Classics and the Western Canon discussion

35 views
Stoker, Dracula > Week 3 - Dracula, Chapters 9-11

Comments Showing 1-50 of 90 (90 new)    post a comment »
« previous 1

message 1: by David (last edited Nov 17, 2021 10:27AM) (new)

David | 3259 comments CHAPTER IX
LETTER, MINA HARKER TO LUCY WESTENRA

For anyone who might still be wondering, the TOC is fair game to discuss anytime without fear of spoilers. I can't fault anyone here for the publishers printing tell-tale chapter subheadings.

In case a close reading of the Table of Contents caused you to wonder who Mina Harker is, we learn that Mina Murray does indeed marry Jonathan Harker, who somehow managed to survive, and takes his last name. Jonathan's journal is suppressed as
an outward and visible sign for us all our lives that we trusted each other; that I would never open it unless it were for his own dear sake or for the sake of some stern duty.
Is this decision a fair one? I have to think that a marriage built on such a secret past is symbolic of something but cannot quite define what that is. Just in case you feel compelled to continue inspecting the TOC, you will find Jonathan's journal is indeed continued in later chapters. I wonder what stern duty might arise. :)

LETTER, LUCY WESTENRA TO MINA HARKER
Lucy relays her wedding date to Mina as a second afterthought in a post-post-scriptum. I wonder why this news is not told sooner in the body of the letter?

DR SEWARD’S DIARY
The case for Renfield grows even more interesting when he exhibits violent outbursts and attempts to escape to the door of the chapel on the Carfax estate. These outbursts are then followed by periods of calm.
Three nights has the same thing happened—violent all day, then quiet from moonrise to sunrise.
During one escape, Seward also notes the calming effect of watching a big bat fly away to the West from Carfax seems to have on Renfield.

LUCY WESTENRA’S DIARY
Lucy is back home in Hillingham and reports bad dreams.


message 2: by David (new)

David | 3259 comments CHAPTER IX - continued
LETTER, ARTHUR HOLMWOOD TO DR SEWARD

Arthur asks Dr. Seward to examine Lucy on the sly to avoid alarming Lucy's mother. Arthur also lets Dr. Seward know he is aware of Lucy's rejection.
and though she demurred at first—I know why, old fellow—she finally consented. It will be a painful task for you, I know, old friend...
Does anyone find anything odd about the request for medical assistance, first, for not coming from Lucy herself, but second, coming from Arthur and that he writes,
I am sure that there is something preying on my dear girl’s mind.
I suggest there are legitimate and compelling reasons for this that both fit the story and that are reasons symptomatically critical of the times, i.e., what might Arthur really be looking for?

LETTER FROM DR SEWARD TO ARTHUR HOLMWOOD
Dr. Seward reports he is stumped by Lucy's condition and will ask his friend and master, Professor Abraham Van Helsing, M.D., D.PH., D.Lit, etc., etc., for aid in diagnosing and attending to Lucy. Does anyone find anything odd about Lucy telling saying to Dr. Seward,
‘Tell Arthur everything you choose. I do not care for myself, but all for him!’ So I am quite free.
Or anything odd in Dr. Seward's conclusion that
I have come to the conclusion that it must be something mental.



message 3: by David (new)

David | 3259 comments Chapter IX - continued
LETTER, ABRAHAM VAN HELSING, M.D., D.PH., D.LIT., ETC., ETC., TO DR SEWARD

Professor Abraham Van Helsing, M.D., D.PH., D.Lit, etc., etc., agrees to come and examine Lucy.

LETTER, DR SEWARD TO HON. ARTHUR HOLMWOOD
Van Helsing suspects there is something more to Lucy's illness and he needs to go back home to think.

