The book that I read had a wonderful forward, which also helped me to understand much of the language and tradition that encompassed the novel.

I found that every c..."

My copy, the Penguin Hardcover Classics edition, included a great piece in the appendix (better than the introduction they chose) by Tony Tanner. I loved the book already, but if you're finding yourself on the fence or would like more context for how to view it, it's a great piece with which to start.

Although I love S&S, I have always loved it a little less than other books by Jane Austen - and it is interesting to see some of the other readers articulate why! So I thank you.

I think one of the problems is that it is one of Jane's earlier works, and so she had not quite mastered the development of consistent, 3 dimensional characters! Compare the characters to those in Emma.

On the other hand S&S is a reaction to the idea that was so common then, that you should completely follow your heart (see Goethe's The Sorrows of Young Werther). So the overindulgence of Marianne and others in their emotions was a movement that JA was using as a backdrop, and may explain some of the irrationality of some of the characters.

Still, Jane does some development in S&S that doesn't happen in P&P, for example. The Miss Dashwoods rather look down on Mrs. Jennings, who is vulgar and reminiscent of Mrs. Bennet - but they eventually see that Mrs. Jennings is a kind and generous soul.

Parinita wrote: "I'll never understand what the big deal was about Marianne?! She is the JA heroine I like least.
She is horrible to everyone!! I also can't understand what Col. Brandon ever saw in her?! and when ..."

Marianne is very pretty and plays the pianoforte very well. So Brandon, who is rather shallow, falls for her. On the other hand, those were important qualities back then.

I agree that she is almost worthy of villainess in her selfishness. But she is also very young, and she does learn and grow.

Parinita wrote: "@Victoria
Lol.... I suppose Btandon was shallow!
I suppose she does learn in the end but I think the best thing about the whole situation was that she was surrounded by good people who were willing..."

I agree actually. Sense and Sensibility is not one of my favourites.... It is hard to say why exactly but some people have said why I think the reason probably is.

I do not think Brandon that shallow... but Marianne was annoying and selfish! She does grow however! I think my opinion of Brandon changed a little when I read Amanda Grange's 'Colonel Brandon's diary' as I liked reading more behind this man who we don't learn that much about (I know it is a work of fiction based on the story but it did get me to think more about his character and story in the original tale)

But, getting to my actual reply to your comment!, my opinion of both the Sense and Sensibility guys changed when I saw the 2008 series.

I was not that keen on the film and I do not see why some people think it a complete master piece - I did not like Grant as Ferrars at all (although I did like Rickman playing a hero for a change)

But I loved both the portrayals in the 2008 series; Ferrars in particular as I never liked him as a hero really, but Dan Stevens' portrayal threw him into a more favourable light in my eyes.