Tournament of Books discussion

space to discuss TOB2022 contender Matrix by Lauren Groff

My early top contender. I wasn't swayed to love it because Fates and Furies was never a favorite of mine, but I found this story really engaging and interesting - especially Marie's visions. The community that she built was also very vital and interesting.

Obviously I have to read a bunch more, but this is my favorite so far.

I've read 5 of the shortlist so far (and working on 2 more), but so far this was my favorite too. Marie's character development was great, and I love stories with interesting old women characters in general.

I read this before the long list came out and loved it. I especially enjoyed the relationship between Marie and Elinor--two strong foils for each other from youth to old age.

I feel like I should have liked it but that it felt so arbitrary and random and that the pieces didn't feel like they worked together somehow. I can't quite put my finger on it - I usually like this author but also didn't like her other attempt at historical fiction, which was much more contemporary - Arcadia.

Just finished it. Am a little on the fence about it. There wasn't enough narrative-umph for my taste. Found it too flitting. "Now, she's 12...now she's 28...now she's 76."

I loved Matrix, but that may have partly been me identifying with the ungainly Marie. :-) Also, having encountered Elinor many times in other historical fiction, I especially enjoyed the way Geoff envisioned the relationship between the two women over the years.

I loved this book and was surprised to after really not liking Fates and Furies. The writing, characters, premise - it was all great for me.

I can see that a slower plot might be an issue for some, but that wasn't a problem for me.

I paused the audiobook this morning to play Wordle. That’s all I have to say.

Jason wrote: "I paused the audiobook this morning to play Wordle. That’s all I have to say."

Ha! I wonder how this plays for men vs. women...I'm sure many men appreciate Matrix, but it seems to have been written primarily for women.

My comment was for Wordle players. I’m loving the book so far.

Jason wrote: "My comment was for Wordle players. I’m loving the book so far."

Okay, lol, obviously I misinterpreted. I thought you were so bored with it that you dropped it for a mindless (sorry, I did like it the couple of times I played) word game.

Elizabeth wrote: "Jason wrote: "My comment was for Wordle players. I’m loving the book so far."

Okay, lol, obviously I misinterpreted. I thought you were so bored with it that you dropped it for a mindless (sorry, ..."

Today's word brought me to this thread specifically. If anyone else plays, they will likely check in here as well. I'm being vague because I don't want to spoil today's game.

I keep hearing about Wordle but haven’t tried it yet. I guess I better start, but I definitely don’t need another electronic addiction!

Re Matrix, I liked it quite a lot. A solid four stars for me. The community was fascinating, and I love how Marie pushed against so many of the conventions of the time. On the downside, the story was a bit too episodic for me, which led to more of a sketchy feel to the narrative. I wanted more depth and detail. I loved Fates and Furies, which is a book with tons of daily depth and detail.

the beauty of Wordle is that you can only play once a day and it only takes a couple of minutes.

Got it (although I wouldn’t have without the hint!)

Am I the only one who found this book beyond boring? I read 30 pages and returned it to the book store for a credit.

Jason wrote: "I paused the audiobook this morning to play Wordle. That’s all I have to say."

Very fortuitous.

When I read the description, I thought I would not like this book, but it easily turned out to be a favorite. I loved Marie, her internal conflicts, her pursuit of a feminist (though she wouldn't have called it that) utopia, the varied characters surrounding her. I just couldn't get enough. Could see this taking the Rooster.

I groaned inwardly when I saw this title on the shortlist because I haven’t cared much for Groff’s previous books but I was pleasantly surprised by this one. It was a little too episodic for my taste but I loved the characters and the way Marie built and protected her community. A solid four-star read for me.

Although I really loved this book I can’t see it taking the Rooster. Medieval historical fiction books tend to not go to far in the tournament. This really demonstrates Goff’s range as an author when you compare it to her other novels

Juliana wrote: "Just finished this, and was curious how everyone else felt about the passages about climate change? They felt so out of place to me."

I agreed about the climate change, it felt like it was just on Groff's mind when she was writing it (as it is on all of our minds) but it didn't relaly feel authentic to me...
I was not a big fan of this book to be honest. Itwas really beautifully written, but I just felt like all the characters other than Marie could have been basically interchangeable. There was also just not very much at stake with any of the conflicts and the conflicts resolve themselves and time marches on 10 years, 20 years, and it feels like none of the conflicts have any bearing on future conflicts, or change Marie's character.(view spoiler)[ Like Avice's childbearing scene was so horrible and traumatic and then is never mentioned again. Or when she and Cecily are separated, she just kind of forgets about her until she shows back up when they're in their 70s. (hide spoiler)]It just felt choppy to me. And the overall effect was that I was pretty bored, even though it seemed like this book would be right up my alley--I love historical fiction with strong women characters, I spent a month in a convent and I love really lyrical writing...but this one was just sadly not for me.

