Fantasy Buddy Reads discussion

This is a Buddy Read for Sarum: The Novel of England by Edward Rutherfurd starting January 4, 2022.

Thanks Niki!!

Page Breakdown of Sarum. 30th Anniversary Paperback ISBN: 9781787461406

OLD SARUM
Journey to Sarum - 56 pages
The Barrow - 44 pages
The Henge - 108 pages
Sorviodunum - 143 pages
Twilight - 70 pages
The Two Rivers - 69 pages
The Castle - 68 pages


NEW SARUM
The Founding - 191 pages
The Death - 88 pages
The Rose - 33 pages
A Journey From Sarum - 25 pages
New World - 94 pages
The Unrest - 93 pages
The Calm - 79 pages
Boney - 71 pages
Empire - 71 pages
The Henge II - 2 pages
The Encampment - 27 pages
The Spire - 10 pages



Reading Schedule

OLD SARUM
Journey to Sarum - 9th-10th Jan
The Barrow - 11th-12th Jan
The Henge - 13th-17th Jan
Sorviodunum - 19th-24th Jan
Twilight - 26th-28th Jan
The Two Rivers - 29th-31st Jan
The Castle - 1st-3rd Feb


NEW SARUM
The Founding - 4th-13th Feb
The Death - 15th-18th Feb
The Rose - 19th-20th Feb
A Journey From Sarum - 21st Feb
New World - 23rd-27th Feb
The Unrest - 1st-5th March
The Calm - 6th-9th March
Boney - 12th-15th March
Empire - 16th-19th March
The Henge II, The Encampment and The Spire - 20th-21st March

Ooh, I have this on my Kindle, but the sheer size of it is intimidating. A buddy read may help shift my you-know-what into gear and actually read it! 😶

Tks Niki! I'm In, I've had this on my tbr for more than ten years :P oopps!!
@KL...join us...we are going to read it in very manageable bite size pieces and we like to chat in detail so it will be an active thread with many spoilers. I'll come back a bit closer to the date and post you the schedule that Hay made for us...because she is just a sweetheart like that! Makes the book much less scary when you cut it in the salami ways.

Zaara wrote: "Tks Niki! I'm In, I've had this on my tbr for more than ten years :P oopps!!
@KL...join us...we are going to read it in very manageable bite size pieces and we like to chat in detail so it will be..."

Oooops I should have remembered to post the schedule earlier. I have commandeered my thank you message to post the schedule so that its easy to find near the beginning once we start spaming this threads with comments.

Hope you can join us KL. Zaara's right that Rutherfords books are a lot less scary in bite size pieces. We'll finalize the actual dates for the second half of the book at a later date. For now we just have a vague schedule of how long we think each chapter will take us. But our general aim is to read the whole book between Jan-March.

I'm here. I'll start this moro. Hay please chk PMs

Zaara wrote: "I'm here. I'll start this moro. Hay please chk PMs"

Replied and I'm opening Sarum right now 😘

Hi I have had this book forever on my shelf and will read along with you but probably not at the same pace as i have many challenges that I participate in.
Looking forward to this read.

Rosina wrote: "Hi I have had this book forever on my shelf and will read along with you but probably not at the same pace as i have many challenges that I participate in.
Looking forward to this read."

Glad you'll be reading along. The reading schedule is completely optional, just something that works for Zaara and I so feel free to read as fast or as slow as you want.

Zaara, I did a bit of tweaking of our schedule to take into account our late start. I've managed to get it so that we still finish Old Sarum as a whole on the same dates but there are less "rest days." But since we still only have to read 20-25 pages a day to read, most likely we'll still have days we don't have to read this if we finish a chapter early.

Journey to Sarum:

(view spoiler)[It was interesting to see a prehistoric version of England and Sarum.

I liked Hwll. Although he pushed his family harder than he needed to, it came from a good place, after what he had witnessed his need to get to higher ground was understandable.

