Tournament of Books discussion

Question for everyone that I can't answer with the statistics, but which came to me as I was doing some analysis today:

In all the voting, there was only polling questions that asked which books you loved. There was no opportunity to tell me which books you did not love aside from just not voting for them.

However, before assigning the matches, I asked judges if there were any books on the shortlist that they felt they couldn't give a fair reading. As I said over on the judgement for today, Milkman is the only book that anyone asked to avoid, and more than one person requested not to have to revisit it. (Another judge mentioned relief that A Little Life was not in the running, which I understand...but also I passionately adore A Little Life.)

The are a number of books that go no votes in the first round, and some of them were panned pretty enthusiastically in the discussion at the time, but what I find myself wondering about is which books from the ToB are the most polarizing. Which books that some people love do others really *dislike*?

So if I had offered people a negative vote - the opportunity to vote *against* any book making the tournament, is there a book that you would have wanted to use that vote on? If so, which one?

Ooh! I have disliked a lot of the artier/experimental books quite a bit (Ban en Banlieu eg) but the book I read and really hated as pretentious dreck was probably Hill William! I read it long after the original tourney but only picked it up due to its past presence on a shortlist and then I wanted to shake whomever gave it a seed in the first place!

Looking at my mostly complete TOB shelf, I have graded 95/102 as 3 star or above. The two one star books were Pride of Baghdad, which I love Brian K Vaughan and think Saga and Paper Girls are both remarkable so I think that the experiment of adding in a graphic novel was unfortunately marred by using one of the author's worst books. The other was The Book of Joan, which I had such high hopes for when it was assigned, weird, sci-fi experimental is normally in my wheelhouse but it was such a struggle and ultimately no payoff.

Two of the 2-star books are the first 2 books that came to mind when you mentioned the thread. White Tears and Lost Children Archive, both of which mostly just did not work for me. All the comments about LCA still feel like an elaborate prank.

I think I was the judge who expressed relief about A Little Life, because it is the rare TOB book that I actively loathe! To be fair to the book, though, I associate it with a traumatic time in my life and the over-the-top nature of the story was simply too much for me. I don't think I ever would have loved it, but the timing made general dislike into something bigger.

I can't think of any other TOB books that I strongly dislike, mostly because I quit books pretty quickly if I know they're not gelling with me. If I had persisted, I might have ended up hating them. There are a lot of TOB books that I'm indifferent to--not mad to have read them but not really feeling the love. I think that speaks to the general high quality of books selected.

I think Call Me Zebra would be one of the most hated books. Fever Dream also seems to be very polarizing.

Kip wrote: "Looking at my mostly complete TOB shelf, I have graded 95/102 as 3 star or above. The two one star books were Pride of Baghdad, which I love Brian K Vaughan and think Saga and Paper G..."

yeah, Pride of Baghdad was definitely a rare miss! I recently read a new Roxane Gay graphic novel (The Sacrifice of Darkness) and thought it was terrible too so I guess good writers can often miss in the format - or maybe the editing is different for established authors.(?)

Tristan wrote: "I think Call Me Zebra would be one of the most hated books. Fever Dream also seems to be very polarizing."'

Ohh, yes. I actively wish I could get back the time I wasted on Call Me Zebra

I'm going to confine my dislikes to the 16 here in the ToF. I actively dislike Stephen Florida, and I will be forever sad if it (or The Animators) wins this ToF, defeating what I see as much more masterful novels.

There are things I do admire about it. Habash's writing is really good, and the story is propulsive. I think it took a lot of courage to write a book totally about a character as unlikeable as Stephen, and Habash created a fully-developed and imaginable character.

But what I actively disliked is that I felt terribly, physically, mentally icky after reading the book. Stephen seems, to me, like a person who is guaranteed to fail, in just a hot minute after the story ends. If he were a real person, I'd predict he'll end up in prison, and very soon (and that is a fate I can hardly bear for any human). The cards of life are stacked against him. He is clearly verging on mental illness; he is mostly gross, rude, frightened, obsessive, selfish, and foul-mouthed. So much so that the story seemed not wholly credible -- I felt like it jumped the shark at some point; and the only reason I could attribute any possibility of credibility to the story is because Stephen is in such a tiny place, at such a lowly ranked college, and we stay there with him for such a short time. At the end, I was left feeling without any hope at all for the future of this entirely pitiable guy. But all these things that I dislike about this book may be exactly what cause others to love it.

