The Sword and Laser discussion

Over in the “what else are you reading?” thread Trike said this book was a Nope for him because of the subject matter - specifically child murder and serial killers (not really a spoiler as you find this out in the first chapter).

Now I’ve been enjoying it so far - I’m a fan of Joe Hill’s writing and Kate Mulgrew’s audiobook performance is excellent - but I am a little bit nervous about the content. Since I first became a parent a few years ago my tolerance for anything where children get hurt or die has gone way down, and as many of you will have already seen I now have a brand new baby at home.

So what does everyone think? Especially those who’ve already finished. Is the content a big ol’ nope for anyone who dislikes reading about children getting hurt, or is it handled in a sensitive enough way to make it ok? I’ll also be interested to hear Veronica’s own perspective.

I am not a horror fan in general and will pick up Bradbury horror-lite for Halloween. I know horror is a huge market and am glad to leave those fans to it. Child murder and serial killers are even worse for me.

As for parenting, it did kill some previous enjoyment for me. I remember when Aqualung came on the radio as I drove home, on my way to take my two year old to the park. I had previously loved the album. Anyhoo, the lyrics hit:

"Sitting on a park bench:
Hey, I do that, with my kid!

"Eyeing little girls with bad intent"
Um...yeah. That's not okay with me

"Watching as the pretty panties run"
*turns off radio*

I could no longer take that album as an allegory for all humans having worth. It had become too personal.

NOS4A2 is not about child murder!
Not the murder of children anyway. ha ha ha
Very clever thread title! It made me lol.

Think I'll start the book in a week or 2, see if I can finish it around halloween for maximum creepiness.

I am two thirds of the way in and no explicit violence on children.

The book has far more implied degradation and violence towards women (which I another trigger).

(view spoiler)[ More about the corruption of children although death may be involved as with traditional vampires.

The mothers are sexually violated off screen... Pretty revolting even at a remove

(hide spoiler)]

Child death is a massive nope from me because I've lived through that, I don't want it in my happy fun place. But horror and thriller in general is also a nope from me for the same reasons - I have no desire to be terrified in my happy fun place when I've had it in real life.

This is like page 2.

[image error]

https://ibb.co/tJncQ8Q

Look, I know it’s considered weak for men to be squeamish about violence, that we’re not “real men” if we can’t handle this stuff. I don’t care. That’s a bullshit toxic belief.

When I was a kid an adult on drugs tried to kill me. He stabbed my chest, aiming at my throat. I still have that scar. My friend was taking a study break while a freshman at college and she was snatched off the sidewalk by a serial killer. I make videos as a volunteer at a local domestic violence shelter and last month I interviewed a woman whose mother was murdered by the mom’s boyfriend. I’ve been stabbed twice, so this was extra real for me.

I spent yesterday afternoon interviewing a young woman whose mother was stabbed to death.

So you’ll have to excuse me if I don’t want to watch your goddamn movie where you use violence against women as entertainment.

— Trike (@Trike) September 11, 2021

When you make a 5-minute video from a 90-minute interview, you have to watch it over and over and over again. That’s not super pleasant in cases like these.

Here’s a similar video I made last year: https://youtu.be/JLam_RoNCmA Trigger warning, but it does have a positive ending.

If you haven’t had violence touch your life, you’re lucky. You’re privileged. Some people haven’t been so fortunate. That’s why things like this are a huge no-go for me. And for some reason this time of year always has violence top of mind for me, directly affecting my friends, so the timing of this book was bad.

These were my neighbors growing up. I babysat them. We went to school together. This, right here, THIS is why guns are bad. https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...

Trike (@Trike) September 30, 2020

Edit: had to strip out the “a href” stuff for the protection of Goodreads readers.

Trike wrote: "...

Look, I know it’s considered weak for men to be squeamish about violence, that we’re not “real men” if we can’t handle this stuff. I don’t care. That..."

I hope I did not imply that in my comment. I just wanted to clarify that there were other even more overt bad things happening.

I cannot watch movies that have this type of violence (and have walked out of at least one performance). I prefer my violence to be the Loony Tunes variety.

This book keeps most of the details at arms length (that and my inability to visualise) keeps it from getting too intense.

There are many books that I have "noped" on once I hit problematic areas.

I have torn a book apart that hit me with child death in the last paragraph with no warning. Nope, I do not want to go there.

Once in the book it feels a lot like Locke and Key.

Iain wrote: "Trike wrote: "...

Look, I know it’s considered weak for men to be squeamish about violence, that we’re not “real men” if we can’t handle this stuff. I don’t care. That..."

I hope I did not imply that in my comment. ..."

It wasn’t in response to your post. I’ve just been getting this sort of pushback a lot over the years because I don’t like those kinds of horror movies and books, so I wanted to head it off before it happens again.

I think it’s a sickness that men aren’t allowed to also be sensitive, that we aren’t allowed to express ourselves without our masculinity being questioned, that we aren’t allowed to have triggers or experience PTSD. We need to move those goalposts and acknowledge we aren’t robots so we can live healthier lives.