I like Akun's loyalty to Hwll. She might not have agreed with him on a lot of things but she stuck with him. I didn't like how her treatment of Ulla changed after Tep's death though. She was so nice to her when Ulla was ill and then just started treating her like her inferior. I felt a lot of pity for Ulla. She got a rotten deal, even after Tep's death. Plus we didn't get any closure on her story after her one and only attempt to stand up for herself.

I saw Tep's attack on Akun coming a mile away. Glad he got what was coming to him in the end.

I hate that we don't get to find out what happened to the families Hwll and Akun left behind them. I guess that was inevitable though since it's not as if they could write to them or pop back for a visit 😄

Btw did you notice how careful Rutherfurd was to bring attention to how Tep's children like himself had overly long toes? I remember in London one particular family had webbed fingers (I think) so that the ancestors were always easy to spot. This is obviously Rutherfurd's trademark thing lol (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐🌠 (🌠 = half a star)

I'd like to join! I've never heard of this book but I do enjoy historically based books. It's a tome but you're reading schedule makes it manageable despite my other current reads.

Journey to Sarum: I wasn't expecting the book to start quite so far back, lol, so that was a surprise. I was taken aback and wasn't sure this would be a book for me but it didn't take long before I was wanting to see what happened (view spoiler)[to Hwll and his little family. I was especially worried about his little son.

I was sure Tep was going to try to kill Hwll to have Akun for himself. I'm surprised he never tried. I was relieved that Akun was able to fight him off.

@Hailee - I agree with you about Akun and her 180 in how she treated Ulla after Tep's death. But I guess it's hard to be completely nice to the woman who is also sleeping with your husband? lol

This made me wonder about who was the first person to start doing something. Like it mentioned that Hwll's people didn't know about stitching to hold clothes and boots together. When they met up with Tep and Ulla, though, they did know and taught Hwll and Akun. So I just wonder who was that very first person who figured it out. And all the other firsts that history didn't record. (hide spoiler)]

Veronica wrote: "I'd like to join! I've never heard of this book but I do enjoy historically based books. It's a tome but you're reading schedule makes it manageable despite my other current reads.

Journey to Saru..."

Glad to have you join us Veronica! Yeah Zaara and I did another Rutherfurd in 2020 (London) with a similar schedule and it worked really well. Our aim will be to finish it between mid-end of March.

(view spoiler)[Yes I can see why she might be feeling less charitable towards a woman after she started sleeping with her husband 😄

Yes it does make you wonder doesn't it. I expect it was the prehistoric version of Isaac Newton, something happened that gave them that light bulb moment of inspiration but it is a shame there aren't any records of these bits of history. (hide spoiler)]

She was 22 now, entering middle life, but better looking than most of the tough, weather beaten women of her age... She had most of her teeth...

Wow, this is what a fortunate looking woman of her age looked like then... Aren't we lucky we are born in this day and age!

I know! Can you imagine how hard life was back then? I would've curled up and died. I hate the cold, for one thing. lol

Choko wrote: "She was 22 now, entering middle life, but better looking than most of the tough, weather beaten women of her age... She had most of her teeth...

Wow, this is what a fortunate looking woman of her ..."

Hahahaha yes the 21st Century may have its problems but it definitely beats prehistoric times!!!!

My brother and I were trying to convince some people who are against all vaccines, what those vaccines have done for the human population. For hundreds of generations people were tethering around the billion mark. Until the 1800's, and then in less than 200 years we are 8 billion! There are other factors as well, but the main reason is the advances in science and technology... It is mind-blowing!

Journey to Sarum... This was a very strong beginning. I always have a hard time with the way life was in that period... Cruel and unforgiving to all biological creatures. Right at the edge of survival of the fittest to survival of the smartest... (view spoiler)[ I felt terrible for the little boy during the long road, and later for Ulla. I didn't really have a problem with how Akun acted with her and the others. She was the alpha female and she knew it. There had to be a hierarchy within the whole if they wanted to survive. I am surprised that Hwll even though of retaliation against Tep, since I don't think at the time the rape of a female was considered that big of a deal. I know I sound cold, but it was more likely for Akun to be punished than anything done to her assailant. I am glad he was out of the picture in a manner not leading to war within the little tribe though. (hide spoiler)]

How was London? I have that and couple of his other books in my library, so I was just wondering...