I hadn't read it before this ToF and didn't want to read it. I read it only because it is in this ToF. I didn't dislike it enough while reading to fail to make it to the end -- no DNF here. But I don't like how it makes me feel.

Kip wrote: "Looking at my mostly complete TOB shelf, I have graded 95/102 as 3 star or above. The two one star books were Pride of Baghdad, which I love Brian K Vaughan and think Saga and Paper G..."

The Book of Joan was based on a premise that was such a fundamental misunderstanding of the way genetics actually works that I wanted to set it on fire. To be honest, I think calling it sci-fi is an insult to the rest of the genre and science overall. It had less to do with reality than your average high fantasy.

Tristan wrote: "I think Call Me Zebra would be one of the most hated books. Fever Dream also seems to be very polarizing."

Fever Dream was definitely polarizing! The Vegetarian as well if I recall. Both were insidiously creepy and, to my mind, uniquely feminine. Adding Milkman to this polarizing list makes that a theme.
The 2nd theme for polarization might be unlikeable/gross/weird MC's: Stephen Florida, MC in Zebra etc.

Kip wrote: "Two of the 2-star books are the first 2 books that came to mind when you mentioned the thread. White Tears and Lost Children Archive, both of which mostly just did not work for me. All the comments about LCA still feel like an elaborate prank..."

That's so funny, those were two of my favorites! (Completely agree with you on Book of Joan, though. Such a disappointment.)

I also disliked A Little Life. Much as I admired it, and felt it was important, I left feeling battered over the head. It was just too much.

I'm relatively new to "completion" reading attempts, so my list of opinions is small, but I would be shocked and cranky if Overthrow or Oval made it to the short list. Oof, Overthrow. I was nonstop grouchy about that one and SO bored. Boring is (to me) the biggest offense a piece of art can make. At least other books I disliked (like Tender is the Flesh) had energy to upset me!

This is going back a few years, but I remember a very polarizing debate over 2666. Bolano fans were ardent supporters and others just despised it.

I probably got a little too carried away in my support for it ….

Dear Cyborgs and How Should a Person Be? were both 2-star reads for me and I know there was some love for those (particularly Cyborgs)

Elizabeth wrote: "That's so funny, those were two of my favorites!."

And based on your bookshelf we tend to overlap on our opinions of books pretty consistently. I even went back and reread most of LCA, I think there are a few moments of brilliance but overall couldn't get anywhere with it. Music is my other big passion along with books, and I give very little leeway if I don't like how a book writes about music. I am aware this misses the mark completely on WT but here we are.

Maggie wrote: "The Book of Joan was based on a premise that was such a fundamental misunderstanding of the way genetics actually works ."

Yeah Book of Joan may not even fit in the mold of discussion actually because I don't remember much support.

Amy wrote: " I recently read a new Roxane Gay graphic novel (The Sacrifice of Darkness) and thought it was terrible too"

I think that most my only 5 star graphic lit from an author writing in that style (ugh this is atrocious language but I don't know how to fix it) is the Good Talk: A Memoir in Conversations and she basically taught herself how to do the art side of the memoir for this specifically. Most of what I really like are one person doing art/words. I think it's really hard.

You're asking for one book, so I'll say Call Me Zebra. But it has some stiff competition from Sudden Death.

I find this thread a little unsettling, actually. Nevertheless, I post.

I don't think there have been any tournament books (ToF or ToB) that I've hated on their own merits (despite how I may come across in the comments!). It feels like an awfully strong response to an entirely avoidable experience; one that can be resolved in a moment's notice with a DNF. There have been a few books I've put aside after trying to give them a fair shake, none of which I would say I hated. In fact, a DNF is more likely an indication that they didn't stir any kind of a response from me other than "shouldn't I be doing something else right now?"

On the other hand, I do have some emotional investment in the tournament match outcomes!! Any books that I've felt animus towards have been those books that have (inexplicably!) displaced my (unassailably objectively assessed!!) favorites, and have taken victory laps despite being so obviously (!) the second place book (I'm looking at you, =Normal People=).

