The Baskerville Pups discussion

Now the Baskerville Pups will like to continue the canonical journey with The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes. This compilation written by ACD has twelve stories inside:

A Scandal in Bohemia SCAN
The Red-Headed League REDH
A Case of Identity CASE (no Granada)
The Boscombe Valley Mystery BOSC
The Five Orange Pips FIVE (no Granada)
The Man with the Twisted Lip TWIS
The Adventure of the Blue Carbuncle BLUE (Christmas Special!)
The Adventure of the Speckled Band SPEC
The Adventure of the Engineer’s Thumb ENGI (no Granada)
The Adventure of the Noble Bachelor NOBL
The Adventure of the Beryl Coronet (no Granada) BERY
The Adventure of the Copper Beeches COPP

This edition can extend until the early next year, since this would be lots of reading. The Adventure of the Blue Carbuncle (BLUE) would be our Christmas special for this December!

We can also follow along the majority of the stories by watching the Granada series. No specific order is necessary; however, when discussing a particular story, please leave the abbreviation (shown above) at the top of your comment.

Can we read these stories before the Blue Carbuncle before Christmas? We can have a challenge, and I might cook up something good, like goose!

Margie wrote: "We can do it. These are some of the best and most fun stories in the Canon. Easy reading! :)"

Yes! My favorite stories are in this collection. Can't wait to read them again ;D

Some of my favorite stories are in the Adventures. And The Blue Carbuncle episode is one of my favorite episodes of the Granada series.
I have gone through a couple anthologies from the British publisher, MX Publishing - all new Sherlock Holmes stories. Early on they did a volume of Holmes Christmas stories, and it made me wish that Conan Doyle did more seasonal tales than Blue Carbuncle.

So true! I have yet to put my hands on the MX publications. The Granada episode was spot on for sure. Shame Doyle didn't do anymore Christmas specials. I had to resort to his Tales for a Winter's Night.

SCAN

To introduce SCAN, I have a controversial question I'd like to present:
What is Holmes' gender orientation (in the Canonical sense)?

He says he never loved, he is a brain, etc. I know there's some interpretations that "ship" Holmes and Watson, but I see them as friends with a brotherly relationship. The Adler business however... just admiration of her methods, right? XD

There is always a big argument about the orientation issue. Holmes says he never loved, but in other stories he says things like, If I had a son, and If I ever married, so I think that he doesn't marry (in the Canon) is pretty much as he says - that he doesn't want to bias his judgement. He is all about his profession, and probably sees marriage, the "distractions" of a wife and children as being obstacles to that.

Margie wrote: "I've not read the MX anthologies but from what I've heard, that Christmas volume is the most popular of them all. From the polls I see on Twitter, the Granada BLUE is the favorite of the favorites...."

In one of the more recent MX books, there is a story that brings back Peterson the commissionaire - a very sweet story. I heard they might do another Christmas anthology.
I am not surprised that BLUE polls very high.

Perfect evidence:
"But love is an emotional thing, and whatever is emotional is opposed to that true cold reason which I place above all things."

Kind note:

There's a book challenge at the top of our homepage. I managed to figure out how to use it.

First plug in the amount of books you want to read for the challenge (in this case, six).

Then enter a name for the challenge (I named mine the-blue-carbuncle-challenge).
Hit save.

The name serves as a tag, so when you add a book to your read shelf, you can tag it with that challenge name.

Hope it isn't too much of a hassle :)

Same same same! Adler was quite happy with her marriage, I don't see it any other way. I do have a soft spot for Rachel Mcadams portrayal, however. Other than that, I disagree with the adaptations.

