Classics and the Western Canon discussion

For all you poetry lovers out there, here is a beautiful poem by the English poet, Gerard Manley Hopkins: Spring and Fall: To a Young Child.

A link to the poem:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...

A lot has been written about this short poem, but I’d like to suggest we avoid reading what others have written and just share your own thoughts and reactions. I’ll start the ball rolling.

There is so much I love about this poem. I particularly love the way Hopkins plays with words. One of my favorite lines is “Over Goldengrove unleaving.” I love the echo of “over” and “grove.” In my mind’s eye, I see a small orchard in autumn in all its golden splendor shedding its leaves, or, in a preferred phrasing, the leaves “leaving” the trees and gently floating to the ground. In just a few words, Hopkins captures a breathtaking image of the poignancy and beauty of nature in decay as it prepares for the coming winter.

Your thoughts on the poem?

My first thought was "What's with the accented syllables?"
and "Goldenglove? wanwood? leafmeal?" and I looked it up.
Probably made-up words, but I think wanwood is some kind of pale wood or a wood used to make wands and leafmeal might be related to leaves and piecemeal.. (perhaps odd bits of leaves?) I have no idea where Goldengrove is, but I'm getting a picture of a magical forest of beautiful golden autumn leaves. It seems that the child is sad to see it go, but as she grows older, becomes hardened to the coming and going of things as she knows that however sad she might be at letting beautiful things like spring and youth and innocence to go away, death and decay would yield to spring and rebirth.
Leáves like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?

I've also wondered what the 'name' signifies.
At first it's 'Now, no matter, child, the name'
as if this sorrow is universal and a person's identity is transcendental
but then at last returns by saying
It ís the blight man was born for,
It is Margaret you mourn for.
as if we still mourn for our selves being forgotten and erased along with all the changes.

This reminds me of other stories about imaginative little girls with a summer playland, real or dreamt: Alice in Wonderland, Anne of Green Gables, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe all of them outgrow their childhood play spaces and the freedom that came with them, though not without regret. Of course the cautionary tale is The Picnic at Hanging Rock where the girls so determined not to grow up escape into a permanent alternate dimension. I'm picturing Margaret as being on the cusp of adolescence, so soon she'll have to put away her childish things and she won't be able to return to Goldengrove, but she'll have the memories.

It's interesting how the poem triggers different thoughts and associations from different people.

Knowing that in poetry every word is chosen with a specific intent, and knowing that the English use the word Autumn instead of Fall, why do you think the poem is entitled Spring and Fall and not Spring and Autumn?

Is Fall related in any way to why Margaret grieves?

Tamara wrote: "the English use the word Autumn instead of Fall, why do you think the poem is entitled Spring and Fall and not Spring and Autumn? "

Words have multiple meanings in the poem. "Fall" is not only a season, it's also the "Fall" from grace, indeed from the Garden of Eden. Hopkins was both a poet and a Jesuit priest and the line "It is the blight man was born for" refers not only to the blight of aging but also to the blight of original sin. The poet's choice of Fall instead of Autumn was certainly intentional.

This poem is a great choice for an interim reading!

I love the richness and strangeness of the sounds in this poem:

Words that are used as much for the sound of the word as the meaning behind the word: unleaving, wanwood, leafmeal.

Alliteration: Goldengrove; "care for, can you"; "spare a sigh"; "worlds of wanwood"; and many others.

Two-syllable (feminine) rhymes: grieving/unleaving; "man, you"/"can you"; older/colder; "born for"/"mourn for"

Tamara wrote: "It's interesting how the poem triggers different thoughts and associations from different people.

Knowing that in poetry every word is chosen with a specific intent, and knowing that the English u..."


Great point. Not only does "fall" have multiple meanings in the poem, but so does "spring": in the line "Sorrow's springs are the same," we might think of the season spring, or (equally so) the verb "to spring."

Relevant point about the author: Gerard Manley Hopkins was known for poetry with highly idiosyncratic patterns of stressed syllables. He, and many since him, have referred to his style of versifying as "sprung verse." So there might be a sense in which "Sorrow's springs" within this poem has to do not just with the season, and not just with the act of springing forward/backward, but perhaps "sorrow's springs" is connected with the poetry itself or the impulse to create the poem.

Gary wrote: "Hopkins was both a poet and a Jesuit priest and the line "It is the blight man was born for" refers not only to the blight of aging but also to the blight of original sin...."

Great post, Gary.
I would add the "blight" man was born for also extends to human suffering and mortality.

tom wrote: "This poem is a great choice for an interim reading!

I love the richness and strangeness of the sounds in this poem:

Words that are used as much for the sound of the word as the meaning behind t..."

