Literary Horror discussion

Please join Merl, Whitney, and myself, for our December 2021 buddy read, the anthology There is No Death, There are No Dead, edited by Jess Landry and Aaron French.

The theme of the anthology is spiritualism, which has popped up in earlier group reads. (One of our most active monthly reads (Jan 2020) was Shelley Jackson's wonderful Riddance: Or the Sybil Joines Vocational School for Ghost Speakers & Hearing-Mouth Children.) The list of contributors is packed with writers we've enjoyed and discussed in the group: Kathe Koja, Gemma Files, Helen Marshall, David Demchuk, Nadia Bulkin, Laird Barron...

The anthology is available on paper and as an e-book. All three of us are ready to start. Hope to see more participants here!

Just read the opening story by Gemma Files, and found it very entertaining. I kept being reminded of Matheson's Hell House, partly because of the backstory, but also because it shares the same feel of "superior pulp", if you know what I mean. Three stars' worth of good solid fun.

I liked the first story as well, but I've never encountered a Gemma Files' story I didn't like. I'll sum this one up as "love hurts".

I must admit I've had reservations about most of the Gemma Files I've read. But "Haunt Me" was great fun! The young narrator's snide and world-weary voice is nicely done. And the brief speculation about whether the haunted curator was a closet case is hilarious.

I really enjoyed the best stories in Helen Marshall's two collections, and am pretty happy to see new work from her. "The Happy Medium" also has a young female medium protagonist with attitude (love the voice), and the theme park setup is very funny. I like how bits of Ossian and Chris's backstories are lightly sprinkled through their tales. Not sure I'm a fan of the ending, but this was another entertaining piece.

Randolph wrote: "I cannot say enough good about the novel Experimental Film by Gemma Files."

I initially read this as "I can't say anything good about Experimental Film", and I was about to jump up yelling "fight me!"

Bill wrote: "I really enjoyed the best stories in Helen Marshall's two collections, and am pretty happy to see new work from her. "The Happy Medium" also has a young female medium protagonist with attitude (lov..."

I felt like I was just missing something with this one. The "theme parks are shitty places to work" stories have gotten a bit tiresome. and the entire set-up of this seemed ridiculous in a stupid rather than intentionally absurd way.

I really liked the next two in the book. The Marble Lily I'd read before, and forgot about the extra level of creepy at the end.

The Bone Eater was such a generous story. And also had my number one pick for "worst way to die". This is why I will never be a spelunker.

I quite enjoyed "The Happy Medium", in the same pulpy way as I had enjoyed the previous story. It was a bit sentimental for my taste, but I suspect that goes with the spiritualist territory. I wonder whether the same applies to the pulpiness too, at least on my side. I simply don't believe that individual souls or personalities continue after physical death, so any story on that premise is going to have a hoky feel for me. I know it's a prejudice on my part: how the hell should I know what happens when you die? But I can't shake it off.

Merl wrote: "I simply don't believe that individual souls or personalities continue after physical death, so any story on that premise is going to have a hoky feel for me."

I kind of feel the same. I loved Shelley Jackson's Riddance: Or the Sybil Joines Vocational School for Ghost Speakers & Hearing-Mouth Children for its extravagant flights of fancy and resolutely unreliable narrator; for me at least, spiritualism seemed just a convenient launching pad.

I just finished the Gwendolyn Kiste story. I really liked Kiste's last collection, but not so much the recent short novels. I enjoyed her story here, but wished she didn't name Rasputin right away; it immediately ties us down to certain readings of the story. I'm also not sure I'm convinced by the ending.

I was also looking forward to the David Demchuk story, since I really liked The Bone Mother (but not so much his recent novel). It's light, but nicely done and amusing. Of the other stories so far, I'm a bit disappointed that they don't do much to develop an initial idea. (Maybe if I were more sympathetic to spiritualism, I would have enjoyed them more.)