Hate the sin, not the sinner, right? I hate that =Normal People= keeps winning matches (thankfully, it didn't show up in the ToF), but the book itself? Without the tournament? Not a second thought after the first "meh."

Life's too short to spend your passion on things you don't like.

Kip wrote: "5-star graphic novel... Good Talk: A Memoir..."

Good Talk is AMAZING! (I just got my neighbor to read my copy last week!) And, crazy thing - it makes a great audiobook as well! Memoir is how I discovered graphic novels in the first place and GN has become my favorite medium for memoir. The Best We Could Do, Persepolis, They Called Us Enemy were all fantastic!

I'll second Tim's point about Normal People. It's at the top of my list for "actively disliking" ToB books, but it's mainly because of how much winning it did and how much attention it got that took away from (what I believe to be) MUCH better books. Also, it's just not in my realm of interest (white cis/hetero sexual relationship drama), so I'm not the reader for it. And I'm of course keeping my distance from the tv adaptation. If it had never been part of the ToB I wouldn't have read it and it would have been easier to ignore the buzz about it.

I think the goal of being a completist every year is what prevents some of us from the easy DNF solution to the books that aren't a good match for us.

I'll go down the rest of the ToF longlist (deleting the ones I haven't read) to show how I strangely didn't connect with a lot of these favorites. I'll admit part of it could be that many of these were listened to as audiobooks, which doesn't work for all ToB-style books, but some of them were great on audio and I've been trying to read more of them in print lately. Most of my favorites either didn't make it to the short list or they've been knocked out early. Oh well - it's still been fun!

The Animators by Kayla Rae Whitaker (2018) Liked it, but don't really get how it could be a favorite

Beautiful Ruins by Jess Walter (2013) Liked it, but don't really get how it could be a favorite

Dept. of Speculation by Jenny Offill (2015) Meh

Exit West by Mohsin Hamid (2018) Don't remember enough from my listen years ago

Girl, Woman, Other by Burnardine Evaristo (2020) LOVED it

The Goldfinch by Donna Tartt (2014) Liked it, but don't really get how it could be a favorite

Homegoing by Ya’a Gyasi (2017) LOVED it

The House of Broken Angels by Luis Alberto Urrea (2019) LOVED it

Idaho by Emily Ruskovich (2018) Liked it, but audio wasn't ideal

Life After Life by Kate Atkinson (2014) Meh

Lincoln in the Bardo by George Saunders (2018) Didn't work on audio

Lost Children Archive by Valeria Luiselli (2020) Liked it, love-adjacent

Milkman by Anna Burns (2019) Didn't really work for me, but I get why others would love it

Never Let Me Go By Kazuo Ishiguro (2006) Don't remember enough from my listen years ago

The Nix by Nathan Hill (2017) Liked it, love-adjacent

Nothing to See Here by Kevin Wilson (2020) Liked it, not quite in the realm of love though

Pachinko by Min JIn Lee (2018) Liked it, but I remember it being fairly depressing. Happy to see it do well though.

Salvage the Bones by Jesmyn Ward (2012) Liked it

Sing, Unburied, Sing by Jesmyn Ward (2018) Liked it, love-adjacent

Skippy Dies by Paul Murray (2011) Not for me

The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller (2013) Meh

Stephen Florida by Gabe Habash (2018) Meh

A Tale for the Time Being by Ruth Ozeki (2014) Liked it, love-adjacent

There There by Tommy Orange (2019) LOVED it (can't wait for the sequel!)

The Tsar of Love and Techno by Anthony Marra (2016) Don't remember enough from my listen years ago

Version Control by Dexter Palmer (2017) Liked it

Where’d You Go Burnadette by Maria Semple (2013) Liked it, but don't really get how it could be a favorite


From the longer long list, I remember seeing An Untamed State which was in the ToB before my time. I read it earlier this year and was kind of angry about it. Its only saving grace for me was that I'm familiar with Roxane Gay's personal experience through her memoirs, so I saw that novel as a way for her to process her trauma, but to me it was waaaay over the top in being a traumatic reading experience, with very little pay off. I was hoping it would go much deeper into some of the themes but for me just ended up being a horrible reading experience that wouldn't have left me with much to discuss. How did those conversations go back when it was in the tournament? I guess I could take the time to look through old ToB websites and find it, but maybe I'm more curious about the years-later-hot-takes from those who remember. ;)

Lauren wrote: "How did those conversations go back when it was in the tournament? ..."