DR SEWARD’S DIARY
We are given a strange outlier,
Just before the stroke of noon [Renfield] began to grow restless.
Noon? After that, Renfield becomes quiet and sad saying,
‘All over! all over! He has deserted me. No hope for me now unless I do it for myself!’
Later the same day, Renfield has another violent fit but becomes calm as the sun sets and even call his flies rubbish and discards them. Dr. Seward plays a science card in hypothesizing,
Can it be that there is a malign influence of the sun at periods which affects certain natures—as at times the moon does others? We shall see.
Three TELEGRAMS, SEWARD, LONDON, TO VAN HELSING, AMSTERDAM
Lucy improves for a couple of days and then there is a Terrible change for the worse.


message 4: by David (new)

David | 3259 comments CHAPTER X
LETTER, DR SEWARD TO HON. ARTHUR HOMWOOD

Another plea to suppress information to spare heart of Lucy's mother. But then, what could she do if she did know more; so why burden her with it?

DR SEWARD’S DIARY DR SEWARD’S DIARY - (continued)
More justification to suppress information. Van Helsing stresses the importance of discretion and telling all only if it is required by not one but two metaphors. First, discretion in dealing with a single madman is generalized to discretion in dealing the world, which Van Helsing interestingly calls "God's madmen" for all men are mad. Second, a good farmer doesn't ruin his crops in order to say the crop is good, a good farmer just knows it is good. Are either of these comparison interesting or compelling arguments?

Lucy is found deathly ill and receives a blood transfusion from the most socially appropriate donor, her fiancée, Arthur. The doctors discover the marks on Lucy's neck and Dr. Seward spends the night of September 8th watching her overnight. He attempts to watch her again the next night, but is so tired agrees to sleep on a sofa in a nearby room. Before going to sleep, Lucy writes she is thankful for the men's efforts to look after her and is well enough to have ear-tingling thoughts of Arthur.

DR SEWARD’S DIARY
The next morning Lucy is found deathly ill again and requires a second transfusion, this time Dr. Seward is the donor. More information is suppressed,
‘Mind, nothing must be said of this. If our young lover should turn up unexpected, as before, no word to him. It would at once frighten him and enjealous him, too. There must be none. So!’
The next day, Van Helsing fills her room with garlic flowers, including a wreath of them to wear around her neck and is so confident in their effectiveness that the doctors leave to catch up on their sleep.


message 5: by David (new)

David | 3259 comments CHAPTER XI
LUCY WESTENRA’S DIARY

Lucy writes,
Well, here I am tonight, hoping for sleep, and lying like Ophelia in the play, with ‘virgin crants and maiden strewments.’
An annotation indicates Lucy is making a reference to the garlands and flowers buried with the dead Ophelia., Shakespeare’s Hamlet (act 5, scene 1). I thought she was feeling better?

DR SEWARD’S DIARY
All the secrecy surrounding Lucy's condition comes back to haunt the conspiring doctors. Lucy's mother had unknowingly removed the garlic flowers from the room thinking her daughter would sleep better without their stuffy odor. Van Helsing briefly bemoans their situation but then doubles-down on the decision to keep things a secret,
This poor mother, all unknowing, and all for the best as she think, does such thing as lose her daughter body and soul; and we must not tell her, we must not even warn her, or she die, and then both die.
Lucy receives a third transfusion, this time from Dr. Van Helsing.

LUCY WESTENRA’S DIARY
Lucy's health improves for 4 days.

THE PALL MALL GAZETTE, 18 SEPTEMBER
A zookeeper encounters Dracula near the wolf pen. I wonder what time 2 hours after feeding time is? Later, the wolf mysteriously escapes. And we get a brief moment of comedy relief when reporter is told the reason the wolf escaped is because it wanted to get out.

DR SEWARD’S DIARY
Exhaustion, a bloody run-in with Renfield, and a delayed telegram prevent Dr. Seward from watching Lucy overnight.