I find it odd that not believing in spiritualism affects anyone's appreciation of these stories. I don't believe in spiritualism, either. I also don't believe in ghosts, werewolves, sea monsters, doorways to other dimensions, elder gods, haunted houses, demons, etc. But, I wouldn't read much horror if I thought that mattered. It's... fiction.

Whitney wrote: "I find it odd that not believing in spiritualism affects anyone's appreciation of these stories."

I didn't mean to imply that it prevented me from enjoying the stories. It just means that I'm more likely to experience them as pulpy fun reads (which is how I also tend to experience, say, vampire stories) rather than as anything deep or thought-provoking.

(Maybe none of these stories are intended to be deep or thought-provoking in any case – I've only read the first two so far, so I can't comment on that.)

Historical fiction is not usually my bag, even within the horror genre, but I really enjoyed the Poe-esque atmosphere of "The Marble Lily", and especially its unresolved ending.

"The Bone Eater" is the only story I've disliked so far. The problem for me was the writing style. Why is it written in the second person? Who's meant to be narrating? I don't get it.

Merl wrote: "Historical fiction is not usually my bag, even within the horror genre, but I really enjoyed the Poe-esque atmosphere of "The Marble Lily", and especially its unresolved ending.

"The Bone Eater" i..."

I liked the story of the Bone Eater a lot, but I was also puzzled as to why it was written in the second person.

Whitney wrote: "I liked the story of the Bone Eater a lot, but I was also puzzled as to why it was written in the second person."

I agree it was a very nice story. I just kept banging my shins against the narrator voice, and it meant I never quite got into it as much as the story deserved.

I enjoyed the gleeful nastiness of "A Feather For Mrs Edmond". (view spoiler)[There's only one thing more fun than a vengeful spirit, and that's a vengeful child, right? (hide spoiler)]

"Meeting Katie King" did nothing for me at all.

But "The Mad Monk Of The Motor City" I found terrific, the standout of the collection so far. I actually liked the fact that she named Rasputin straight away; I thought it opened things up more than it closed them down. Otherwise the focus of the narrative would have been on figuring out "who is this scary ghost and what does he want". Instead, the focus is on (view spoiler)[the vulnerabilities of his victims, and that opens a space for some subtle political and/or sociological and/or psychological implications. (hide spoiler)]

A "me too" to your opinions on these. I also loved the gleeful nastiness of "A Feather", but I think the writer had his base idea then got lazy in the execution. What are these magic rat-killing almonds (I suspect it was a non-researched awareness that strychnine tastes like almonds). And why would that women want to contact her dead family?

"Meeting Katie King" did worse than nothing for me. This is where my disbelief in mediums does come into play. I hate that "skeptics" are almost always presented as closed-minded deniers, rather than people who give a shit about the truth. I can't remember who it was that pointed out the only place skeptics get any respect is Scooby Doo.

"Mad Monk" was my favorite of the collection so far. Perfectly said about the where Kiste put the focus.

Whitney wrote: "What are these magic rat-killing almonds (I suspect it was a non-researched awareness that strychnine tastes like almonds). And why would that women want to contact her dead family?."

Those are both excellent points, neither of which occurred to me while I was reading (duh).

Whitney wrote: "I also don't believe in ghosts, werewolves, sea monsters, doorways to other dimensions, elder gods, haunted houses, demons, etc. But, I wouldn't read much horror if I thought that mattered."

For me, the difference is I associate spiritualism with pretty specific historical beliefs and practices. Whereas the concept of a ghost is arguably more open-ended. Straightforward spiritualism/ghost/etc stories tend to get fewer stars from me; I need things to be shaken up and more open-ended.

On fiction with spiritualist themes, other than Riddance, I also enjoyed Christopher Barzak's queer YA supernatural novel Wonders of the Invisible World.

Back to this anthology. I like the social setting of "Knock Three Times", not so much the story or the writing.

I enjoyed Nadia Bulkin's collection, and also her contribution here, "True Love Waits". Like her earlier stories, it's a bit messy, clever, and charming.