(view spoiler)[I agree in that I don't think the rape of Akun would've been seen as big deal in terms of the harm to HER. More likely it would be about the insult done to Hwll, that Tep would try to take his property (Akun). (hide spoiler)]Or it could also just be the author playing soft with how people back then would've likely reacted.

Exactly!

Hold up. I am in the second chapter and I see first big historical issue. Corn. I don't think corn was a crop in this part of the world at all for the time period. It was a Central American crop, cultivated by the indigenous people of what now we call Southern Mexico... The author must mean grain, as in wheat, barley and so on... He couldn't have made such a big mistake, right? Corn doesn't get to this part of the world until Columbus, together with tomatoes...

What years does chapter two cover? I haven't gotten there yet...though I doubt that the story would skip from Mesolithic and Neolithic man to until the days of Columbus. That's a huge historical error. I wonder how no one caught it, editors, etc.

I think it was just a mistake, because he first said they had wheat, barley and flax, but than said the soil was good enough to grow corn, so I am guessing he is talking about much later in time...

I think it is right at the end of the Neolithic age. I hate how the meeting of two different cultures and religions always seem to lead to hate and bloodshed...:(

I just finished the second chapter. It is progress, for humanity, I know, but it's also sad to see the death of a way of life... Once again at the end of the chapter he said that they grew corn... I think he is calling the grain crops corn...

Choko wrote: "I think it was just a mistake, because he first said they had wheat, barley and flax, but than said the soil was good enough to grow corn, so I am guessing he is talking about much later in time..."

Rutherfurd addresses this confusion on his website.
https://www.edwardrutherfurd.com/refe...

Interesting that it happened exactly as he said. As a British reader I saw nothing amiss with his use of the word corn knowing that he was just using it for grain in general (as like he says we use the word maize for the Columbus kind of crop you call corn) but you as an American picked up on it immediately!! Curious how our use of language is both the same yet so different.

Choko wrote: "How was London? I have that and couple of his other books in my library, so I was just wondering..."

London was a really enjoyable read. I loved that each chapter was its own story but they we followed the same families through the generations so even though there were so many new people introduced you still cared about them. I'm presuming Rutherfurd uses thst same format in all his books so if you end up liking Sarum I think you'll like all his books.

I finished The Barrows earlier this evening but I didn't have time to type up my notes. Its 3am now so I'll do it tomorrow as soon as I have time.

Hailee, hahaha! Thank you so much for that link and explanation! I kind of figured that is what was happening, but it just shocked me on first read. I had no idea that that was a general word, as we use for grain. But see, you learn something new every day:) And I knew that maze was corn, but just didn't know that Brits use it exclusively, and the other generally. Thank you;)!

That's very interesting, thanks for posting that Hailee. I also never knew that corn was a general, all inclusive word for grain in some parts of the world.

I started the third chapter a bit, before going to bed... Women have gotten such a raw deal throughout history! This is why I get mad at me. complaining about women having too much power nowadays... Too much? I still say the deck is stacked against us, just because of generations of traditions imprinted on human kind... "I can't get it up, it's her fault, sacrifice her to the gods so we can try a different one..."... Gghhhrrr!

Choko wrote: "And I knew that maze was corn, but just didn't know that Brits use it exclusively, and the other generally. Thank you;)."

I can't speak for every Brit but in my mind maize is what I use for it in a farming sense i.e its still growing in the field/being harvested. And then its sweetcorn when its on your plate in individual kernels or corn on the cob when you're eating the kernels directly off the ear. Obviously we're making it to complicated for ourselves lol.

The Barrow:

(view spoiler)[I really disliked the medicine man, even more than I disliked Tep for the previous chapter. And its sooo annoying that he never got his comeuppance. At least he didn't seem to have any children so that's the last we'll see of him and his none existent ancestors.