"A man entered who could hardly have been less than six feet six inches in height, wi th the chest and limbs of a Hercules. His dress was rich with a richness which would, in England, be looked upon as akin to bad taste. Heavy bands of Astrakhan were slashed across the sleeves and fronts of his double-breasted coat, while the deep blue cloak which was thrown over his shoulders was lined with flame- colored silk, and secured at the neck with a brooch which consisted of a single flaming beryl. Boots whic h extended half-way up his calves, and which were trimmed at the tops with rich brown fur, completed the impression of barbaric opulence which was suggested by his whole appearance. He carried a broad-brimmed hat in his hand, while he wore across the upper part of his face, extending down past the cheekbones, a black vizard mask, which he had apparently adjusted that very moment, for his hand was still raised to it as he entered. From the lower part of the face he appeared to be a man of strong character, with a thick, hanging lip, and a long, straight chin, suggestive of resolution pushed to the length of obstinacy."

Blimey, such a detailed description, Watson...

Yikes! If I ever have to explain the difference between technical writing and creative writing, I'll refer to this. Holmes, you really are an automaton!

The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes is fun to read!

Thoughts on Mrs. Turner? This is the first time Watson mentions the name of the landlady, right?

Margie wrote: "Well, as with everything Sherlockian, there is much discussion as to this Mrs. Turner. The quote does not make clear she is the actual landlady--- perhaps she is kitchen or serving help?-- and she ..."

That's quite interesting. I think Mrs. Turner quit after having to deal with Holmes' hogwash, and left all the work to Mrs. Hudson. She's the landlady, not the housekeeper, you know. 😆

No kidding, it seems as if Mrs. Turner was helping Mrs. Hudson. We can look at it this way: Mrs. Hudson already brought up a tray (because Holmes is turning hungrily on the fare the landlady provided), and Mrs. Turner was coming with another.

This lady is mysterious! Probably she hires and fires. I think we need a little more insight as to what goes on at 221B, besides the famous two.

Maybe she was the cook. At that time, cooks and housekeepers were often addressed as "Mrs." even if they weren't married. Maybe Mrs, Turner was a "Miss" who caught someone's eye and left. And Holmes remark about Mrs. Hudson's limited cuisine might just mean that, as housekeeper and landlady, she made up the menus and Mrs. Turner, the cook prepared them.

Ah, that's a good point!

"...but just as he reached her he gave a cry and dropped to the ground, with the blood running freely down his face..."

The magic of Heinz ketchup.

Hah! The stage lost a fine actor.

As for Mrs. Norton, yes, I agree with you definitely! Love over royalty. Off topic, I just saw the Thai king marriage— disgusting how the bride kneels in such a submissive manner.

I think I'll move along to John Clay too— must clear me brains ^^

I'd have to reread REDH for sure, I almost forgot the plot. I enjoyed the Granada episode for these reasons:

1. That jump over the couch Holmes did was so Holmes.
2. What an outburst of laughter!
3. Tim McInnerny! One of my favorite actors from Blackadder.

"3. Tim McInnerny! One of my favorite actors from Blackadder. "

Made me think of how many times you see actors in the British series who you know from another series. In the Granada "Sign of Four" the character of Jonathan Small is played by John Thaw who was the star of the "Inspector Morse" series.

Ha! Yes, I love pointing the actors out in the episodes ^^. I laughed when I saw Jude Law in "Shoscombe Old Place." Unrecognizable!

That sounds rather interesting! I can picture it as well— a long line of red heads :D

The whole red headed advertisement ordeal reminds me of the scholarships I skim through; better yet, the Get Well Card sketch by Fry and Laurie. Things are so specific sometimes (^o^)

I would like to read your pastiche - is there a link to the book?
BTW, the British publisher MX Publishing has been doing volumes of pastiches for a few years, and I was able to read a few of them. In one of them there is a story called "Another Case of Identity" that brings back Mary Sutherland's stepfather. It's one I mentioned in another post about a story that brings in the Diogenes Club in an interesting way.

I second Barbara's statement: your pastiche in "Sherlock Holmes of Baking Street" is of interest! Tunneling is a reoccurring cliché in today's stories, I say. Also, Ms Sutherland is a poor creature, being betrayed like that.

