The Sword and Laser discussion

I'm only 10 percent in and mind you, it *is* a long book, but it also seems exceptionally slow for me. I can't tell if it bothers me and maybe it will pick up, but up to now it's been a long of introduction and world building and I struggle through each chapter waiting for something to actually come together and connect the storylines so that the real story (if there is one) can finally start.

Did anyone else have problems to get into the book? And for those who are farther along: Does it pick up speed?

Doing the audiobook and while I am over getting into long books this one dragged me in pretty seamlessly. The world is a fascinating mix of gilded age capitalism with Banksian utopia..

I’m also listening, and I have found it a bit slow as well. There just seems to be way more world building and description then is necessary to support the story telling and plot. I’m about 3/4 through the book, and so far some of the different point of views come together, some have not. Some have gotten more action oriented, some have not. I’ve heard this continues all the way through the sequel.

I now think I have more of an understanding for those that complain about Stephenson, or Gibsons books. For some reason I’ve never found their worldbuilding or side track descriptions boring, although that was pushed to the edge in the Quicksilver series. But I’ve heard others mention it before. I guess this is a similar style, but the things he chooses to emphasize are just not things I’m interested in.

I think of it as like a descriptive epic fantasy with many characters. Also, a couple of different genres are mixed together, like murder mystery and alien invasion. So it may not be everyone's cup of tea. I think there's enough memorable scenes throughout the book to make it worth it.

I’m not saying the pacing is slow, but I read this over 15 years ago and I’m just now getting to the halfway mark.

John (Nevets) wrote: "the things he chooses to emphasize are just not things I’m interested in."

I think this is true of anything, really, regardless of length. If you’re into it, it doesn’t matter how long it is.

That’s why some people love LotR or 2001: A Space Odyssey while others are bored to tears by them.

That said, pacing is a real thing that has a real effect. Avengers: Endgame is a full 30 minutes longer than 2001: ASO, but it *feels* like it’s an hour shorter. But even a book or movie that’s slower paced can be riveting if you like it, in which case one is likely to call it “stately” or “deliberate”. If one *doesn’t* like it, then it gets labeled “slow” and “dull”.

The book is long and slow, and the payoffs are immense.

John (Nevets) wrote: "I’m also listening, and I have found it a bit slow as well. There just seems to be way more world building and description then is necessary to support the story telling and plot. I’m about 3/4 thr..."

First Hamilton? :)

I'm skipping this since I've read a couple of his books (Judas Unchained, The Dreaming Void) and simply don't care for the overly detailed (in both world building and subplots) style even though the writing as writing (on a paragraph and scene level) is quite good. He could shorten things by not having 83 subplots in his books but that's kind of his thing.

I don't know anyone who's read him and is in the middle though. I think you are either really drawn into the world and plots he builds or you aren't. For me, while some stories do need 1000 pages to tell, many do not and it feels like he writes so that all of his books are quite long, complicating them with subplots and asides that really aren't needed to tell the main story. Again, some love this. I don't, but I'll be really intrigued to see what the group thinks.

I enjoyed the murder mystery plot, but some of the other sections really dragged for me. I mean, a whole chapter on Justine’s flying? Borrrrring.

If someone ever adapted Justine's glider flight to a visual medium, I think it would look amazing. So in book form, it depends on how well you could visualize it, which may not be easy. As far as how the gliders relate to the plot, that doesn't connect until way at the end of the second book, Judas Unchained.

Rick wrote: "First Hamilton? :)"

Yep. I actually may be one of the few in the middle. I am enjoying many of the plots themselves, and like you said he is good at actually writing. But while some authors know the full backstory of there fictional worlds (it helps them stay consistent, and tell the stories they want to tell). Most are either self, or by others edited down to keep the story moving more.

I'm also reading The Player of Games, my second Banks after Consider Phlebas and this style reminds me a bit of that. Where a lot of the side tracks have no bearing on the main plot at all. It's like the opposite of a Chekhov's gun. And while I guess that is closer to real life, it just seems like a waste to me. I think while Stephenson puts in the extensive detail, it usually ends up being at least somewhat related to the plot, or at the very least teaches you something about the real world. I don't think I will read any more Banks, and I will see about Hamilton.