I have to admire both Krona and Magri, they had so much patience and foresight than I'll ever have. I'd have been like Krona's wife and going "he's annoying and I hate him so just kill him already" 🤣

I was quite surprised about Tep's ancestors. I actually quite liked Taku despite his shaky start to the chapter and I think his ancestors will be quite interesting to follow. Although I'm putting my bets on now that their cunning and greed will outweigh their morals.

Rutherfurd's version of the invention of Neolithic Barrows was really interesting, probably my favourite part of the chapter.

Are these few pages all we get on the building of Stonehenge? That's disappointing, I had imagined the next chapter was about the building of it not just using it. I guess Rutherfurd doesn't have enough evidence on the whys it was built to write about that bit. Shame. (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐⭐

I had some time this morning and read The Henge chapter. I do this to myself every time I read a historical fiction true to reality - I totally ruined my day, because I am so angry with how women are treated, but not just them, all who have no say in their lives... I spent so much of my life reading history and being mad, I should just accept it and move on, but I still can't... The author does a great job at staying as objective as possible, just giving us the story, so I am still liking the book, it is the reality he is writing about that hurts.

Hailee, I was not very happy with the medicine man either, but (view spoiler)[ not even close to my anger at this reincarnation of Krona! He was horrible! I understand his loss, but he inflicted tones more on others just because he couldn't accept he wasn't having any more children... And toward the end I was mad at his brother, the priest too, because instead of keep killing young girls and countless animals, he could have just gotten one of them pregnant, still the same bloodline, if it mattered so much to them... I am still seeing red! (hide spoiler)]

Hedge Ch. (view spoiler)[ I really liked this Ch, despite it making me so angry with the culture as a whole... I know, I know it is realistic, it just hurts my soul. I hated this Krona, and am almost mad that he still ended up having an heir.

The mason, I liked him, despite what he ended up doing. His is a story I wish the author would choose to get deeper into, with his kids and to see what happens with the Slavic mother of the new Krona baby... Oh well, at least we get to see some more of the way stone masonry was done at the time and the growth of the settlement. Did you guys notice how casually everyone was buying slaves? Human history is just ugly, isn't it... (hide spoiler)]

The Barrow:

(view spoiler)[I agree about the medicine man. I hated him. There always has to be someone (or large groups of someones) who uses their religion as a weapon. I wanted him to get his comeuppance too so disappointed that he died of natural causes.

Krona 1.0 was a good leader and chose a good successor. I found it touching that Gwilloc would sometimes go to Krona's barrow when he was faced with a problem or a hard decision. That made my heart happy. Loved the idea for the origins of the barrow mounds in general.

Hwll's song of his people's history is still being passed around thousands of years later. That was a nice touch. It's his immortality.

It was sad that the hunters were pushed out of their land and that their way of life was slowly disappearing. Rather like our Native Americans/First People here in the States. :-( (hide spoiler)]

A solid chapter!

As I was saying, progress, but the death of a culture is still very sad...

Just finished Ch. 4, Sorviodunum... I really enjoyed this chapter, but I wish we had more conclusions to some of the stories... I feel kind of left hanging after this one and I would have loved to know more... I think every chapter up to here could have been a separate novel. I love that we get the big picture, but I would love even more some more detail.

I am so sorry for going so fast, I just wanted to know what was happening... I will stop until the date we have for the beginning of the next chapter, I promise!

The Henge

Choko, I agree with you about this chapter. (view spoiler)[This Krona was nothing like his ancestor. Sacrificing NINETEEN young girls for the "crime" of not getting pregnant in three months of living a miserable existence at his side. I was mad, too, that he got his heir. He didn't deserve it.

The High Priest, Dluc, wasn't much better IMO. Sacrificing nineteen more people to dedicate Stonehenge, and a newborn baby on top of that! And of course it was going to be the baby girl that was sacrificed. I bet she wasn't even the first born...just the least desired gender. Grrr!

I felt bad for Nooma, that he never had the marriage he thought he had. Not that it was really anyone's fault. Katesh had no choice in who she married and you can't make yourself love someone. I don't agree with with what Nooma did, killing Tark, but I can understand what drove him to do it. (hide spoiler)]

It was interesting to read about building techniques for Stonehenge. It's amazing to think that men were able to do that without any of the modern machines that we have now. I always wondered how they were able to lift the heavy lintels so high to set them on top of the uprights.

