SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

This thread is for the series read of James S. A. Corey's The Expanse starting with Leviathan Wakes.

All are welcome to join in, but please use spoiler tags and make it clear what book and chapter you're commenting on.

Leviathan Wakes >> First impressions | Final thoughts
Caliban's War >> First impressions | Final thoughts

I've read all but the last book in the series before so my comments will be a bit lacking in surprise and awe. Sorry!

Leviathan Wakes complete

A pretty solid start to the series. The highlight being the application of physics with space travel, the lanky Belters and their mish mash language. For the most part it doesn't introduce any new ideas to SF, but it's very good in making the familiar enjoyable.

Had a few issues with it though.
(view spoiler)[
Clues and breakthroughs came about too conveniently at times to keep up the pace (and the plot moving).
This crew of supposedly malfunctioning humans are pretty damn good in every situation they find themselves in. For all the talk of their inadequacies their 'flaws' were never really on show. Not that it detracted from the found family story that the series is clearly embedding at its heart.

Miller falling in love with Julie was ack! Generally a fan of exploring parasocial relationships but it was irritating here. The whole revenge for a murdered woman thing is an overused trope that wasn't made any better by all the projecting done by Miller. Eminem's Stan still reigns supreme in the stories of unhealthy parasocial relationship stakes.

And since I'm talking p. r/ships and projecting onto others...

"What if every relationship you've ever been in, is someone slowly figuring out they didn't like you as much as they hoped they would?" - The genius that is James Acaster

SPOILER FOR LATER BOOKS (BOOK 6)

(view spoiler)[
When war broke out between Earth and Mars there was a lot of chat about how easy it is to kill a planet by dropping rocks on it. Not quite a case of foreshadowing for later books in the series but merely stating an idea that's been played with in SFF for decades in books like The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress and Jack Campbell'S Lost Fleet series.
Will keep an eye out for how it plays out, but I'm currently of the mind that James Corey put so many mentions of it in the book because they hadn't made plans for the series yet. (That was done when writing the end of the second book and getting the go ahead for a 10 book series rather than a trilogy) (hide spoiler)]
(hide spoiler)]

On to Caliban's War!

Caliban's War prologue

(view spoiler)[
I already want Mei dead.
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lol!

I don't know which of my funnies you're laughing at!

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments about Miller in the first book!!!

i was laughing at Caliban prologue.

your comments about LW are spot on. From a technical standpoint I admired how they kept the plot going without too many of the seams showing from the original outline.

I'm 10% in to Caliban, and I'm annoyed the (view spoiler)[radiation zombies (hide spoiler)] seem prominent here too. but I'm enjoying the different POVs

I'm 36% in to Caliban's War (Chapter 19)

Mostly noting Avasarala's entertaining insults so far.

(view spoiler)[
Just don’t let the bobble-head talk about Venus or Eros.”

His flinch was almost subliminal. “Please, can we not refer to the secretary-general as ‘the bobble-head’?”

“Why not? He knows I do. I say it to his face, and he doesn’t mind.”
“He thinks you’re joking.”
“That’s because he’s a fucking bobble-head. Don’t let him talk about Venus.”
(hide spoiler)]

Can't say that I like the new Holden, but even Prax is (view spoiler)[borderline insufferable as he struggles to deal with his loss. There's no right way to deal with trauma, but it's definitely not enjoyable to see people deal with it by embracing violence.
(hide spoiler)]

Oh, and this from chapter 11 had me thinking about the many people I know who would be strong connoisseur for the title.

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“I’ve never met anyone else in my life who cared more about other people’s welfare, and less about their feelings,”
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Caliban's War Chapter 25

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Soren being a mole in Avasarala's office is so small time.
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Finding that whilst the plot of Caliban is tolerable it's only really the dialogue that I'm enjoying.

(view spoiler)[
“Good, because I don’t use sex as a weapon,” Bobbie said. “I use weapons as weapons.”
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I want to believe that I'm just too familiar with this story, but there are stories that I know better and would enjoy more if I picked them up this very moment.

Caliban chapter 32

I had my issues with Miller in LW but (view spoiler)[ this characterization of him seems unfair.

"That he’d turned into the man she feared he was becoming. Just another Detective Miller, dispensing frontier justice from the barrel of his gun."

Miller did plenty of talking people down and was never as trigger happy (blood thirsty?) as this iteration of Holden.
(hide spoiler)]

I still don't understand the name choice for this novel? Caliban the moon is around Uranus, no? Caliban the Shakespearean reference...I guess I could see the son of a monster and a man reference, but that's pretty freakin' highbrow for a metaphor. Leviathan, is too a bit, but I think that's more common knowledge than The Tempest.