MEMORANDUM LEFT BY LUCY WESTENRA
Lucy writes of a wolf, no doubt the escaped Bersicker, crashing its head through the window, her mother dying of shock, the staff members being drugged, and that The air seems full of specks, floating and circling in the draught from the window, and the lights burn blue and dim. before passing out. Recall Jonathan had noted a similar experience while at Dracula's castle,
quaint little specks floating in the rays of the moonlight. . . .I was becoming hypnotized!😵



message 6: by Tamara (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments Wow! A lot happens in these chapters.
I need clarification on a couple of points because I'm woefully ignorant of vampire lore.
Do vampires just suck the blood out of you until you have none left and you wither away and die? That seems to be what is happening to Lucy. But then I wonder about the three women vampires. How do they become vampires if not for Dracula biting them and turning them into vampires? Why didn't they wither away and die since that is what seems to be happening to Lucy?


message 7: by Tamara (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments Another question I have concerns Renfield.
Presumably, this is Dracula's first visit to England. So I don't get how Renfield recognizes him and calls him "Master" as he did in an earlier chapter. He seems to be very familiar with Dracula. He claims he's been waiting for him. How does he know him?
Maybe all this becomes clearer later in the novel, and I just have to be patient.


message 8: by Tamara (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments I'm also wondering if we are to make anything of the names.
Lucy Westenra--West, heading west, sunset, end of the day, death.
Mina Harker--Hark is to listen, i.e. the listener. I don't know if that will be significant.
Dr. Van Helsing is supposedly modeled on a Lutheran pastor named Helwing who studied vampires and werewolves 300 years ago (I googled it).


message 9: by Mike (new)

Mike Harris | 111 comments How does Van Helsing come up with the treatment that he uses?


message 10: by David (new)

David | 3259 comments Tamara wrote: "I need clarification on a couple of points because I'm woefully ignorant of vampire lore.."

Chapters 16 and 18 may provide a more nuanced explanation to these questions.

Tamara wrote: "Another question I have concerns Renfield."

The movies take great poetic license to answer this question by sometimes making Renfield the solicitor who goes to Transylvania to administer to Dracula real estate transaction ahead or instead of Harker. But in the book it simply appears that there are certain people who are sensitive or even receptive to the influence of Dracula and what he represents. There may be this extra meaning behind the line from the newspaper clipping about the storm,
The wind fell away entirely during the evening, and at midnight there was a dead calm, a sultry heat, and that prevailing intensity which, on the approach of thunder, affects persons of a sensitive nature.
While Renfield has been troubled for some time, recall Lucy resumed walking in her sleep a full two weeks before before Dracula's arrival. Mina describes Lucy as ...so sweet and sensitive that she feels influences more acutely than other people do. and I greatly fear that she is of too super-sensitive a nature to go through the world without trouble. It might also be helpful to consider Van Helsing's madmen metaphor forward and backwards for clues to Renfield's symbolic side.
All men are mad in some way or the other; and inasmuch as you deal discreetly with your madmen, so deal with God’s madmen, too—the rest of the world.
Tamara wrote: "I'm also wondering if we are to make anything of the names. Lucy Westenra"

Westenra, certainly. See the link in the background post on location. https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...


message 11: by David (new)

David | 3259 comments Mike wrote: "How does Van Helsing come up with the treatment that he uses?"

After placeing the garlic in Lucy's room he says,
‘Tonight I can sleep in peace, and sleep I want—two nights of travel, much reading in the day between, and much anxiety on the day to follow, and a night to sit up, without to wink.
He reads books and knows things.


message 12: by David (last edited Nov 17, 2021 05:55PM) (new)

David | 3259 comments Mike wrote: "How does Van Helsing come up with the treatment that he uses?"

Actually this is a good question and deserves more than the meme answer. Think of what his relative age and where he is from might have to do with the knowledge he has.


message 13: by Tamara (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments David wrote: "Westenra, certainly. See the link in the background post on location. https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/....."

Got it. Thanks.


message 14: by Borum (new)

Borum | 586 comments Tamara wrote: "I'm also wondering if we are to make anything of the names.
Lucy Westenra--West, heading west, sunset, end of the day, death.
Mina Harker--Hark is to listen, i.e. the listener. I don't know if tha..."