It is very interesting, the details! I love that part of the book! But I have to tell you, I was in a bad mood all day after reading that chapter. I was so angry inside and there was no way I could get the anger out. Same thing happens almost every time I read anything real about this time and the crusades... The way women were treated is just unimaginable! And I think about that every time when guys start trying to convince me that they are not the men they should be, because modern day women have made them so by becoming too independent... Those are the people who either don't know or dismiss human history, through which we as a gender had very minimal control over our own lives and bodies...

Despite being so emotional, those are the books that stick with you for ever... I really appreciate the honesty of his writing...

The Henge:

(view spoiler)[Ooohhh so Stonehenge hadn't been built yet! I thought the bigger Stonehenge mentioned at the beginning of the chapter was it but that was a different one and this chapter does focus on it being built. Yay!!

It's a shame because before the death of his son's Krona's seems to have been a good man but it's so typical that something goes wrong for a man and he looks for a woman to blame.

It's the High Priest's attitude that annoys me the most actually. He knew sacrificing that for girl wouldn't solve anything but he did it anyway as he couldn't be bothered to argue over a mere farmers daughter, yet he went out of his way and braved Krona's wrath for Omric and smuggled him to Wales yet didn't even consider doing it for any of those poor nineteen girls that came after the first one.

Also I know that times were very different then and once a girl hit puberty she was eligible for marriage but every time I read a historical fiction where it talks about 12, 13, 14 etc year old girls being talked about as wives and objects of lust I can't prevent my brain from going 'ewww gross.'

I can't say I'm surprised Katesh had her head turned by Tark, to be honest it could have been any good-looking guy she came into contact with. That's the downfall of taking a child as a wife, they are too childish to yet realised that looks aren't the most important thing in a man. Can't blame her for acting childish when that's exactly what she is. And of course if a wife gets caught cheating on her husband she has to die for it while the bloke just gets fine... bloody typical.

I'm surprised Tark thought that he could get away with pretending Pia was Nooma's given Tark's and his ancestors very distinctive genetic markers. Something that must have been noted and remarked on throughout the generations. I'm just glad Nooma was wise enough to realise that it wasn't poor Pia's fault and didn't take his disillusionment of his wife out on her.

And of course the girl twin was the first born. Just as I'm sure if the god's had wanted the second born to be sacrificed it would have been the boy who was first born 🤬

Just like in the previous chapter with the invention of the Barrows it was the practical and logistical aspects of how Stonehenge was built that really interested me and made up for all the other misogynistic rubbish I had to read in the rest of the chapter. (hide spoiler)]

Individual chapter rating: ⭐⭐⭐⭐

Choko wrote: "Hedge Ch. [spoilers removed]"

I completely agree this chapter, despite its rage inducing aspects was definitely very interesting and I would have loved to see more about Nooma and his children's lives after Katesh's death.

Choko wrote: "It is very interesting, the details! I love that part of the book! But I have to tell you, I was in a bad mood all day after reading that chapter. I was so angry inside and there was no way I could get the anger out...

Despite being so emotional, those are the books that stick with you for ever... I really appreciate the honesty of his writing..."


Veronica wrote: "It was interesting to read about building techniques for Stonehenge. It's amazing to think that men were able to do that without any of the modern machines that we have now. I always wondered how they were able to lift the heavy lintels so high to set them on top of the uprights.."


100% agree with everything you both said

I know, Hailee, reading about 13-15 year old girls being married off to men in their forties/fifties is just gross. My modern day mind just can't get away from the wrongness of it, even it was the norm back then.

Same here... I don't even understand how it could be that an adult can be attracted to such a young individual, no matter the gender... But it is what it is and we can't ignore it just because we wish it was different... It is cringe worthy though, for sure...

Choko wrote: "How was London? I have that and couple of his other books in my library, so I was just wondering..."

Veronica wrote: "I'd like to join! I've never heard of this book but I do enjoy historically based books. It's a tome but you're reading schedule makes it manageable despite my other current reads."