I will say one more thing about IDEN and Mary Sutherland. There is a similarity to poor Miss Rucastle in Copper Beeches and to Helen Stoner in Speckled Band - they all have money in their own right and the fathers - or stepfathers - seem to have the use of it as long as the daughter stays unmarried and lives at home.

Agreed! I read that poem from the John Openshaw society. Those days were not in favor of a woman's independence and rights. We read from the men's POV. Remember in the Golden Pince Nez (Granada) when Mycroft and Hopkins(?) went to the ladies' meeting? I'm ever so thankful that things changed in today's world. I just watched some old videos of Liverpool during the 1900s— the living conditions were... interesting.

You have a point, Barbara. It's a recurrence of selfish fathers of some sort. I wonder if this happened often in reality (Doyle got his ideas from somewhere I suppose, ha).

Yep, for sure x(

The living conditions in that era might not have been good, but conditions for women were improving a bit. Around the early 1880s, they passed something called The Woman's Property Acts - that might not be exactly the name - which allowed women to keep their own property and income after marriage. Before that, any money a woman had before she got married was her husband's after, unless it was put in some kind of trust. Women were also getting into professions like medicine, they had university education more available so they could be self-supporting.

True, I actually read a nice passage from Three Guineas by Virginia Woolf yesterday. Advocacy was going around quite alot, with gradual improvement. Of course there are these pics of Cambridge as well: https://graphicarts.princeton.edu/201... DX
I also like that picture of the three women who graduated as Western physicians from Drexel's College of Medicine in 1885... quite nice.

Yep, even today. ^^

I read a kindle book - a novella - called Rucastle's Pawn that is The Copper Beeches but from the point of view of Violet Hunter. It was very well done but what was just as interesting was the author's essay on governesses of the day. She mentions how Violet Hunter's "a little French, a little German, etc" would have been mediocre by the standards of the day when the governess ads - the ones seeking governesses and the governesses seeking employment - mentioned things like the sciences, degrees, things we associate with higher education.

Oh yes indeed. Like a top of the line private tutor, today's governesses are paid quite well, too (especially during the pandemic). From an educators point of view, they specialize in the needs, interests and educational development of the individual child since they don't have to share their attention with an entire class. From my personal experience, I found it very beneficial to have that one on one interaction. To have an expert at hand would be quite splendid too... but an expert in which field, I wonder? I don't think she'd specialize in 6-8 subjects...

I wonder what's worse, dealing with the family of one child or dealing with an entire classroom and school board, ha!

That is amazing, to get so much done in half an hour. I would think those things would take longer than that. This guy's a busy bee!

One thing that's not clear is when its said that McCarthy had one son who was eighteen, the same age as Turner's daughter - is that the age they are when the story opens, or had been years ago. Because in England, I don't think you could marry without a parent signing off on it until you were 21, so I don't know if that registry office wedding to the barmaid would have been legal in any case.
Made me think of Noble Bachelor where Hatty is accosted by Flora and says that Lord St. Simon had a secret of his own before marriage. I wonder if Lord S. had some kind of quickie marriage to Flora - there were several scandalous marriages in the day, rich aristocrats marrying dance hall girls.

I had the impression that Flora was upset because Lord St Simon encouraged her to assume that they would eventually get married. I doubt he would ever compromise his social standing by actually doing so. I like that in the Granada version of Scandal, the king admits that he did lead Irene on in assuming they would marry, which is why she is so upset with him marrying someone else. The Granada Irene is not a vindictive person. She was deceived on a very serious matter and her reaction was appropriate.

Interesting cases going on here. I have yet to read BOSC.
You have a point, Ellie. I had a slight doubt about Adler's motives, but you cleared it up for me. She had every right to take such action. Also, welcome to the group.

Interesting that in the story she says she will keep the photograph to safeguard herself for the future, but in the Granada version, they show her throwing it into the water when she and Norton sail away.

Hum. That's something to think about. I was also wondering how Norton felt about this entire matter. I suppose she explained it to him.

Oh one of my favorites, FIVE! Now that's a well described narrative. "... the wind cried and sobbed like a child in the chimney," sends chills down my spine.