I've never heard of Westenra before so I looked it up and it seems to be an Irish surname derived from the Dutch van Wassenaer According to family legend on wikipedia, the name Van Wassenaer may be taken from the crescent (wassende) moon on the family coat of arms, borrowed from an Arabian banner that a member of the van Wassenaer family obtained while on a crusade. According to some family archives, Wassenaar means Wasser Herren, Sea Lords/Kings, which had been a traditional title that the invading Romans (under Caligula) had recognized while destituting the kings of Batavia. Hmm.. A crescent moon taken from the eastern legion by the west? Romans destituting the kings of Batavia (Netherlands)? Reminds us of another bloody history of the past like that of Dracula's ancestors.


message 15: by Borum (new)

Borum | 586 comments David wrote: "Mike wrote: "How does Van Helsing come up with the treatment that he uses?"

Actually this is a good questions and deserves more than the meme answer. Think of what his relative age and where he is..."


I'm also wondering if his past would be revealed more later on. I also wonder how he got to know Dr Seward as he doesn't seem to specify his specialty (holistic/supernatural medicine? witch doctor?exorcism? defense against dark magic? It's beginning to sound like Harry Potter) but Dr Seward is (I suppose) a psychiatrist. Anyway Van Helsing or Helwing? Such a cool name for a vampire hunter! (Sounds like the demons are 'singing' in hell).

Being a doctor, I was horrified to see that they don't have any blood typing or crossmatching done before the transfusion. A massive transfusion with the wrongly matched blood type might cause even more damage by breaking up the blood cells inside your own body.


message 16: by Borum (new)

Borum | 586 comments If Dr Van Helsing knows so much and suspects what's behind Lucy's illness (with the window closing/garlic/neck wound etc) I think he should have let the mother know that the garlic and closing the window is an absolutely essential part of Lucy's treatment (sure, he might have kept her clueless to why she's being treated with garlic but he didn't necessarily have to explain the details of the cause or mechanism of her treatment, right?) so that she doesn't go on her own judgement and throw out those garlic and open up the room.. Also, why not let Lucy or Seward know what's behind all this? Seward doesn't have any heart illness and he's a fellow doctor! A good lesson on what can go wrong with lack of communication, and not respecting the patient's right to know.


message 17: by Marieke (new)

Marieke | 98 comments Borum wrote: "Tamara wrote: "I'm also wondering if we are to make anything of the names.
Lucy Westenra--West, heading west, sunset, end of the day, death.
Mina Harker--Hark is to listen, i.e. the listener. I do..."


actually Wassenaar is a place in the Netherlands. I don't really recall the etymology of the place, but 'van' usually signifies 'coming from this place'.

By the way: the name of the flowershop person is Flemish. Although I'm not sure this would be on purpose bij Stoker. In the Netherlands prepositions like 'van' or 'van de' or 'van der' (all meaning from/of) are written loose, like van Helsing. In Flemish those are contracted with the surname, so Vanderpool


message 18: by Tamara (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments Marieke wrote: "actually Wassenaar is a place in the Netherlands. I don't really recall the etymology of the place, but 'van' usually signifies 'coming from this place'.

By the way: the name of the flowershop person is Flemish. Although I'm not sure this would be on purpose..."


Interesting information. Thanks, Marieke.


message 19: by David (last edited Nov 18, 2021 05:08AM) (new)

David | 3259 comments Borum wrote: "Being a doctor, I was horrified to see that they don't have any blood typing or crossmatching done before the transfusion."

I hear you, and this a note in one of my editions regarding the transfusions.
Here comes the questionable science, but Stoker has already built up Van Helsing into such a strong source of guidance and reverence that the reader is swept along with his commands. Granted, blood groups weren’t discovered until 1901, and transfusions had been performed prior to Dracula’s publication date, so most readers at the time would have gone along with it.
Just the fact they are treating her at home in secret instead of rushing her to a hospital is enough to increase my discomfort level, which is not necessarily a bad thing for a horror novel.


message 20: by Emil (last edited Nov 18, 2021 06:32AM) (new)

Emil | 255 comments David wrote: "blood groups weren’t discovered until 1901, and transfusions had been performed prior to Dracula’s publication date, so most readers at the time would have gone along with it..."