Another great post.
I get such a kick out of seeing someone share my enthusiasm and love for poetry.

tom wrote: "Relevant point about the author: Gerard Manley Hopkins was known for poetry with highly idiosyncratic patterns of stressed syllables. He, and many since him, have referred to his style of versifying as "sprung verse.""

Absolutely tom, the rhythm and cadence are important - he is writing in a form, not just free verse, and that guides the choice.

The poet suggests that as Margaret ages (Ah! ás the heart grows older) and her thoughts have lost their fresh qualities, she will no longer be impacted by the sight of nature in decline (By and by, nor spare a sigh) even though her vision has extended far beyond the goldengrove to encompass the decline in worlds of wanwood. But then he says, And yet you will weep and know why.

Margaret will no longer be moved by the sight of nature in decline. But she continues to weep. He also tells us she will know why she weeps, which, presumably, she didn't know before.

What message is the speaker giving to Margaret?

Borum wrote: "It ís the blight man was born for,
It is Margaret you mourn for.
as if we still mourn for our selves being forgotten and erased along with all the changes."

That's how I read it as well Borum.

Márgarét, áre you gríeving
Over Goldengrove unleaving?

Margaret grieves the leaves in the golden grove falling off the trees in autumn.

Leáves like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?

Is it possible for Margaret who is young to grieve not only for human things but also for things in the natural world?

Ah! ás the heart grows older
It will come to such sights colder
By and by, nor spare a sigh
Though worlds of wanwood leafmeal lie;

As she grows older (as the author presumably is), he forsees her no longer mourning such things in the natural world.

And yet you wíll weep and know why.

She will weep for other things, presumably human losses. She will know why she weeps then. Perhaps now as she weeps at the leaves falling, she does not know why she weeps. She just does.

Now no matter, child, the name:
Sórrow’s spríngs áre the same.

Ah, no matter, when she weeps for the fallen leaves and for human losses, she really weeps for the same thing, the same reason. The spring or source of both is the same.

Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed
What heart heard of, ghost guessed:

This is the one place in the poem that I feel uncertain, especially about "ghost guessed." But I think he's referring to her grief now - she can't explain it with her mouth or understand it with her mind. Her heart just feels it (hears it). She doesn't know why.

It ís the blight man was born for,
It is Margaret you mourn for.

It is the impermanence and ultimate decay of human life on earth that she really mourns for in both cases, even though she doesn't know it. She mourns for herself (for Margaret), for what she will have to go through one day herself as her own leaves metaphorically fall

I haven't looked anything up; this is just my impressions upon reading it. Tamara, I also love the sound and rhythm of "Goldengrove unleaving." It's a lovely poem, and a sad one.

I was shown this poem in high school and it struck me. I still have it by heart.

Greg wrote:
"Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed
What heart heard of, ghost guessed:"

This is the one place in the poem that I feel uncertain, especially about "ghost guessed." But I think he's referring to her grief now - she can't explain it with her mouth or understand it with her mind. Her heart just feels it (hears it). She doesn't know why.

I love your reading of the poem, Greg. I'm not sure I understand the lines you cite above, either. They sound beautiful, but I'm not sure what they mean. How does the heart "hear?" And what does the ghost "guess?"

Any ideas, anyone?

Roger wrote: "I was shown this poem in high school and it struck me. I still have it by heart."

That's wonderful, Roger. I've memorized it, too.

I started memorizing poems as a young girl. I still have a nasty habit of reciting words aloud when I'm walking alone. People used to look at me as if I were crazy and step aside to avoid me. Nowadays, I recite away to my heart's content with a phone in my hand so people think i'm talking to someone :)

Greg wrote: "Borum wrote: "It ís the blight man was born for,
It is Margaret you mourn for.
as if we still mourn for our selves being forgotten and erased along with all the changes."

That's how I read it as w..."

Great posts from Greg and Borum.

It's such a simple poem, and yet it encourages readers to really think through the statements being made.

I like how the two questions asked at the beginning of the poem are answered, by the rest of the poem, in the negative. She's not grieving (merely) over the falling of leaves, and the thing that (the speaker believes) she truly cares for is not the falling of leaves. And by the end, the poem also answers the question of why she grieves.

One other observation: it's very interesting as a lyric poem. Lyric poems are normally thought of as poems where a speaker addresses one or more people, and it's pretty common in lyric poems for the speaker to reveal things that are happening within the speaker themself. In this poem, the speaker reveals little about themself (except, perhaps, that the speaker is old enough to have experienced aging and the passing of seasons), but tells the listener about herself. "Mansplaining," perhaps, but it's beautifully accomplished and not without wisdom!