Trike wrote: "Iain wrote: "Trike wrote: "...

Look, I know it’s considered weak for men to be squeamish about violence, that we’re not “real men” if we can’t handle this stuff. I don’t care. That..."



👍

Elizabeth wrote: "I have no desire to be terrified in my happy fun place when I've had it in real life."

This sums up how I feel about horror - in books and in movies too. I don't know that there is a specific trigger that will cause me to automatically drop a book. But the point of a horror book is to make me feel scared, so when an author uses some kind of violence, I can't see it as anything but a device that the author is using callously to get me to feel a certain way.

I know that really this is the case for everything I read, but for some reason the horror genre makes me feel this more explicitly than in others.

I'm just here to express pleasure at the discussion topic, and to agree with the nopers.

I am reading Heart-Shaped Box instead because I already read (listened) & watched NOS4A2. HSB contains violence on women & dogs. You have been warned.

I started & never finished the movie Hostel 2 because it deeply disturbed me right away with a Lady Bathory-like scene. I usually enjoy a lot of horror in all it's forms. I don't expect others to like it, just as I hope others don't expect me to like certain types of entertainment.

I wish toxic masculinity weren't a thing, but I suspect that it always will be in some places.

Ian (RebelGeek) wrote: "a Lady Bathory-like scene"

Our own Veronica was in an actual Lady Bathory scene in an earlier life as "Virgin #5"

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489867/...

Folks, this book is not as scary or graphic as most Stephen King books and is NOTHING compared to the horrific, vile content in Black Leopard, Red Wolf that we read last year.

If you were able to get through that book, then this thing isn’t even in the same ballpark.

That’s not to say you should read it if you are squeamish about these sorts of things, but when it comes to graphic descriptions of violence towards women and children, this is not even CLOSE to the worst we’ve read lol.

Also, I agree with Ian - love the string title! :-)

I read a lot of horror/dark fantasy, but I could not get through BL,RW without feeling sick. I have about 5 hours left in the audiobook, but so far NOS4A2 is more a warning against grooming and the blind eye society turns toward it.

Buzz wrote: "Folks, this book is not as scary or graphic as most Stephen King books and is NOTHING compared to the horrific, vile content in Black Leopard, Red Wolf that we read last year."

Good point. And I'm glad you called it horrific and vile as that was my response as well. I gave up at about the 10% mark. It had been gross until then but at that point there was rape of children of both sexes. So much nope. I fail to understand why that book gets so much attention.

Horror is not my bag, so perhaps I'm unwilling to forgive themes that others are okay with. There do seem to be a lot of people enjoying this book. Same as BLRW. I'm fine to leave them to it.

In case anyone is curious, I finished Heart-Shaped Box & it left me feeling good. I gave it 4 stars!
It was more violent than what I remember of NOS4A2, though.

Well, I’ve noped out after two hours of the audiobook (about 10%). The writing and the performance are good but the repeated references to child cruelty, sexual violence and misogyny are too much for me. A shame because I’ve enjoyed the other books by Hill I’ve read.
Never mind!

Ian (RebelGeek) wrote: "In case anyone is curious, I finished Heart-Shaped Box & it left me feeling good. I gave it 4 stars!..."

Just added it to my Want to Read list :-)

John (Taloni) wrote: "...I gave up (on Black Leopard, Red Wolf) at about the 10% mark. It had been gross until then but at that point there was rape of children of both sexes. So much nope. I fail to understand why that book gets so much attention. Horror is not my bag.."

That's about where I abandoned BLRW for the exact same reason and wrote a scathing review lol.

I like some horror novels but it's not my go-to genre. Generally, the only horror I read is when Stephen King publishes a novel with a premise that piques my interest. For example I enjoyed Doctor Sleep because it was the sequel to The Shining and the movie was coming out. I also liked The Institute as well. I think by today's standards, those books are fairly tame horror-wise compared to other stuff out there. (but I wouldn't know lol)

I had to tap out after reading a little more than 200 pages of the paperback. In addition to the violence against women and children, this scene did me in:

(view spoiler)[When Bing Partridge is in the church and bird poop falls in his mouth and then he falls over and his hand hits a used condom full of maggots. (hide spoiler)]

I just could not read anymore.

Yeah that was really gnarly 🤢🤮

The gnomes from Dresden Files need to come and clean that church.

Having just finished the book I find that some of the trigger warning were misdirection. However, there are some other doozies in there.

(view spoiler)[

Well none of the kids die! They are kidnaped and trapped in a nightmare childhood, but they make it out in the end....

The book delves into some pretty dark places regarding mental illness and into violence to women. Vic fights back but has to go through hell.

The final scenes with her bats escaping the bridge is tragic and makes her death inevitable (should have kept Lou's jacket on).
(hide spoiler)]

It is fitting that Chekov's gun is a prop because all the events in the first part resonate by the end..

In the end a worthwhile read that could have been 200 pages shorter and had more impact.