Blood transfusions have been performed, but it was science fiction back then, as a head transplant nowadays. Experiments were made using both human and animal blood, but few patients survived the procedure.
Most of us received or donated blood at least once, it's unbelievable how much medicine evolved in 130 years.


Borum wrote: "Being a doctor, I was horrified to see that they don't have any blood typing or crossmatching done before the transfusion. A massive transfusion with the wrongly matched blood type might cause even more damage by breaking up the blood cells inside your own body...."

Lucy received blood from three different people and she survived, looks like her blood type was AB+ !


message 21: by David (new)

David | 3259 comments Speaking of transfusions, this entry from Dr. Seward is rich in painful awkwardness.
No man knows till he experiences it, what it is to feel his own life-blood drawn away into the veins of the woman he loves. The Professor watched me critically. ‘That will do,’ he said. ‘Already?’ I remonstrated. ‘You took a great deal more from Art.’ To which he smiled a sad sort of smile as he replied:— ‘He is her lover, her fiancé.
What is going on here? Would it sound less awkward if Dr. Seward referred to Lucy as a woman he loves instead of the woman he loves? What does the fact that Arthur is Lucy's fiancé have to do with Van Helsing's decision to cut Dr. Seward's donation early, and what was Van Helsing's sad sort of smile all about?


message 22: by Tamara (last edited Nov 18, 2021 11:20AM) (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments I think Seward sounds really, really creepy. I don't get why it would make a difference if you're donating blood to a woman you love as opposed to donating it to someone else.

I suspect there is something sexual going on in Seward's mind with the words:

his own life-blood drawn away into the veins of the woman he loves.

And I suspect Van Helsing had the same suspicion and that's why he cut off the donation early. Dr. Seward sounds a bit sick and a bit creepy to me.


message 23: by David (new)

David | 3259 comments Is it creepy, or is it chivalrous, which can also seem creepy.


message 24: by Tamara (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments Creepy--definitely.
It's chivalrous to give blood. But I read his statement about his blood coursing through the veins of the woman he loves as having sexual overtones which make it sound creepy.
But maybe I'm being "creepy" by reading too much into it :)


message 25: by Emil (last edited Nov 18, 2021 06:21PM) (new)

Emil | 255 comments Tamara wrote: "I think Seward sounds really, really creepy. I don't get why it would make a difference if you're donating blood to a woman you love as opposed to donating it to someone else.

I suspect there is ..."


I think it's important how this blood donation is performed.

The way we normally donate blood is impersonal and is similar to the way we donate sperm. Nothing sexual about it.

The direct blood transfusion between Seward and Lucy is something completely different, is exchanging warm body fluid between two individuals. Seward is already attracted to Lucy, I think that's a kind of sex surrogate for him.

Definitely creepy but somehow understandable...


message 26: by Borum (last edited Nov 18, 2021 09:06PM) (new)

Borum | 586 comments Emil wrote: "David wrote: "blood groups weren’t discovered until 1901, and transfusions had been performed prior to Dracula’s publication date, so most readers at the time would have gone along with it..."

Blo..."


Lucky girl. AB positive consists of only 3% of the caucasian population! And so many healthy guys ready to be donors!


message 27: by Borum (last edited Nov 18, 2021 09:13PM) (new)

Borum | 586 comments Emil wrote: "Tamara wrote: "I think Seward sounds really, really creepy. I don't get why it would make a difference if you're donating blood to a woman you love as opposed to donating it to someone else.

I su..."