The storyline of "The One Word I Can't Say" I found disappointingly slight, but I enjoyed the narrator's voice.

"Knock Three Times" is the only story so far I haven't managed to finish. Too little happened to keep my attention, and that dateline at the top of the first page is way too telegraphic.

"Susan Styles" was well executed, but not exactly full of surprises. It repeated some well-worn ghost/medium tropes without taking them anywhere new. When does a trope become a cliché?

Merl wrote: ""Susan Styles" was well executed, but not exactly full of surprises. It repeated some well-worn ghost/medium tropes without taking them anywhere new. When does a trope become a cliché?"

The copyright page says "Susan Styles" was first published in 1893! So maybe it wasn't a cliche back then (yet). I didn't care for it either (well-worn indeed), and not sure why it was included.

I appreciate the (view spoiler)[queer (hide spoiler)] twist of "The Shape of Her Soul". But I get grumpy easily about verbose writing, and this was too longwinded for me. Do I need to be told that "People loved their coffee, especially when it came with a birthday cake's worth of sugar and flavorings."? I'm also not sure I understand the point of the Ivan character.

Finally, I haven't been a fan of Laird Barron's writing that I've read. But I thought "American Remake of a Japanese Ghost Story" was quite readable. I didn't care much for the story though. But I'm guessing from the title that he's making some heavy duty references that are going over my head. Maybe you guys can point me to the sources.

Bill wrote: "The copyright page says "Susan Styles" was first published in 1893! "

Oh right, thanks, I hadn't spotted that at all! As you say, it explains the (non-)cliché but not the inclusion.

I'm just about to start the Bulkin, and looking forward to it – everything else I've read by Bulkin to date has been great. "Talitha Cumi" was my second DNF of the collection. (view spoiler)[Summoned a demon by accident? Zzzz. (hide spoiler)]

"True Love Waits" and "The Shape Of Her Soul" are both tender stories about love. "True Love Waits" was as light and sweet as a chocolate milkshake. I liked it a little less than I've liked other things by Bulkin, but that might just be because (view spoiler)[I'm not much into paranormal romance in general – the basic premise just seems silly to me (hide spoiler)].

I agree with you, Bill, about the verbosity of "The Shape Of Her Soul", and unfortunately I also saw (view spoiler)[the queer twist (hide spoiler)] coming a mile off. But I did enjoy the melancholy, and the generosity.

I'm a Barron fan, and I wolfed down "American Remake" with gusto. But the typically rich and meticulous build-up (view spoiler)[led to a surprisingly conventional "unresolved" ending (hide spoiler)]. I came away feeling disappointed with what felt like a missed opportunity.

By the way, I didn't recognise any references to specific Japanese horror movies, but I can hardly claim to have seen 'em all. The imagery (e.g. (view spoiler)[the girl with the back-flipped head (hide spoiler)]) and atmosphere in general were very evocative of films like Ring and Dark Water, I thought.

There were none I really disliked in the second half of this collection.

"The One Word I Can't Say" had nothing particularly surprising, but it elegantly expressed the ambiguity and distress in the narrator felt from dealing with a troubled family member who is intolerable in their acting out, but is also the one who was their responsibility and compatriot in the family war trenches.

I enjoyed the "Knock Three Times" turn of the century, spiritualist take on "The Little Girl Who Lived Down the Lane".

"Susan Styles" was an interesting inclusion. It seemed a fine example of a story from its time, but would have been more at home in a something like a "Penguin Collection of Spiritualist Stories". It was a tad out of place in this collection with its otherwise modern sensibilities.

"Talitha Cumi" was harder to get a handle on. I didn't see it as a simple "summoned demon by accident story". She initially thought she was summing an angel. I saw this story as putting the lie to the value of promoting good little sufferers like Saint Bernadette to girls. Talitha is only wearing the trappings of meek acceptance, inside she's burning.

I've loved the other Nadia Bulkin stories I've read, but this one was my least favorite. I agree with Bill, that it's messy and charming (or messily charming?), but also with Merl that it’s a bit silly. There was also some initial confusion in the beginning about who was who that was annoying and unnecessary.