Juliana wrote: "Just finished this, and was curious how everyone else felt about the passages about climate change? They felt so out of place to me."

Everything felt out of place for me in this book. I didn't believe any of it. On the other hand, take that with a grain of salt because I really haven't liked anything else from Groff either. Her style and my tastes don't mesh, unfortunately.

Ruthiella wrote: "Juliana wrote: "Just finished this, and was curious how everyone else felt about the passages about climate change? They felt so out of place to me."

Everything felt out of place for me in this bo..."

I'm seeing more and more of this kind of historical fiction, that intentionally ignores historical constraints for the larger purposes of the book - kind of a fiction version of the theatrical breaking the fourth wall. I love it. Sometimes it's done like a small roadside bomb (almost literally in Laurus, where there's a plastic bottle at the side of the road in what otherwise appears to be a straightforward setting in the Middle Ages). In Matrix, I see it in service of a feminist atmosphere.

Is there a name for this kind of historical fiction?

I just finished and feel the same as Cat - it felt quite choppy, with major events happening quickly but everything else being so drawn out. I did like the characters and loved Marie, but I think the setting and the lack of a strong plot just made it a "it was fine" read for me.

I thought this was an almost perfect novel. The best representation of female friendships over time since Ferrante's Neapolitan Quartet. Sexy as hell and beautifully told.

Daniel wrote: "I thought this was an almost perfect novel. The best representation of female friendships over time since Ferrante's Neapolitan Quartet. Sexy as hell and beautifully told."

I see (and appreciate) your comment and raise you one - best representation of females in relationship to each other in all kinds of ways, including friendship :)

It wins the Bechdel Test lifetime achievement award!

Always so interesting to see how polarizing a book can be. I fell somewhere in between. I've always loved Groff's writing, and I did think Marie's character and relationships were really well handled, but as others have said the story itself felt disjointed and slow in places, and just didn't grab me. For such a short story, it took me forever to read. (I've never been drawn to historical fiction, though.) Will be very interesting to see how it does in the tourney.

@Nadine, Lifetime Bechdel Test Achievement Award: Yes, perfect!!!

Daniel wrote: ",,, best representation of female friendships over time since ..."
Lordy Daniel, with friends like that absolutely nobody needs enemies.

Nadine in California wrote: "It wins the Bechdel Test lifetime achievement award!"

Amen!

I finished this last week but forgot to check in here about it. I had low expectations going into it since the setting is not on my long list of settings I enjoy in books I read. I did a mix of audio and print for this, which worked, even though it was risky since my brain develops a film of Teflon for British accent narration. I managed to get through it, and ended up book-darting tons of passages in my print copy. While I occasionally lost the story (and didn't love some of the issues mentioned above like the time jumping, interchangeable characters, more time on the small things, etc.), I think the strong writing made up for a lot of that. I was pleasantly surprised and it ended up being a four-star read.

And we've been loving Wordle in my house! The only-one-per-day factor is key. I don't think we did the one on the 13th... was the word matrix that day?

Lauren wrote: "...and didn't love some of the issues mentioned above like the time jumping, interchangeable characters, more time on the small things, etc..."

It seems like a lot of readers found the characters interchangeable, but it's funny - for me all the characters seemed so distinct, and in my review I marveled about it, since there were so many nuns, living such monotonous lives :)

I thought I had no interest in reading about nuns in medieval times as I don't like religion and usually don't like historical fiction, especially not THIS historical, but, I ended up thinking it was a decent read. I agree with those who say it seemed choppy and episodic. I wish it had just focused on one stage of her life instead of covering childhood through death. I also agree with those who thought it was boring because in certain parts of it, it just dragged and got bogged down with details so it was a slow read for me and I hesitated to pick it back up sometimes. But then something exciting would happen. But then it would skip forward in time to show their mundane life without going into enough detail about the exciting thing.

I disagree with those who liked Marie- I started to hate her after what she did to the pregnant girl. Also she was very power-hungry and greedy and seemed like a narcissist in thinking she was some kind of saint or even a god/goddess herself. One theme of the book to me seemed to be that power corrupts and that religious leaders can do evil things whether they're male or female. Maybe that just comes from my bias against religion due to previous religious trauma. But I think there was a quote to that extent in the book even.

I enjoyed seeing how the abbey was like a feminist utopia for women to take care of each other communally (mostly, although when they sinned they were treated horribly by other women who were hypocrites, so, not that much different than living in a man's world, IMO) and at the comparisons between Catholicism and mysticism. I liked the detailed character study although I didn't like the character.

I give the book 3.5 stars. Did anyone else listen to the audiobook? I liked the narrator's different voices but I HATED how she read summarized dialogue as if the character was actually saying it; it drove me crazy. But at least it was entertaining whereas I think I would have been more bored reading it in book form.