Yeah we normally don't directly transfuse the blood as it comes out of the donor's vein.. But then again, the fact that he's contributing to his love's resuscitation may be a thrill on its own. I've donated blood (being the ever popular O+) a dozen times and although it's impersonal and I don't know who's gonna get my blood.. it's still a satisfying experience to see my blood slowly pumping out and getting collected in the blood bag (is that weird?) for someone in need.


message 28: by Borum (last edited Nov 19, 2021 12:03AM) (new)

Borum | 586 comments Oh, and Jonathan, another 'too fragile' person to shush about anything involving his dark and mysterious secret like Lucy... If I had my fiancee missing and come back with a strange circumstance like this, I would have been crazy curious about his journal and would have certainly started questioning him as soon as he got recovered.

I feel that this secrecy will be revealed too late and lead to something bad as in the case of Lucy and Lucy's mother..


message 29: by Borum (last edited Nov 18, 2021 09:25PM) (new)

Borum | 586 comments Marieke wrote: "Borum wrote: "Tamara wrote: "I'm also wondering if we are to make anything of the names.
Lucy Westenra--West, heading west, sunset, end of the day, death.
Mina Harker--Hark is to listen, i.e. the ..."


So many dutch connection.. I wonder if there is any significance in that.


message 30: by Marieke (new)

Marieke | 98 comments Two of the three suitors have given blood. I wonder whether the American will come back...

I also took the giving/transaction of blood as something perverse and sexual in a mirrored kind of way of vampires sucking the blood out of their victims. (would vampires have to get a certain blood type too?)

Actually I found Dutch helped me understand some of the dialect a bit better (although my pronunciation of it probably doesn't make any sense)

So many secrets and why? Because the person with the secret is afraid to make a fool of himself when revealing it? Or because it could harm one's reputation somehow (here I think of Lucy)?


message 31: by Jen (new)

Jen Well-Steered (well-steered) Tamara wrote: "Wow! A lot happens in these chapters.
I need clarification on a couple of points because I'm woefully ignorant of vampire lore.
Do vampires just suck the blood out of you until you have none left a..."


In October, I read a book called Vampire: A New History. There was vampire lore before Dracula but basically the roots of all 20th and 21st century vampire mythology are in this book. So in some modern stories, a vampire chooses which of its victims to turn, and the others are just food. In others, anyone the bloodsucker bites becomes one as well.


message 32: by David (last edited Nov 19, 2021 03:43AM) (new)

David | 3259 comments I always gave blood for the cookie. Of course while you are munching on that cookie it is satisfying to know that your little donated bag of blood will go to help some totally random stranger that you will never see.

Van Helsing is a terrible doctor for not giving the donors a cookie or juice. But then again, it would be so bizarre to watch your blood flow through whatever apparatus and directly into another person while you were sitting there next to them that Van Helsing may be forgiven. The donor might lose their appetite for the cookie or just lose their cookies altogether.


message 33: by Tamara (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments Jen wrote: "In October, I read a book called Vampire: A New History. There was vampire lore before Dracula but basically the roots of all 20th and 21st century vampire mythology are in this book...

Thanks for the clarification, Jen.


message 34: by David (new)

David | 3259 comments Marieke wrote: "Two of the three suitors have given blood. I wonder whether the American will come back..."

I wonder why one the three suitors is an American...


message 35: by Chris (new)

Chris | 478 comments I also was struck by the blood transfusions and lack of any sequalae, but knew this was written prior to the discovery of blood types or development of equipment & supplies for the safe transfusion process. Transfusions were all experimental prior to that time.

It did get me to thinking about the opposite treatment for various ailments that had been ongoing for thousands of years, blood-letting, and the bad outcomes that it led to also. Dracula is the ultimate in blood letting. Could the author possibly have been making commentary on that practice as he weaves this story?

I have to admit, I really think the novel was just a sensationalist bit of pulp fiction of the times....but I'm willing to search for deeper meaning as I enjoy the tale.


message 36: by David (new)

David | 3259 comments Chris wrote: "Dracula is the ultimate in blood letting. Could the author possibly have been making commentary on that practice as he weaves this story?"

