The Sword and Laser discussion

I was thinking about two of the ways to judge a book: personal taste vs. what was the author trying to achive and did they achieve it? A reader can dislike a book but still judge it to have achieved what the author intended, tho we can't ever really know author intentionality.

For myself, I really like the book esp. the identity and music parts, AND I think Aoki did a pretty good job of doing what (I see as) they set out to do, tho the SF part feels extraneous, the fantasy part less so.

T.T. wrote: "we can't ever really know author intentionality. "

This is the crux of the issue, I think. Unless an author states plainly, “This is what I was going for,” there’s no way for us to positively interpret their intent. This has been an ongoing debate since forever. I’m sure that when cavepersons sat around the fire telling stories, there would be a difference between Ook’s intended meaning and Gark’s interpretation.

This was something that always bugged me about my university literature courses and film courses, the pronouncement of “here is what the author meant”, when the reality was no one had any idea. It was akin to triumphantly holding up the needle found in the haystack, yet there was no needle. In some cases, no haystack.

That’s why I think Leesa’s interpretation is fine. It’s also why my different (but not opposite) interpretation is also fine. We’re kinda both seeing the same thing when it comes to Aoki’s intent but with different takeaways. She feels it was successful, I feel less so.

For this particular book, I suspect we’re all mostly seeing the same thing, but who knows if we’re all correct? Has anyone read an interview with Aoki detailing what she meant?

Love it! "No needle and sometimes no haystack."

Trike wrote: "T.T. wrote: "we can't ever really know author intentionality. "

This is the crux of the issue, I think. Unless an author states plainly, “This is what I was going for,” there’s no way for us to po..."

Confucius says: “Finding a black cat in a dark room is difficult, especially when the black cat isn’t there”…

A favourite quote in one of the research groups doing searches for new physics that I have worked with…

I'm reminded of something from Isaac Asimov's autobiography. One of his stories (I think it was "The Last Question") was being used in classrooms and teachers were exploring the deeper meaning of it. Asimov was surprised at this as he didn't intend any deeper or hidden meaning to the story and thought it was a little arrogant of others to say otherwise.

I think there's a few dimensions to author intent, though. Themes and meanings are hard, perhaps impossible to divine, but style lends itself to analysis.

An example... Becky Chambers' The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet is pretty apparently a slice of life SF novel with an emphasis on strong characterization. While things happen, there's not an overarching plot in the book. It relies on building interesting characters and their relationships. The events that happen aid in revealing the characters, but aren't part of an overall plot.

Thus, to criticize it for the lack of such a plot misses the point of what she's trying to do. Conversely, if her characters had been cardboard cutouts, it would be very fair to say note that a book that forgoes plot for characterization and fails on the latter isn't good. What makes the book a success for so many of us is that she does flesh out her characters brilliantly.

Any given reader can still be disappointed in the book if they are the sort that really need a plot but that's back to T.T.'s first point about personal taste.

The Breaking the Glass Slipper podcast have done a very interesting interview with Ryka Aoki in which she discusses some of what her intentions were with the book:
https://www.breakingtheglassslipper.c...

As an author, my intent is always pretty simple. I want to tell a story.

Steven Brust and I were discussing a similar topic once. 'What is the theme of your book?'
We agreed that neither of us sit down and say, " I will write a book and this will be the theme!"

Personally, I don't think about themes, or what my intent is beyond, "I thought of a cool story and characters I'd like to know and I'm going to write it down!"
Steve observed, (approx quote) "I put a book out there and wait a few weeks, and then I get email from some readers telling me what the theme of the book was."

I do not disparage erudite writers who plan a book around a theme and carefully create symbolism, etc. I am sure those writers exist and some readers like to dissect a book to find those guts and bones in it.

But sometimes, between those covers, there is just a story. And sometimes, that is enough.

Robin

Robin wrote: "Personally, I don't think about themes, or what my intent is beyond, "I thought of a cool story and characters I'd like to know and I'm going to write it down!"
Steve observed, (approx quote) "I put a book out there and wait a few weeks, and then I get email from some readers telling me what the theme of the book was.""

I read an interview with a screenwriter once upon a time who said that he just starts writing about what interests him and then at some point, maybe halfway, maybe further along, he realizes, “Oh, this story is about such-and-such,” and he makes a note about that theme, then later goes back and tweaks little things here and there to fit with the theme he uncovered during the writing. Might’ve been William Goldman, but I can’t recall for sure.

Sounds kinda like letting one’s subconscious be the guide, only seeing the mysterious intent once enough of the fog of war has lifted. Or fog of lore, as it were.

T.T. wrote: "I was thinking about two of the ways to judge a book: personal taste vs. what was the author trying to achive and did they achieve it? A reader can dislike a book but still judge it to have achieve..."

For me, I always have been drawn by books with interesting settings and characters. If anyone else listens to Reading Glasses they talk about the "Reading Pathway". For me it is setting and characters. This book had, in my opinion, a really interesting setting and had characters I felt were vivid and jumped out of the page. I do feel like the plot of the story was more complicated than necessary, but for me the other elements of the story compensated and I overall really loved the book.

Ruth wrote: "The Breaking the Glass Slipper podcast have done a very interesting interview with Ryka Aoki in which she discusses some of what her intentions were with the book:
https://www.breakingtheglassslipp..."

I've listened to the podcast. She really gets into a LOT, including referring to a certain character as evil. Worth a listen for people who want to know what she was intending.