Tamara wrote: "Greg wrote:
"Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed
What heart heard of, ghost guessed:"

This is the one place in the poem that I feel uncertain, especially about "ghost guessed." But I think he's..."

My reading of this couplet is, "Although neither your mouth nor your mind had expressed what your heart had heard of and your spirit had perceived"

Tamara wrote: "Greg wrote:
"Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed
What heart heard of, ghost guessed:"

This is the one place in the poem that I feel uncertain, especially about "ghost guessed." But I think he's..."

Greg, I had a problem with that part of the poem, too.
But then as I kept reading it aloud again and again like Tamara did, I got some inkling of an idea.

Before those lines, I noticed that
Now no matter, child, the name:
Sórrow’s spríngs áre the same.
might mean two things.

a) Whatever might have caused the sorrow(sorrow's springs),
be it nature or human lives, it still causes sorrow.

b) Although sorrow (or loss or fall or death)
and spring (or happiness or youth or rebirth) are of two different names, they may be one (This is sort of a buddhist way of seeing the universe as seeing creation and destruction, being and nothingness as one) as they all come together to form a whole world and cannot be alone without the other

Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed
What heart heard of, ghost guessed:
I read it like Roger did.
Words and thought (or analyzing) cannot fully express what our heart and spirit perceives. Years of studying disease and death doesn't really prepare you for your first dying patient (nor the birth of your own child). The experiences of our lives can only be felt and cannot be fully expressed or analyzed. This might apply to both the loss of nature or human lives.
However, this might also apply to both the death and what lies beyond death (what the ghost only 'guesses' may be what is after death - a rebirth).


It might sound strange or heartless to say that we get used to losing human lives, but actually we do.. I still remember crying my heart out over the first patient that died in front of me. I still feel sorrow but don't cry or grieve as much because I have to get used to it if I am to keep working. People even get used to deaths of the ones they know as life has to go on. I think that is when we accept that death and life goes along with each other and when we are able to move on..

tom wrote: "Greg wrote: "Borum wrote: "It ís the blight man was born for,
It is Margaret you mourn for.
as if we still mourn for our selves being forgotten and erased along with all the changes."
"... it's pretty common in lyric poems for the speaker to reveal things that are happening within the speaker themself. In this poem, the speaker reveals little about themself (except, perhaps, that the speaker is old enough to have experienced aging and the passing of seasons), but tells the listener about herself. ..."

Isn't it sad how we never know much about ourselves until we are too old for ourselves to do anything about it and have to tell other younger ones? :-) That might be another blight man was born for.

Did anyone else notice the irony I see in the second title of the poem: "To a Young Child"? It's not for or about a child; it's addressed to a child. Yet the ideas here are not ones a child could possibly comprehend. Is Hopkins suggesting that we too are as children when it comes to the verities he writes about in the poem. Are we, like children, incapable of truly comprending them?

Gary wrote: "Did anyone else notice the irony I see in the second title of the poem: "To a Young Child"? It's not for or about a child; it's addressed to a child. The ideas here are not ones a child could possi..."
Good point, Gary. I think we may be ignorant of the fact that we are still immature until it's too late.. sigh..
It gives an image of a dying old man addressing (perhaps in hope, perhaps in vain) a future generation of immaturity, whether child or adult..

Don't laugh but this is my first time reading this poem and I had a pretty hard time trying to make out what each word and each line meant at first.. Understanding poetry doesn't come naturally to me, I'm afraid, so I'm pretty much an incapable child myself..

Roger wrote: "My reading of this couplet is, "Although neither your mouth nor your mind had expressed what your heart had heard of and your spirit had perceived"."

I hadn't thought of "ghost" as "spirit". It makes a lot of sense when you read it that way. Thanks.

Borum wrote: "Words and thought (or analyzing) cannot fully express what our heart and spirit perceives. .."

I love what you say here, Borum. I feel the same way about poetry. No matter how many times I read a great poem, I can never fully exhaust its meaning. I can experience it, but the words I use to explain the poem or define the experience I get when I read it are woefully inadequate.

Borum wrote: "Isn't it sad how we never know much about ourselves until we are too old for ourselves to do anything about it and have to tell other younger ones? :-) That might be another blight man was born for."..."

A great point.
We try to communicate what we have learned about life to the young, but they don't or won't or can't understand until they are older in much the same way we didn't or wouldn't or couldn't understand when we were young and our elders shared the benefit of their wisdom with us.

Gary wrote: "Is Hopkins suggesting that we too are as children when it comes to the verities he writes about in the poem. Are we, like children, incapable of truly comprending them?.."