Yikes! Do you really want to open up that door again?

Violently and passionately, let's say.

I found A Little Life to be tough going but it also taught me a lesson!

Early on in the novel whoever the artist character was in the book has an art piece he's working on that he's making from African American hair clippings gathered from barber shops. I thought the author was really stretching things to make a point, and then irl I saw a giant installation at the Whitney made of African American hair clippings, "Untitled" by David Hammons, and here it is:

https://whitney.org/collection/works/...

lark wrote: "I found A Little Life to be tough going but it also taught me a lesson!

Early on in the novel whoever the artist character was in the book has an art piece he's working on that he's making from Af..."

Oh my...

Kip wrote: "Looking at my mostly complete TOB shelf, I have graded 95/102 as 3 star or above. The two one star books were Pride of Baghdad, which I love Brian K Vaughan and think Saga and Paper G..."

LCA was completely overrated in my view too. The lost-in-the-desert scene was pretty good, but overall the book just moped around self-importantly. And that's why it earns a top seed in the Tournament of Topical-Art Wannabes, where it will also be getting my Corpse Vote, meaning it's the one I most want to stay dead throughout the successive rounds.

Kip wrote: "Two of the 2-star books are the first 2 books that came to mind when you mentioned the thread. White Tears and Lost Children Archive, both of which mostly just did not work for me. All the comments about LCA still feel like an elaborate prank. "

So interesting as these would be two of the books in my own personal tournament of favorites. I loved White Tears so much and only read it because of the tournament - and when I disliked his more recent book it was so painful.

It's funny because I think several are thinking this way - hating a book is almost more of a vote in my mind than the ambivalent DNF - at least I felt something, even if it was hate, haha!

In the past few years, the book I have just not understood but has been in the tournament and won all the awards is Interior Chinatown. It felt like a moral lesson and was totally unenjoyable to read.

Oh and then there are those books I could not force myself to read like Mary Toft.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "hating a book is almost more of a vote in my mind than the ambivalent DNF."

Oh certainly, I DNF'ed several but those don't awaken the animus of hate. It's the books that you stick out due to outsized expectations that hurt you the most.

And don't you dare speak ill of our Rabbit Queen. (obviously in jest, the difference in opinions make the agreements burn brighter)

By far the most divisive book I remember in in the ToB was A Little Life. People either were completely bowled over by it (me) or loathed it fiercely. In my memory, every discussion that year, no matter which two books were being discussed, circled back to A Little Life. Her The People in the Trees was such a surprise shocker its year -- it kept winning its rounds, with the judges saying, I was disgusted, I was horrified, oh, my god -- but I've never read anything like it, so I have to advance it. But Yanagihara was no longer an unknown entity the year of A Little Life, even though the books were so wildly different.

There were so many books I actively disliked over the years, but most of them didn't get too far (I'm looking at YOU, Ban en Banlieue and Wittgenstein Jr). It was only the two that WON that I save my special ire for. I didn't hate either Normal People or Fever Dream, but I simply did not see what others saw in them, and when they won! ooh. Why, I oughta.... still sputtering about both.

Ellen wrote: " didn't hate either Normal People or Fever Dream, but I simply did not see what others saw in them, and when they won! ooh. Why, I oughta.... still sputtering about both. ..."

I agree that both are weird choices, for such different reasons though. I loved Fever Dream--easily a 5 start read for its creepy amazingness--but it's short and a little one-note and I would never have given it the rooster! Sally Rooney, well. I just don't get it.

Personally, I wouldn't really want to be anti-book to anyone's favorite. For example, I remember one ToB fan or two that could really explain 'The Book of Joan' and I'm glad those readers found that book anyway.

It's interesting Amy mentions 'Hill William' at the top, but not for the reasons I would think. If we remember, before the tournament started, the writer expressed he didn't want his book included in the tournament anyway, then went on to beat 'The Luminaries'. So if I HAD to unvote a book, it would probably be 'Hill William' and do the writer a favor. (I was hoping 'The Luminaries' would have been included in the ToFs just because it was booted to a book that didn't want to be there anyway... even though I haven't read 'The Luminaries' yet.)