End of book spoilers:

(view spoiler)[ Yeah, I didn't remember Miller being bloodthirsty. But it was a propulsive read and Avasarala and Arjun were 100% the real reason I read this book. I do admire that the politicking was a lot more nuanced and pit-of-viper-y than most political sicifis are, and that was only HALF the plot, which was impressive to me. I liked the Gofundme for Mei, and how quickly it turned. Fuck Nicola. Who endangers the care of her own daughter?? (hide spoiler)]

Allison wrote: "I still don't understand the name choice for this novel? Caliban the moon is around Uranus, no? Caliban the Shakespearean reference...I guess I could see the son of a monster and a man reference, b..."

To answer your rhetorical question, people who are a********. 😂
I appreciated it (I mean it still made me sad) because (view spoiler)[ many times it would be the mother doing the searching and the father being an asshole - all parents can be wonderful and all parents can be assholes and abusive. I know you all know it isn't tied to gender but that is a trope I don't like to see where because it is assumed woman are more "nurturing" its less likely they are abusive, yeah f**** right. (hide spoiler)] please excuse my *****
I also thought that about Miller (view spoiler)[ I know he killed that guy (sorry can't remember name right now) but it wasn't cause he was trigger happy, can't say if I agree or disagree with that decision, my mind can argue with itself about it, but honestly characterizing Holden so and his story line is to maybe make him more interesting? He is the character I care for the least, I am so over reluctant white savior (hide spoiler)] and Avasarala is one of my favorite characters.

I also wondered about the name and then just put it in the author's perogative/Nicol doesn't know why column lol. Allison, are you happy you continued with the series?

yeah, I'm all for dismantling benevolent sexism, but this read a bit different to me. I am! it's fun and I'm impressed with the plotting

Allison wrote: "yeah, I'm all for dismantling benevolent sexism, but this read a bit different to me. I am! it's fun and I'm impressed with the plotting"

I may have overstated a bit, I don't think they are dismantling anything. But I do love the term benevolent sexism. To be honest, as much as I love the series, I feel like they do the bare minimum. I agree with your review that "it is a a dude book for dudes who dude" but my brain wouldn't have come up with such an accurate and hilarious description! It did make me wonder, am I a dude who dudes or am I person that sometimes likes duding?

I don't know if we're meant to be intrigued by the title, Caliban's War, to go on a Google search or something about its meaning but I didn't and won't. Happy to live in ignorance of its significance.

I didn't like the thing with Nicola either and felt that we needed to see the politicking/pressure placed upon her. Can't remember if 'reverse sexism' is a thing but what Nicola did felt like something an incel would come up with about women being liars. Would have been good to know which fictional asshole to hate for that particular issue.

Why does our big bad Martian marine, Bobbi, only get beaten up in this book? I felt like she was the new Worf.

I'm a person that initially dudes and regrets it on reflection.

A thing that's still irritating me on the reread is the portrayal of Holden as a diplomat whose gone off the rails a bit. Naomi walking away from him and getting fired by Fred Johnson was meant to be what brings him back to himself but in Abaddons Gate he's still quick to shoot. mild spoiler for the rest of the series (view spoiler)[he gets into an awful lot gunfights without talking his way out of them for the duration. (hide spoiler)]His ideal of setting the truth free had nothing to do with valuing life and avoiding conflict. Narratives and reputations not matching actions shouldn't bother me, but I get the feeling that it wasn't intentional in this instance. Lots of people have the idea that Holden is dumb, naive, and an attention seeker ((view spoiler)[something highlighted in Abs gate (hide spoiler)]) but that's understandable from what they know of his broadcasts in LW. I don't see how the narrative thats irritating me could be made with any let alone many of the details of his fictional life so far.

Abaddons Gate has some of the dudiest duding in the series so far with new perspective characters, Bull, Melba, and to a lesser degree, Anna.

It's been a week or so since I finished the book so no progress updates. Will come back with (more) thoughts when I have them.

(view spoiler)[
Everyone gets a badass intro, dude. Yeah, even pastor Anna who later says she's never been in a fight starts out by tasering a piece of shit abuser in a well executed plan to help a friend. Slick, smart, and ruthless.

I liked Bulls spacing a drug dealer intro the most. It was dudeiful.
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Popping in to say I finished Caliban yesterday and have to say it has increased my enjoyment of the series even from the first one.

I'm overall surprised that such a plotted, action-y adventure has had the capacity to captivate me, but these characters - and their easy mannered duding - makes it apparently easy to be swept along.

The swiftness of the plotting and the character interactions kept reminding me of Aaron Sorkin's one-minded walk-and-talk back-and-forths, or something of Nolan's beat (and in fact, with Avasarala I kept picturing Priya from Tenet). The space marines fare seems on par with classics like Aliens and such, of course.

Shoutout also to Jefferson Mays' excellently eloquent audio narration. Which might be to thank for for the immersiveness of the experience as well.

