Victorians! discussion
This topic is about
The Egoist
Archived Group Reads 2021
>
The Egoist: Week 3: Chapters 15-21
date
newest »
newest »
Mod
1. What are the reasons for Willoughby’s refusal to release Clara from their engagement? Consider both those he is willing to admit, those the author puts forth, and those we may suspect as students of human nature (as most readers surely are).
2. What emotions are at play in these chapters for the characters of Clara, Willoughby, Laetitia, and Vernon?
3. For what reasons is Clara reticent to share her concerns with her father? Are her concerns proved to have foundation?
4. How does Dr. Middleton respond to Clara’s request to be “taken away” for a few weeks? Do you believe that he would respond differently if Clara can bring herself to speak her truth?
5. Meredith’s intentions aside, could Willoughby be construed as “fighting for the woman he loves” with the tools at his disposal?
Do you have any suppositions on what Clara may do next?
6. What do you make of the way the other characters respond to Clara’s confidences?
Or feel free to comment on any aspect of the book up through Chapter 21.
Willoughby’s refusal to listen to Clara seems to have made her feel desperate, and she gets herself more entangled as she tries to escape. She is unwilling to be honest with her father, I think it’s both because she doesn’t want to disturb his peace of mind, and also because she instinctively realises he doesn’t understand her at all. Although he loves Clara, he finds having a daughter to be a burden, and is happy that this responsibility will pass to Willoughby. “…she was of the sex born mutable and explosive.” He sees her desire to escape for a few days as a whim, rather than the precursor to permanent freedom.
This dishonesty and Dr Middleton’s own selfish desire for a quiet life makes it easy for Willoughby to manipulate him with the fine wine. Middleton is doing what is convenient for him.
I’m a bit worried about Clara’s idea of turning to De Craye. He seems very frivolous - good fun at a dinner party but not reliable. Meredith tells us that he sees women as groups, not individuals, and he has pegged Clara as “a raging coquette” I think Clara will get into a worse fix if she encourages him, even unwittingly.
Of course it is Vernon who is giving the best advice, but Clara finds him harsh and unsympathetic.
In this section there are a lot of internal machinations, but not much in the way of concrete happenings. I guess it's the calm before the storm.Tellingly, even Clara's father calls her a "nymph of the woods" to Willoughby's face.
Mod
She is unwilling to be honest with her father, I think i..."
It’s almost as if Clara is afraid to be completely honest with her father. I can’t tell whether she is trying to protect Dr. M from having to deal with the reality or afraid that her father may deny her even after she exposes everything. Or maybe some of both.
I like Vernon for his advice. Ultimately, she needs to know whether her father will support her in adversity.
Mod
Tellingly, even Clara's father calls her a "nymph ..."
Yes, a narrative of much more internal conflict. I like the character development that we are seeing. And I’m finding Meredith’s style to be a little easier to process.
Renee wrote: "And I’m finding Meredith’s style to be a little easier to process..."As well as the rather dense style, I’ve also noticed that the absence of any sub plots takes some getting used to. I guess I’m more used to Victorian authors such as Trollope or Dickens, who have several strands of plot running along to break up the intensity of the main action. Here all the action revolves around Willoughby’s romances and we stay on his estate - new characters do turn up, but they are there to play a part in the main plot.
Mod
This is Brian #2 Pamela, you are so right. Funny, but just last night, after thinking again about whether this book's plot was sufficient to sustain such a long book, my mind went to the many Trollope's I have read. Specifically, I thought of The Way We Live Now, which had so many subplots that it took about 8 chapters and 80 pages to wrap them all up. I do like the one main plot and character development here but, with only the one plot, it should have been 2/3 the length at most.
I think this may be another Victorian novel that was stretched from 2 volumes to 3 volumes for publication purposes. I have only thought about volumes in Victorian novels since reading New Grub Street in this group.
I expect to feel similarly about the next Victorian novel I will read after finishing this one - Charlotte Bronte's Shirley. Her Villette also was a 3 volume novel that might have worked better as a 2 volume novel. Shirley is also listed as a 3 volume novel.
As I find Pamela and the other Brian's (Brian#1) comments are spot on, I don't have anything to add to the moderator questions.
So far, I'm finding Meredith's style to be George Eliot (complex sentences) Henry James (commentary and dialogue over action) and Oscar Wilde (florid wit) put in a blender. I'm not sure yet how much I like the resulting mixture, but it feels like it has the consistency of a very thick milkshake.
Mod
I think there are several factors involved in Willoughby's determination to keep Clara. One is, of course, his ego. She will be the second girl who will have rejected him. Both accepted his proposal and then broke the engagement, which (as we can see) is not something that was done lightly at that time. Since all his particulars remain the same after they accepted him (his social position and fortune remain constant), the only thing that is different is that the young women have spent more time with him by that point. He's having a hard time facing the fact that it could be him, personally, that they are trying to flee from. If he can keep Clara, he can keep telling himself that Constantia was just fickle and the fault was hers.
Since he only thinks about the world in relation to himself, he is only concerned with his own feelings, which are that he wants Clara to be his wife. He doesn't think about her feelings, or if he does, it is only to dismiss them as silly feminine folderol. He obviously doesn't spend any time at all considering what it would be like to be married to someone who doesn't love or like you, or maybe even actively despises you. I think his ego is such that he feels that if she marries him, she will come to appreciate the magnificence that is Willoughby, as others have.