"The Shape of her Soul"; I'm a bit of a sucker for found family. I don't know that the "twist" was really supposed to be a twist; it's telegraphed in the title, as well as with Valerie commenting "she had no illusions about how thoroughly most people misinterpreted their experiences with the spirit world, and once religious convictions got tangled in the equation, it was hard to steer them toward a compassionate approach to their ghostly residents." We can see we're in a story where prejudices are going to be challenged. I didn't see the revelation as Valerie also being trans as intended as a shocker, just another reason she was genuinely sympathetic towards the daughter.

For Bill's question about the point of Ivan, I'm guessing he's a balance to Mike. Two years ago I would have said Mike was an over-the-top stereotype, but I've since encountered too many Mikes (even in my comfortably blue city) to have any illusions in that regard anymore.

Finally, "American Remake". I've never met a Laird Barron story I didn't like. For some background, Jessica Mace is a recurring character in his stories, and this story is a sequel to Jōren Falls, which is in the anthology Come Join Us by the Fire Season 2 (audiobook is available for free and definitively worth a listen). You don't really need to have read the first story, or the Jessica Mace stories, to appreciate this one, but I'm wondering if that "unresolved" ending Merl noted indicates more sequels to come.

I'd be interested to hear Barron discussing what he meant with the title. Maybe it's something to do with not only the way artists translate or are influenced by other works, but also the way other culture's works are appropriated. The Jōren Falls spider demon is tucked away in an attic, having been removed from her cultural context and then cast aside, similar to the way American filmmakers take the scary bits from Asian horror for cheap thrills, and ignore the wider history and implications that they have in their original context. Or maybe it's simply referring to Mace using a Japanese demon to serve her own purposes; or even to Barron himself appropriating a Japanese demon.

I also totally agree that the scene with the Smokey Eye Chick was something straight out of a Japanese horror movie.

Thanks Whitney for those notes on the Barron. That helps me make more sense of my dissatisfaction – maybe the reason I wasn't satisfied was that the story's not unresolved so much as simply unfinished.

Whitney wrote: ""The Shape of her Soul"; I'm a bit of a sucker for found family. I don't know that the "twist" was really supposed to be a twist..."

I meant "twist" in that trans/queer characters are so unusual in spiritualist stories. (The Barzak novel is another exception.)
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For Bill's question about the point of Ivan, I'm guessing he's a balance to Mike.

Right, but I don't remember Ivan actually doing much that I could remember.

And thanks for the comments on the Barron story.

So this has been a fun buddy read! I know we're all busy, but I'm happy to have more of these. Please feel free to suggest titles.

Bill wrote: "I meant "twist" in that trans/queer characters are so unusual in spiritualist stories. (The Barzak novel is another exception.)."

Ah, yes. Thankfully, seeing more queer/trans characters in all kind of literature is becoming more common. Cemetery Boys, is another novel that is pretty much all about queer / trans characters and spiritualism.

True, Ivan didn't do much, except support Valerie. When I say as a balance to Mike, I was thinking of his role outside the plot, in showing that a cis het guy could also be a member of an inclusive family, (although we don't know for sure he's cis).

Hmm, the blurb for Cemetery Boys sounds very YA. I'll have to be in the right mood.

I do keep an eye on this list:
https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/4...

Bill wrote: "Hmm, the blurb for Cemetery Boys sounds very YA. I'll have to be in the right mood.

I do keep an eye on this list:
https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/4..."

It is YA.

Bill wrote: "I do keep an eye on this list:
https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/4..."

Ooh, nice list. Thanks.

Bill wrote: "So this has been a fun buddy read! I know we're all busy, but I'm happy to have more of these. Please feel free to suggest titles."

It was a really fun one. Thanks for suggesting it Bill.

Poll for January 2022 is up:
https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/2...

If you vote for a book and it wins, you are committing to participate in the discussions.