You may be on to something. There seems to be a confluence of attitudes towards blood coming together in Dracula. Going to the barber for a bloodletting to balance the humours for health,e.g., immortality, the non-medical meanings including the sexual implications attached to blood, and the emerging science and medical knowledge around blood are all invoked in Dracula by Dracula's feeding on the "life-blood" of others to sustain his own immortality.


message 37: by Sam (last edited Nov 21, 2021 07:54AM) (new)

Sam Bruskin (sambruskin) | 270 comments Borum said: So many dutch connections. I wonder if there is any significance in that.

Haha, I will continue looking for the Icelandic connection.


message 38: by Kathy (new)

Kathy (klzeepsbcglobalnet) | 525 comments Chris wrote: "I have to admit, I really think the novel was just a sensationalist bit of pulp fiction of the times....but I'm willing to search for deeper meaning as I enjoy the tale."

I think this raises an interesting question. It may be that this novel is a classic because its "folklore" caught on and influenced culture so deeply following it. Jen says "basically the roots of all 20th and 21st century vampire mythology are in this book"--imagine coming up with a story that has that kind of influence! The Harry Potter series (also mentioned earlier) may be another example of that kind of cultural influence. It has almost certainly attained classic status. But those books--and maybe this one--aren't classics in the same sense as a book that, for example, takes on deep philosophical questions or is notable for its stunning writing. I'm not experiencing Stoker's writing itself as anything special. I actually found this section to be overwritten. How many times does Lucy need to get a transfusion and then relapse?
BTW, I don't mean to suggest that one type of classic is better than another, just that they're different--and Chris may be right that "deeper meanings" aren't the draw here (blood pun intended!). There's certainly some genius involved on Stoker's part in tapping into the cultural psyche this way.


message 39: by Tamara (last edited Nov 21, 2021 08:15AM) (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments Your comment got me thinking and making a connection.

I am currently reading the recently released and riveting 700+ page The Annotated Arabian Nights: Tales from 1001 Nights. The Introduction includes the following statement:

Beyond the paraphernalia of fantasy or horror, the stories of the Arabian Nights affirmed the power of plot for novelists of all stripes.

E.M. Foster is then cited as praising Shahrazad, above all, for her ability to keep the king wondering what would happen next. The intro reinforces Foster's statement:

Even as writers such as Henry James made a claim for interiority as the foundation of the novel, the Arabian Nights represented the importance of narrative pleasure and suspense. Shahrazad emerges in fiction driven by plot and event as the ultimate symbol of the virtuosity of the storyteller.

It occurs to me the same argument can be made about Dracula. I see it as a classic for two reasons: (1) It is a great story, driven by a plot that keeps me wondering what will happen next; (2) And like the Arabian Nights, it has had an enduring impact on literature, painting, theatre, music, cinema, etc. etc. and has imprinted itself on many aspects of our culture.


message 40: by Tamara (last edited Nov 21, 2021 08:20AM) (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments I'm not sure that "deeper meanings" aren't there, as well. I'm not reading ahead in the novel so I don't know what happens next. But I'm toying with the possibility that Stoker may be making some kind of philosophical statement about reason vs. the imagination, or the limits of rational thinking, or East vs. West, or the West being depleted of its resources (Lucy's blood) because of its inability to acknowledge alternative ways of thinking and doing and being.

I know I'm rambling. I have to wait until I finish the novel to see if any of this falls into place. Maybe not. Maybe, as Kathy said, Stoker is a genius for tapping into a cultural psyche and telling a great story that keeps you guessing. And that's as far as I can take it for now.


message 41: by Sam (last edited Nov 21, 2021 08:51AM) (new)

Sam Bruskin (sambruskin) | 270 comments @Tamara and all.
H. G. Wells Time Machine published in 1895, was wildly popular and gave science fiction adventure the huge push. I'd speculate without proof that Stoker was not only familiar with it, but also took its popularity to have set up grounds for acceptance of his own work.


message 42: by Lily (new)

Lily (joy1) | 5241 comments Sam wrote: "set up grounds for acceptance of his own work ..."