Eager to see where the series goes.

easy mannered duding! i love that

I don't think that the things I like about this book are specific to a mindset that is attracted to women and the conquest of women. I thought the plotting is superb, I loved a lot of the character interactions, I absolutely adore the reminder that space is not earth but with a black sky instead of a blue one. The humor worked for me. The parts that made me go "huh. They do not think I am reading this book" were how the men characters valued being around attractive women, devalued women who did not make it easy to see them in a servile role. Like the fact that Holden (view spoiler)[ says he likes lying with Naomi first because her vagina apparently feels different as a belter (??????) before the personality attraction. And that he was only to get close to her because he didn't find her hot. This tall, thin, racially ambiguous woman. Wasn't attractive. Because then she gets to BE attractive for not thinking she's attractive. Again signaling that the characters can have their value stripped away if the men characters are done with them.

NOW. As I said in my review, I don't think it was quite that toxic in reality, but it's clearly there for me. That's the dude part. I can hear them saying "that's not cute" to the XO trying to save their lives. That's the dude part to me. The sort of predatory undertone even if it's not at all aggressive physically. The hallmark of good men is not that they do not beat women. It's that they see them as people rather than potential sexual partners. Do you think they do that here? (hide spoiler)]

(Clarification then to my usage of duding: I used it not in gendered terms, but in general bolstered selfassurance kind of sense).

These characters all read like people written as people to me, which is why the English language gendered idiosyncracy jumped out as the only grating distraction. (As the usual identity variance limiting factor that it is).

Yeah, I mostly agree...it only becomes apparent that something is amiss when the characters reflect on gender. If I saw each one in the wild and wasn't sharing headspace with them, I wouldn't think twice. But we are, and the comfort on the priority of sex in the minds of our heroes is just a "...hmm" moment for me. It's an inside reference, and I'm outside.

Did the characters much reflect on gender? Aside some Avasarala 'granny thoughts' I recall most of the (unnecessary) gendering was all in the pronouns.

I feel it's the precise gendered focus in language which enforces that separation (and limitations) of "he" in contrast to "her" and vice versa. Instead of any "one" in contrast to "one".

Yeah. I don't think they examine gender, but I think the heteronormative male gaze is there, which is the element of gender that my cultural and linguistics background notes more. Pronouns are about how we see ourselves, viewing someone with the lens of what sexual feelings they inspire is a bit more jarring an assumption for me

I think this is becoming belabored. It's just something that stands out to me, because this is the sort of thing I'm hyper vigilant of in all contexts. I don't think it's like...a dealbreaker. I don't want them medically castrated or anything. It's just a bit telling about who the audience is and how we're defining what acceptable gender relations are, and I notice that we have differing opinions on those elements.

Indeed the language enforces that gendered (and heteronormative) regard / gaze. I recall there were 'gazes' which ever way. Soldier to soldier, soldier to diplomat. Which is why I kept noting neutral language would come handy.

Especially for the views into headspaces, where communications according to linguistic standards ought not to be as solid a factor.

yeah, that would have been so different, if pretty woman was the same as experienced intelligence wonk in terms of descriptor!

I was thinking of duding as macho nonsense that we got a lot of in USian 80s movies. Even Avasarala's foul mouthed insults got chalked up as 'duding' in my mind.

Should probably clarify that I do like this series. Rereading it has me focusing on things that aren't the plot is all.

yeah i like it too lol. trying to find book 3. Sadly I only have access in print and I'm much slower with my eyes

Ryan wrote: "...Even Avasarala's foul mouthed insults got chalked up as 'duding' in my mind...."

Yes. They certainly did for me too.

Tempted to jump right to the third one, too, but perhaps I'll try to fit some other long awaited read(s) before that.

The ebooks certainly make deciphering the belter talk easier.

Allison wrote: "I don't think that the things I like about this book are specific to a mindset that is attracted to women and the conquest of women. I thought the plotting is superb, I loved a lot of the character..."

I do not remember this and it actually shocked me (did I read the same book?!?!) - maybe I was zoning out during the audiobook, this is making me rethink a reread because I think I like how my memory remembers it instead of actually reading that - does that make sense?

Ryan wrote: "The ebooks certainly make deciphering the belter talk easier."

I thought the narrator did a great job with belter language - what do you think of the show's actors take on it?

Ryan wrote: "The ebooks certainly make deciphering the belter talk easier."

Started with Abaddon's Gate, and while the new cast is quite less 'fascinating' from Caliban's, the occasional focus on the Belter cant is something to appreciate; I remember loving the multilingual touches in the first book, but don't recall there was much in the second.

Mays' narration is indeed excellent.

I didn't like what the show did with the belter language as much as I do with the ebook because the show doesn't have Google translate. It felt perfectly natural though as I tend to pick up one word in three whatever language someone speaks to me in, including English.

Just came across yet another instance of an old man lusting after young women in this series. Its almost as frequent as real life.

"If Jakulski had been thirty years younger, he could have seen developing intentions toward her too."