Bing's actions just made me sadder (not more horrified) the more times he appeared.

I gave up after the scene at (view spoiler)[the de Zoets' home where Bing tells Sigmund about Giselle's body before he presumably tortures and kills them for their house so he and Manx can be closer to Vic. The narrative escalated from him narrating the disgusting things he did to women to extended scenes of helplessness (Nathan trapped in the Wraith, the above scene with the de Zoets) and reached a depressing tipping point. (hide spoiler)]

None of it is real, it’s fiction, thus it doesn’t bother me.

Iain wrote: "In the end a worthwhile read that could have been 200 pages shorter and had more impact..."

I agree this definitely could've been compressed a little. I did like it a lot and it definitely had a (view spoiler)[happier ending than most Stephen King (hide spoiler)] books lol.

Iain wrote: "In the end a worthwhile read that could have been 200 pages shorter and had more impact."

Something his dad is also guilty of. Both need strict editors.

Julie wrote: "Bing's actions just made me sadder (not more horrified) the more times he appeared.

I gave up after the scene at [spoilers removed]"

When I watched the show (back when it was new), I hadn't read the book yet & I was truly shocked (view spoiler)[when I found out Bing killed his parents, etc. (hide spoiler)] The writing & acting was so good.

Julie wrote: "Bing's actions just made me sadder (not more horrified) the more times he appeared.

I gave up after the scene at [spoilers removed]"

That's the same spot where I noped out.

Is this the highest nope rate so far?

I actually stopped years ago when a new character was introduced, but then seemingly killed off right away. This time I finished it and liked it, more for the fantasy and the good characters than the horror. I just think it could have been a little shorter, and more characters could have made it to the finish line. But that's the GRRM world we live in now.

Trike wrote: "Is this the highest nope rate so far?"

Maybe BLRW? Parable of the Sower generated some discussion about how very few of us were in the mood for dystopian fiction.

Trike wrote: "Is this the highest nope rate so far?"

Julie wrote: "...Maybe BLRW?..."

I would guess and agree with Julie that BLRW might've been higher - it was A LOT worse than this book with various nope triggers.

BTW, let me be clear that my statement is NOT meant as an indictment of it (BLRW) being selected as a monthly pic, just an observation. Even though I hated BLRW, I definitely don't hold it against S&L at all. In fact, I love that we pick books with a wide range of authors and styles. :-)

Trike wrote: "Look, I know it’s considered weak for men to be squeamish about violence, that we’re not “real men” if we can’t handle this stuff. I don’t care. That’s a bullshit toxic belief"

Blah - to hell with 'real men' and that whole toxic masculinity bullshit - it sucks that you've clearly felt pressured at some point to conform to something meaningless and destructive.

I've suffered no trauma. I have no kids and maybe my tastes would change if I did. I listen to true crime stuff in all its gory details and I'm fine with that. I often seek out horror, and the horrific. It doesn't make me sick or uncaring that I enjoy that sort of thing - and it doesn't make anyone weak for wanting nothing to do with it.

I really enjoyed this book - I loved the characters and the grim magic woven within it. Bing's treatment of women made me increadibly uncomfortable, more so even than similar true stories, for some reason, perhaps because seeing it from within is not pleasant, but the kid stuff was far milder than the beginning had led me to believe.

What Ruth said.

Buzz wrote: "That's about where I abandoned BLRW for the exact same reason and wrote a scathing review lol. ."

You might enjoy my scathing review of BLRW - I had to finish the entire thing because I was on a booklist committee that included it.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

An episode of my podcast just posted where my guest talked about why he loves horror so much and what the appeal is for him, and I think it's similar to what Ruth is saying - pushing the limits, enjoying the balance with the big bad, some pushing on creativity.... in that moment I drew a comparison to bonkers romance novels where people also can have interesting tastes that wouldn't be for everyone.

I don't think we need to disparage people who like a thing we aren't comfortable with, just saying. There's a line between saying "I do not like x and here is why" and saying "Nobody should like this because I do not like this."

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "You might enjoy my scathing review of BLRW..."

Nice review and much more gracious and tactful than mine (I’m hesitant to share it here because it’ll piss people off lol)

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: “…I don't think we need to disparage people who like a thing we aren't comfortable with, just saying. There's a line between saying "I do not like x and here is why" and saying "Nobody should like this because I do not like this” …"

One hundred thousand percent agree with you on that!! It gets silly in some of these discussions when some people insist their view is the only correct view and anyone else who disagrees is wrong. I never understand why people get so bent out of shape sometimes lol. It’s an opinion about a novel, right??

Ian (RebelGeek) wrote: "What Ruth said."

Agreed. What Ian said that Ruth said

I think the problem with Bing's violence is that there are too many scenes with it. I don't think we needed to know all the terrible things he did, just one or two examples and leave the rest to the imagination. Additionally, some scenes ended with a one sentence joke "He was well done" for example. That just came of as crass to me.

I haven't finished the book, but I sure hope Bing gets his come uppins. He's such a horrible, monstrous, creep.