Lastly, he has made it clear that he considers them as good as married already, and he's not (as Vernon noted) going to let what is his slip away so easily. In his mind, she belongs to him and no longer has the right to make the decision to leave.
Mod
I’d like to think that Willoughby believes she will come to appreciate him once married.... But we’ve seen that those around him must comply or suffer. I can’t believe that he is without that much self recognition as the “backup plan,” so long as his wife appears compliant to the world.
I keep thinking about his plans for Crossjay, who is welcome to Willoughby’s support as long as he “pleases” his benefactor. From Chapter 8... "If he pleases me, he will be provided for. I have never abandoned a dependent."
Renee wrote: "Cindy- I’d like to think that Willoughby believes she will come to appreciate him once married.... But we’ve seen that those around him must comply or suffer. I can’t believe that he is without th..."
My reading is that Willoughby cannot process that a worthy woman wouldn't love him; he is shocked by Clara wanting to break off the engagement, but is able to put it down to jealousy and I guess what we'd call 'cold feet'. I don't think he truly considers for a moment that she'd be miserable as his wife. Perhaps the age difference as well as the gender difference comes into play in him assuming a paternal 'I know what you want better than you' attitude?
It is interesting that in the early chapters he is the character that vocalises the traditionally romantic view of the lovers needing no one but each other and being in complete harmony with each other, whereas Clara recoils from that idea. Although Clara also seems to complain that he is too honest in presenting his faults to her and thinks he should have the decorum to be his best gentlemanly self around her. I believe Meredith expects the reader to be sympathetic with Clara, so I wonder what his views on love, romance and courtship are?
I wish Clara had been honest with her father, I think she wasn't because (as I think Vernon says?) she doesn't believe he'd be on her side. But it made it easy for Willoughby to get the plans changed back just with some vintage wine, and also probably reinforces Willoughby's idea that Clara isn't entirely serious about breaking with him and needs to be guided to her senses.
Mod
It’s disturbing how little Clara’s opinion seems to matter once she has accepted Willoughby’s proposal. She has a much better opportunity to evaluate their suitability now that they are getting to know one another. Yet, there is no room for amendment.
I know that being a “jilt” was considered a bad thing at some point in social history, but it was only leveled at women. I don’t know how much Clara needs to fear having her future damaged by social censure, but she seems to believe that marriage to Willoughby would be worse.
Renee wrote: "I know that being a “jilt” was considered a bad thing at some point in social history, but it was only leveled at women. "Although that pejorative is only used against women, from other things I've read in the period, if the man broke off the engagement he could be sued for breach of contract and deemed a cad?
I don't know the history exactly though, so if anyone can correct me on these points it'd be wonderful to know.
Renee wrote: "I found this on Breach of Promise... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breac..."
Thank you for the link that was very interesting. Strange to think the last breech of promise case in England was as recent as 1969!
Mod
Chapters 15-16
Clara builds up her courage to again ask Willoughby to release her from their engagement. Although she speaks plainly, Willoughby continues to act as though an end to their engagement were unthinkable. Clara goes for a walk with Laetitia and tells the other woman some of her thoughts, trying to make Laetitia understand beyond the seed planted by Willoughby concerning what he prefers to see as Clara’s jealousy. They part, each to her own thoughts.
Chapters 17-18
Colonel DeCraye arrives with the gift of a porcelain vase which gets broken when the carriage driver swerves to avoid Clara walking along the road by herself. Willoughby is disturbed to hear the tale and inclined to petty resentments. His friend DeCraye attempts to plead for Flitch to be rehired, but Willoughby remains firm that having “given up his place,” Flitch was not to be taken back. (Reiterating a theme which has been applied by Willoughby to all and anyone he considers HIS.) Laetitia and Vernon discuss his intention to leave the Hall and his concerns for Crossjay. Also, the reasons why Clara has not confided in her father, Dr. Middleton.
Chapter 19
Clara asks her father to take her away from the Hall, when she cannot bring herself to say she wishes to break her engagement. Her father thinks only of his own comfort and the pleasantries he has found at the Hall. The bell rings for luncheon and Dr. Middleton begs off further conversation. Clara claims a headache but is later drawn out by Colonel DeCraye (and a note from her father which she takes to mean they will soon depart from the Hall), and we see how light she might be in the company of a gentleman who does not oppress her. Crossjay is discovered to have waited through the afternoon of intermittent showers to receive the kiss she has promised him, which she joyfully bestows in the glow of her raised emotions at the prospect of freedom. The chapter ends with Clara asking the colonel to look after the boy’s best interests once she has gone… and he seems surprised to hear of her impending departure. As she leaves “He bowed, watched her a moment, and for parallel reasons, running close enough to hit one mark, he commiserated his friend Willoughby. The winning or the losing of that young lady struck him as equally lamentable for Willoughby.”
Chapters 20-21
Dr. Middleton is shown to be deeply appreciative of the delights of Willoughby’s table and the fineness of his wines. Willoughby manipulates his advantage, leading the older man to reconsider the promise made to his daughter and make light of her expressed desire to leave the Hall. When this change of plans is revealed, Clara is beside herself. She spends a sleepless night agonizing over her situation, and in the morning hears from Vernon that "Not many men would give up their prize for a word, Willoughby the last of any."