Tim - winners couldn't make it to ToF so I shudder to think what would have happened if 'Normal People' would have been eligible! So I will give my anti-vote to the overrated and that would be for 'Normal People'. I echo all of what Lauren said about 'NP' here.

I will still express my undying love for 'Call Me Zebra'!

I know I'm in a small camp here but Stephen Florida was my worst ever read. I can't think of anything more boring than the life of a teenage boy and one who thinks about wrestling all the time is even grosser...I guess it just reminded me too much of high school.

You can say about Hill William though that it has a very strong voice!

Yeah, Janet -- actually, many of the books in the ToF are head-scratchers to me, because they are books I barely remember. I didn't hate them -- they just did nothing for me and I had to go look them up to get any sensory memory of them at all, and even then sometimes I couldn't. Stephen Florida was definitely one of them, along with The Animators, Idaho, Skippy Dies, and The Tsar of Love and Techno. I re-read all of these except Idaho before the tournament started -- and they still did nothing for me, and now, once again, I remember little of Animators and Tsar. Skippy Dies is interesting because I remember not objecting to it when I read it originally for the ToB, but this time I found it downright objectionable. I think I'll remember it, though! The books in this ToF that have real staying power for me are Pachinko, Version Control, Never Let Me Go , and Nothing to See Here. I'm sorry to see 3/4 of them go.

I mean, I'm looking back a little more kindly on "Normal People" having read her new one, which I liked. I guess my reaction was more "really? that much fuss over THIS?" because it seemed like a middle-of-the-road romance. I've not really had a distaste for any of the books, just a "this was 3 stars" response.

I did think ALL was a little melodramatic and over-the-top, but I also found a lot of it affecting, so I guess I'm in the middle of the road here.

Yup, Kyle, that's how I felt about Normal People, too -- so just could not understand how it kept beating out, in my opinion, much better and CERTAINLY more interesting books.

So, in order to avoid the cleaning I'm supposed to be doing, I just looked back at all the years of the ToB in order to confirm something I thought was true -- that I rarely agree that the winner should be the winner. Even if I look at it marginally -- that a book I like a lot, if not my favorite, won -- I only come up with 5/17, and if I look at books I thought were the "best" in their year, the total is 3/17. So -- well, so. I don't know what that says. That I'm out of synch with the judges? That I have weird or lousy taste? Hmmm. Don't know. I know I'm OLDER than most of them -- and probably most of y'all, as well. I'm sure that affects my judging.

Or I could go with the only book I attempted and DNF from the ToB shortlists (I'm persistent): Savage Theories.

I struggle with Sally Rooney and Normal People because I read genres other than literary fiction. I can see her playing with the tropes found in romance and young adult, and I do not find her work any more elevated than those supposed lesser works. They hype surrounding her work doesn't match the content. I know this is unfair to Sally who has no control over how other people interact with her work, but I cannot get over her being bestowed "the first great millennial novelist."

Amanda wrote: "I struggle with Sally Rooney and Normal People because I read genres other than literary fiction. I can see her playing with the tropes found in romance and young adult, and I do not find her work any more elevated ..."

I'm with you, Amanda. If the language in a book feels too pedestrian I put it down. I want a book to sound in my ear like great writing, and as deliberate as poetry.

Normal People was a book that I enjoyed very much, in large part because of my enjoyment of "Wonder Years"-esque, love-remaining-through-times-of-change narratives and a cultural bias favoring Irish literature. I knew that it was a popular book when I encountered it, but I hadn't heard of Sally Rooney and her critical reputation. When I joined the Commentariat for the first time in 2020, I found that I was far behind many others in their condemnation of her and her critically-bestowed status, and a year and a half later I must repeat that I simply don't get it. I am looking forward to reading her next book, though.

For my Anti-Favorite book, I'll echo what Heidi said up about Overthrow, a book without a point or an audience that was criminally boring. I even gave it my "Extreme Repulsiveness" Award for Least Favorite Book in my personal literary awards last year. For this year, the only real competitor from the ToB would be Tender Is the Flesh but, again like Heidi, I will give it credit for at least inspiring a strong response of disgust unlike the apathy of Overthrow.