I second the fun read. It felt like a nice little informal gathering in the midst of insanity.

I have had the time and focus to read very little this month. A free short story collection seems like the perfect thing to try to squeeze into the last few days of the year.

I thought Gemma Files' story was really good. The main character's voice was the best part. She fit in a lot of small details that helped make the story feel more real like the Drs. Jay.

It took a long time forme to realize that the second story was supposed to be set in Disney Land. I think the story would have been more effective if I knew more about theme parks.

Vanessa wrote: "I have had the time and focus to read very little this month."

Hey, welcome to the end-of-year party!

Maybe you don't need to know much more about theme parks than that they suck to work in 😄. Actually, I did wonder while I was reading that one whether there was a parallel being drawn between theme park work and sex work – handler/pimp, "happy medium"/"happy hooker". But perhaps I was over-reading, I have a tendency to do that sometimes.

Last call for January 2022 monthly read poll:
https://www.goodreads.com/poll/list/1...

I've extended the deadline to Monday (tomorrow) 1/3.

Whitney wrote: "A "me too" to your opinions on these. I also loved the gleeful nastiness of "A Feather", but I think the writer had his base idea then got lazy in the execution. What are these magic rat-killing al..."

Bitter almonds do exist and are poisonous. People usually die after eating them directly off the tree after mistaking them for regular almonds. You can buy them in some places for baking purposes, but I don't know that they were ever really used as rat poison. It is still weird, because it would take quite a lot of Waldorf salad to kill an adult man.

Even though the bitter almonds didn't bother me as much, your second complaint really took me out of the story.

The second person perspective was very distracting in "The Bone Eater." It was weird for "you" to be someone so specifc. Eventually, I think it all came together and kind of worked. It thematically went with the story taking a version of the afterlife that is specific to one culture and applying it universally.

"Meeting Katie King" and "The Marble Lily" had some interesting connections to real history, but the stories themselves were just okay. The ghost and the family dynamics in "The One Word I Can't Say" were both interesting.

I really liked "The Mad Monk of the Motor City." The basic plot is one that I find very intriguing, and I think the author very thoroughly explored all the interesting aspects of it.

On a somewhat related note, I just watched the new Del Toro movie, Nightmare Alley. Solid entertainment, not as good as his early Spanish movies. Lots of spiritualist action.

Bill wrote: "On a somewhat related note, I just watched the new Del Toro movie, Nightmare Alley. Solid entertainment, not as good as his early Spanish movies. Lots of spiritualist action."

Interesting, I've been wondering whether to go see it. It sounds like a fun watch, though it could never be as good as the Tyrone Power version, surely...

Although I started this a few weeks into December, I'm a slow-reader in the sense that I like to set aside hours without any outside commitments - so I've just now finished this collection.

Its first two stories are strong, with their own charm that endeared me to the collection's potential. Mystery, of the trope-y X-Files satisfaction, and twists of modern convention that highlight an all new commercialism to spiritualism. Both of our first two protagonists are "working" a gig, but it's bound to their soul and everyone that's left behind. There's a capitalist realism angle there that I adored - hauntology at the ready.

I think having just read The Cipher last year, Koja's story here felt sufficient and accomplished but without the cutting-edge that had left me marked from her novel.

Of most note to me, S.P. Miskowski's The One Word I Can't Say, Bulkin's True Love Waits, and Barron's closing story American Remake of a Japanese Ghsot Story. These are stories that leave me inspired as much as with notions of what haunts me. I'm not sure I had ever considered the cinematic potential for (view spoiler)[ a screwball-sibling annoying you past-death. (hide spoiler)]. It's the longing, comedy, and urge to release, in combination, that will stick with me from two of those.

Barron's story reminded me of some of Stephen King's short stories, especially from what might have been in Everything's Eventual. A sarcastic voice, metatextual, with shimmerz of 'badass.' Maybe that's just how I felt in my first encounter with Jessica Mace. I definitely want to read more from these three authors.