I’m so happy to see both of you here…welcome back, Ron…where HAVE you been? How’re The 4? Hi Choko. I had been thinking of you…it’s been so long since we all read together, it’s great to start the first read of the year this way.

Choko, London was wonderful. But Sarum looks to be at a whole other level, at least from this kinda start. Which ones do you have? I already have the Forest and Russka but I shall happily buy any of the others…

Choko wrote: "I am so sorry for going so fast, I just wanted to know what was happening... I will stop until the date we have for the beginning of the next chapter, I promise!"

Eh the schedule is indicative and tweakable…we just like to sclice the bigger books into less intimidating bits since we read a lot of books together peppered thru the year we like to have a vague finish line to aim for (basically so we can set the rest of the timetable because we like to have a loose rolling plan for the next months at least)
Like Hailee said, when we read London we averaged about thirty pages a day when the book got denser in the middle bits. But when we read NOS4A2 we sped it up a bit when the book got exciting in the middle bits.
I’m sticking to the schedule in fact got a bit paranoid about lagging that I finished the Henge (mind, that is a chapter that once you begin cannot stop…which seeing your own comment and the other comments on the thread I think you all knew by now already…

Journey to Sarum
It is so nice to see this book is written by a Salisbury boy…from the start, this feels different from the way he began London, no Hay? There is an immediacy in the flavour of his writing that speaks of a long, familiar love and having actually walked in these places…

(view spoiler)[

1. Funny how so many of these futuristic dystopias and these so called wildly imaginative fantasy worlds are all actually describing our own prehistoric world?
“Far to the north it was said, the land grew colder and ever more inhospitable, until one finally reached a great wall of ice that cut across the landscape from east to west. The ice wall had no beginning and no end…”

:D GRRahemM

2. True about ALL the unrecorded firsts. What amazes me, now that we have everything you’ll ever need to know at your fingertips, is that there were times not too long ago that people staked their existence on lore that was already hundreds of years old, that they had no choice, that ppl like Hwll they were brave enough and mad enough…

3. Ha fingers and toes, he has this fascination with physiognomy (anthropologists to tend that way, is he a historian tho?) You know, Hay I bet he will bring skulls and noses in at some point prolly when he gets to different books. Yeah, Hay and did you read the preface there’s a Barnikel makes an appearance in this book too and I know they were prominent chars in London.

4. Nice observations about Hwll the parent/husband, Hay. Agree. I really liked the scene of Hwll carving the little stone figurine…that he was restless and only soothed in the making of it…crude and squat and loving and evocative, it was powerful and touching…I kinda thought when he headed out that it would be a prehistoric cave painting…but the sculpturing was unexpected. Even at a time when life itself was so harsh and the materials and outlets for creativity were so few, this discontent and this urge to express some nameless thing inside us has been there. The scene with the aurochs of course was meant to be the standout but didn’t do as much for me…

5. I actually expected there will be a rape and nothing will be said or done about it…I liked that Akun clawed back…Choko…hmmm… I’m just 4 episodes into watching ROME and my god, if you were a slave or a commoner in those times you were never safe…the shepherdesses had it worse than chattel…if you were a highborn woman you perhaps didn’t walk under death or rape the whole time but you were never allowed freedom from the consciousness that women were secondclass beings…

(hide spoiler)]

Chapter rating: 3.5 stars (I didn’t have the emoji thing on my laptop) fave scenes, the carving, the composing of the song but the rest of the chapter was largely geological setup and scenic descriptive-y walking…felt like the early minutes of Age of Empires, always my favourite.

6. In fact, HUH....its weird there wasnt anything about building a watchtower/s...weren't there watchtowers built in PreRoman times?

Re Akun and Ulla…it’s all the things y’all said…in the beginning there were no other women or friends around, then when the tribe grew…the alpha female thing + the sleeping with my husband thing + the sickness/whatever was growing inside her…

Re the corn thing, yea he said in the preface that he used corn “in its traditional English meaning” more as a normative for all cereals and not maize. I didnt even think to check the website...uhh.