Let's see -- Oscar Wilde lived 1854-1900. Stoker, 1847-1912. It is my understanding Dracula did not become particularly widely popular during Stoker's own life time. But the conversations that could be entertained were broadening?


message 43: by Sam (new)

Sam Bruskin (sambruskin) | 270 comments Too bad Stoker missed Freud's Interpretation of Dreams (1900), especially the case of "The Rat Man."


message 44: by Jen (new)

Jen Well-Steered (well-steered) Kathy wrote: "It may be that this novel is a classic because its "folklore" caught on and influenced culture so deeply following it."

I think one of the reasons a book can become a part of the canon is not because it's good - Don Quixote is nearly unreadable - but because it has a powerful influence on what comes after it. Vampires prior to Dracula were these disgusting parasites lurking around at night hoping you'd pass by so they could drink your blood. They had to be out at night because they were hideous. And you would never go to them willingly. This kind of vampire is unusual in our modern media. Dracula, on the other hand, is seductive, he takes an interest in you. He lives with three very sexy women. I'm assuming that 19 year old Lucy is pretty attractive, given her age and class, and Dracula isn't blind to that.


message 45: by Marieke (new)

Marieke | 98 comments Jen wrote: "Kathy wrote: "It may be that this novel is a classic because its "folklore" caught on and influenced culture so deeply following it."

I think one of the reasons a book can become a part of the can..."


Lucy actually is quite a few times mentioned to be beautiful and having 3 marriage proposals in one day also kind of gives a clue I guess


message 46: by Tamara (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments Jen wrote: "I think one of the reasons a book can become a part of the canon is not because it's good - Don Quixote is nearly unreadable.."

Don Quixote unreadable? I don't want to engage in a lengthy discussion of this because it is off topic, but since you brought it up, I think DQ is not only highly readable but it is one of the greatest novels that's ever been written. I try to read it once every ten years or so because each time I get something new out of it. It transcends time and place, which, in my opinion, is what makes it a classic.


message 47: by David (new)

David | 3259 comments Tamara wrote: "I'm not sure that "deeper meanings" aren't there, as well."
Ghosts and vampires are never only about ghosts and vampires.
Foster, Thomas C.. How to Read Literature Like a Professor.
Tamara wrote: "Kathy said, Stoker is a genius for tapping into a cultural psyche and telling a great story"

If cultural fears are included in the cultural psyche, there is quite a bit of truth in that too.


message 48: by Tamara (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments David wrote: "Ghosts and vampires are never only about ghosts and vampires.
Foster, Thomas C.. How to Read Literature Like a Professor.Ta..."


LOL. I guess it must be my 20 years as a professor of literature that makes me suspect the presence of "deeper meanings." It remains to be seen whether my suspicion is correct.


message 49: by Tamara (new)

Tamara Agha-Jaffar | 2306 comments I'm looking forward to seeing if all of Dracula's victims are women (assuming he does have other victims). If so, are they all attractive and vulnerable like Lucy? And if that is the case, I will doubtless meander down the path of wondering if Stoker is making a statement about the nature of women, and/or men, and/or gender relations.


message 50: by Emil (new)

Emil | 255 comments Jen wrote: "I think one of the reasons a book can become a part of the canon is not because it's good - Don Quixote is nearly unreadable....."

Stating that "Don Quixote is unreadable" here is as dangerous as sleeping in a room full of hungry vampires without having any garlic bread at dinner. Many members (including myself) will fight to the death to prove that DQ is one of the most "readable" novels ever written.

If you want something nearly unreadable from the same period, try Shakespeare's "Love's Labour's Lost", written just a few years before "Don Quixote". It has so many outdated wordplays, allusions and puns that you need 1 page of explanations for every sentence.


« previous 1
back to top