Amanda wrote: "I struggle with Sally Rooney and Normal People because I read genres other than literary fiction. I can see her playing with the tropes found in romance and young adult, and I do not find her work ..."

I think this was the key part of my annoyance with NP and her books in general: "the first great millennial novelist." Just no. So many other writers to focus on. But I'll stop here; no need to open those old wounds further.

Ellen, I just looked at the past winners and my stats are:
5/17 happy with that book winning
2/17 that was the best book of the tournament, so I definitely agree with it winning

Right there with you! I tend to have different tastes than most judges or the final outcome, but always appreciate how many wonderful books I find because of the ToB.

I'm still pouring out drinks for A Girl Returned, The Knockout Queen, Red at the Bone, and Sabrina & Corina not getting their time in the sun. ;)

I recently realized that the release of the long list is probably my favorite part of the whole thing because I get to excitedly purchase a bunch of books in the hopes they'll make the short list, and then try to cram them into a about six weeks of reading to have an informed zombie vote. Frantic, but exhilarating!

Isaac wrote: "Normal People was a book that I enjoyed very much, in large part because of my enjoyment of "Wonder Years"-esque, love-remaining-through-times-of-change narratives and a cultural bi..."

Yes - Overthrow!! I forgot about that one. What a slog to get through. And yeah, Tender was too much for me...

The tournaments are more an entertaining add-on to what I love most about the whole thing - the long list. I've gotten so much joy from books that never even made the short list that I'm pretty relaxed about whatever happens in the competition. The only example of a long-list-only book I can think of off the top of my head is Seven Surrenders, which is the second volume of a sci fi series that I now adore.

I also owe the Tournament big-time for showing me that while I'm not an unquestioning fan of experimental fiction, I usually love it when it's applied to historical fiction, starting with Sudden Death - which taught me that maybe the only way to conceptualize the problems of writing history is to play with them.

Nadine wrote: "Tmaybe the only way to conceptualize the problems of writing history is to play with them. ..."

-so- interesting, Nadine. A lot of historical fiction lovers want zero playing. I love it too--Sudden Death and Laurus and Tyll are all big favorites, and The Underground Railroad is great too.

One of my disappointments with Everyone Knows Your Mother Is a Witch was how truthfully Galchen adhered to the facts, and that's what other people love about the novel.

lark wrote: "Nadine wrote: "Tmaybe the only way to conceptualize the problems of writing history is to play with them. ..."

-so- interesting, Nadine. A lot of historical fiction lovers want zero playing. I lov..."

All those books you mentioned are favorites of mine too. I did love 'Your Mother' though, which I see as subversive history too - because Katharina was such a wild character in her own way, as much as Tyll. For me, she was the plastic bottle lying at the side of the medieval road in Laurus :)

Nadine wrote: "All those books you mentioned are favorites of mine too. ..."

Nobber is probably in there somewhere too, for me.

BUT getting back to the topic at hand, I intensely dislike THE ROAD by Cormac McCarthy. That may be the only winner where I say, oh, gosh, that book has no redeeming qualities at all.

lark wrote: "Nadine wrote: "All those books you mentioned are favorites of mine too. ..."

Nobber is probably in there somewhere too, for me.

BUT getting back to the topic at hand, I intensely dislike THE ROA..."

I have a list of books that I will never read, and The Road is up on top right after Lolita. I don't care how great it is, I just do not want to spend my precious free time being immersed in that particular book. Life's too short to read books that I have no interest reading.

Hmm...going through a mental list of my least favorites, topped obviously by Normal People.
There's also: Goodbye, Vitamin, Black Wave, Manhattan Beach, The Golden State

Bob wrote: "Hmm...going through a mental list of my least favorites, topped obviously by Normal People.
There's also: Goodbye, Vitamin, Black Wave, [book:Manhattan Beach|344670..."

Oh wow, two of these were 5-star reads for me, and another was a 4...It's interesting because I think we usually have pretty similar tastes.

oh man, I forgot Overthrow. it was just such an intensely precious take on Occupy Wall Street and I DNFed the hell out of it.

I gotta say though, those longlists have some real gems on em. I'm about halfway through Night Boat to Tangier, and it's spectacular!

(wow, Seven Surrenders made the longlist? I love Terra Ignota!)

Oh I forgot about We Cast a Shadow. Man I regret finishing that book.