I think the speaker is saying that we may experience sorrow as children just as Margaret experiences sorrow when she sees nature's decline. But he goes beyond that by imparting a message to the young child. He tells her that even though she may not be aware of it now, as she ages, she will realize that all sorrow springs from the same place--knowledge of the human condition and man's mortality.

Children are blissfully unaware of this. Their thoughts are "fresh" and innocent. But it is something they will learn as they get older and as they loose that fresh innocence.

So I don't think he suggests we are like children. I think he is saying that children, by definition, cannot begin to comprehend the truths about the human condition until they have aged. He is imparting this message to Margaret who is probably too young to understand it.

Borum wrote: "Don't laugh but this is my first time reading this poem and I had a pretty hard time trying to make out what each word and each line meant at first.. Understanding poetry doesn't come naturally to me, I'm afraid, so I'm pretty much an incapable child myself..."

I doubt very much whether anyone is laughing at you, Borum. You are doing a fantastic job of navigating the poem. And I predict you will turn in to a poetry lover before too long :)

Tamara wrote: "I started memorizing poems as a young girl. I still have a nasty habit of reciting words aloud when I'm walking alone. People used to look at me as if I were crazy and step aside to avoid me. Nowadays, I recite away to my heart's content with a phone in my hand so people think i'm talking to someone :)"

Love this Tamara and Roger! :)

So many great comments!! I was busy working earlier and couldn't answer. Now, I want to speak to several at once! :)


Roger wrote: "My reading of this couplet is, "Although neither your mouth nor your mind had expressed what your heart had heard of and your spirit had perceived"

I love this Roger!

Like Tamara, I hadn't thought of ghost as similar to spirit, but of course it makes sense. Also, Hopkins was Catholic if I remember correctly, and way back when I went to Catholic school, I recall the nuns referring to the "Holy Spirit" as the "Holy Ghost." If that terminology goes back to Hopkins' time, I suppose there's another association between those words Hopkins would have been familiar with. Your reading of those lines feels right to me.


Tamara wrote: "I think the speaker is saying that we may experience sorrow as children just as Margaret experiences sorrow when she sees nature's decline. But he goes beyond that by imparting a message to the young child. He tells her that even though she may not be aware of it now, as she ages, she will realize that all sorrow springs from the same place--knowledge of the human condition and man's mortality."

Thank you for your kind words Tamara! And this is exactly as I see the poem too - beautifully stated!


Gary wrote: "Did anyone else notice the irony I see in the second title of the poem: "To a Young Child"? It's not for or about a child; it's addressed to a child. Yet the ideas here are not ones a child could possibly comprehend."

Very true Gary, it is quite ironic. I like this!


Borum wrote: " Although sorrow (or loss or fall or death)
and spring (or happiness or youth or rebirth) are of two different names, they may be one (This is sort of a buddhist way of seeing the universe as seeing creation and destruction, being and nothingness as one) as they all come together to form a whole world and cannot be alone without the other"

This is such a beautiful way to look at it Borum! I have read some Buddhist poetry. I don't know if Hopkins would have intended the lines this way, but I do find your idea of the lines quite lovely.

I took "spring" as similar to the definition:

spring:
2. originate or arise from.
"madness and creativity could spring from the same source"

I took originating from the same source as a way of saying they arise from the same cause. "Sórrow’s spríngs áre the same." For me, it's not the sorrow that's the same but the springs that the sorrow comes from or belongs to. But I am by no means an expert. :) That is just the way I read it.

I do think that because Hopkins writes in a fairly strict form of stress and rhythm that the meaning often gets a little difficult because the words end up being used in uncommon ways to fit the rhythm. In at least half of the poems I've read by Hopkins there are at least a line or two where I feel confused or unsure of my reading.

I love what you say about your experience with patients. There is a balance between feeling and being overwhelmed by feeling. As we gain experience and go through more difficult things, it increases our empathy, but we also learn to not allow ourselves to be overwhelmed in the same way. The caring is still there, but there is more acceptance and understanding so it is not the same.


tom wrote: "It's such a simple poem, and yet it encourages readers to really think through the statements being made."

Thanks for your kind words tom. And I like what you say here. It's moving the way Hopkins talks about fundamental things with mostly straightforward words and yet conveys much depth and feeling by arranging them with such care.

And it's interesting what you say about lyric poetry as well.


What a great discussion!

Thank you for the encouragement! I was pretty unsure of myself as I'm not used to poetry, and I've learned a lot about the poetic form and Hopkins from this discussion.

Since our discussion is winding down in preparation for the next major read, this is just a quick note to thank all who participated. As Greg said @28, it was a great discussion. I genuinely loved reading all your comments and insights. Thank you for making this such a rewarding experience.