I thought Mary had no relatives? (The many wives of Watson, a conspiracy theory...)

Also, it's sad but heart warming at the same time hear that Watson is Holmes' only friend. ^^

I have read the original stories and watched the Granada episodes so many times the past 3+ decades that I can no longer relate to discussions like “which story is the best mystery?” Instead I usually wonder about things like how the original readers responded to them. This one must have seemed exotic and threatening with its talk of the shadowy KKK from the rebellious former colony of the USA, the country which seemed to give Sir Arthur a prolific source of both terrible villains and noble heroes.

Years ago the phrase “sobbing of a child in the chimney” sent me to online searches of children as chimney sweeps which is rather horrifying reading.

Also a great example of tell me without telling me. Newly married Watson immediately goes back to bunk up with his bestest buddy once Mary is out of town. I imagine the Watson household the day before the story begins: “John dear, if you have your traveling bag ready, our hansom to Victoria Station is waiting. What a happy circumstance that Mr Holmes can put you up for a few nights while I am gone.” On Holmes’ end, his comment “Except yourself I have none” seemed to me both practical and affecting. A person described as a “perfect reasoning and observing machine” has no need of friends; plus, he only needs one if it is someone like Watson, his trusty, brave, devoted biographer.

You're right, Ellie. FIVE and STUD must have been very controversial. Sir Arthur had to apologize to the Mormon community for A Study in Scarlet, didn't he? He was so well informed and his stories seemed to hit the hot topics of the days.
The history of the child in the chimney is haunting; it shocked me when I first heard of it. But, living conditions weren't all fun back then.
And yes, an automaton like Holmes thrives on problem solving, making company unnecessary... unless it's his Boswell, who he is lost without. :)

Monique wrote: "
I thought Mary had no relatives?

There are a couple chronologists of the Holmes canon and one of the most respected is William Baring Gould. In his Annotated Sherlock Holmes he puts the stories in his chronological order and puts FIVE in Sept '87, and SIGN in Sept '88.
If this is the case, Watson's FIVE wife wouldn't have been Mary - but when, in the 6 years between his meeting with Holmes and FIVE did he get married? And to whom?

Ahh, that explains everything... kinda... I think I'll leave the controversies alone for now XD. Almost forgot about the chronologies, thank ya Barbara :)

Also, Granada definitely handled Holmes' development quite well. I like that part in SIXN (did I do that abbreviation right :\ ) when Lestrade compliments Holmes: you can almost see tears in his eyes :'D

Margie wrote: "Hi, Barbara: Thank you for your interest in the story.

I finally got down to the little indie that got the book for me. I thought the production was very good - I am seeing a lot of smaller presses that are putting out volumes that look as good as the ones from the majors. I thought the presentation was a little disorganized, but some pretty impressive writers. My favorite stories were
The Child in the Wood (was that Margies?)
What She Kneaded
The Dundas Separation Case
The Adventure at Old Basingstoke

The cost was high, but not prohibitive, but then I'm a book buyer. The MX anthologies are quite expensive - $40 for the hardbacks, maybe $28 for trade paperbacks and the Kindles are around $17 I think - a lot of the money goes to charity, but that's still high for a lot of people. I always tell people to ask their library to order a copy of a book they might not be able to afford - you'd be surprised how often the library is open to that.

Margie wrote: "Hi, Barbara,

I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the book. It was good fun to do; so many of our Sherlockian friends stepped up to donate their work. All net proceeds from the book are sent to The Beacon..."

Maybe not "disorganized" - I probably just expect the short stories to be together.. The MX anthologies are set up a little different with the essays up front and then the stories in chronological order.
I also thought the book production itself was very high quality, good paper stock, nice cover, layout was excellent, and I do like "theme" books.

Margie wrote: "If you really want to fall down a chronology rabbit hole, Watson specifically writes that this story, FIVE, is set in September 1887.

Holmes says to his client: 'I haven been beaten four times--t..."

There's another woman! Ohhh I'm curious.....