But everyone's millage may very and I can see how some would feel comfortable in this writing style.

I thought the Justine flying scene was amazing and that whole scene does become important for several storylines further along in both books.

Things that seem unimportant and people who seem like background characters will often become more important to the story later.

I had no problem with the pacing. I enjoyed the multiple POV chapters and the world building. It does all come together. Many characters and storylines will meet and overlap.

I know many of you won't get there, but the second half of Judas Unchained is a "put your seatbelt on and hang on for the ride" action thriller.

John (Nevets) wrote: "
I'm also reading The Player of Games, my second Banks..."

I LOVE that book. Most of the things that happen in it have a direct bearing on why the protagonist gets involved in what he does and his subsequent action. Too, it's a really interesting attempt at bringing the interior life of someone who's obsessive about a thing (games, of course) out to the reader.

But it also does something Hamilton does not. It tells a complete story in 416 pages. Not 1800.

If Hamilton occasionally wrote doorstoppers, whatever. But they're pretty much ALL super long and it's just a style that doesnt sit with me. But I'll read the comments of everyone with interest. Pretty much the last comment I'll make though, since I'm skipping the book.

I am getting to the bits where it all comes together.. It seems worth it.

I reread my review from whenever I read it and I noted that I found it a slow start, but was hooked by the end.

I read this years ago in a snowy village with nothing else (except an intermittent phone signal) to keep me company. Seriously- the electric kept going out and I learnt how to make tea with a candle (not recommended).

This is possibly the best way to read this book - it is SO slow to start that it would be very easy to switch to something easier to get into. If you can stick at it though, there is a point where all the strands start reaching critical mass and then BAM! You suddenly have a riveting action packed epic made all the more breathtaking by the vast amount of worldbuilding and foreshadowing you've just waded through.

William wrote: "...If you can stick at it though, there is a point where all the strands start reaching critical mass and then BAM! You suddenly have a riveting action packed epic made all the more breathtaking by the vast amount of worldbuilding and foreshadowing you've just waded through."

What William said. Plus you know, PFH actually writes quite skillfully.
I went ahead and read PS shortly after Tom announced it. I am glad I did. I recommend that everyone who plans to read it get started on PS as soon as possible.
I have now started Judas Unchained (about 10% in). (The story continues. Trust me, you won't want to stop with PS.)

I actually finished the first 2 books and started on The Dreaming Void, which is in the same world and has some of the same characters. I think I'm going to skip the "dream" chapters though which are more like fantasy.

^ There is absolutely no way to skip the "dream" chapters of any of the Dreaming Void books. They integrate with the others quite seamlessly as time goes on.

I've read them before. I'm more interested in the familiar characters and the shiny sf elements, versus the rural fantasy-like setting.

Rick wrote: "First Hamilton? :)

I'm skipping this since I've read a couple of his books (Judas Unchained, The Dreaming Void) and simply don't care for the overly detailed"

Your skipping Pandora's Star' because you've read 'Judas Unchained'? Forgive me but that makes no sense at all.

AndrewP wrote: "Your skipping Pandora's Star' because you've read 'Judas Unchained'? Forgive me but that makes no sense at all...."

A) EDIT: I was an idiot and typed Judas Unchained when I meant Reality Dysfunction. No, I don't know why...

^ I was kind of amused at the idea of Pandora's Star being a 1,000 page prologue.

Rick wrote: "AndrewP wrote: "Your skipping Pandora's Star' because you've read 'Judas Unchained'? Forgive me but that makes no sense at all...."

A) I don't need your approval. "

Andrew isn't questioning your right to choose what to read, what he, and I also find strange is that you've read the sequel to "Pandora's Star" without reading "Pandora's Star". That is unusual, particularly when Pandora's Star and Judas Unchained are really one story split into 2 books.

"Judas Unchained" wouldn't make sense without the set-up and character progression that happens in "Pandora's Star"

So far the pacing has not bothered me. I'm about 15% into the book. I've enjoyed/been intrigued by all the threads introduced so far. Looking forward to when they start connecting.

Tassie Dave wrote: "Rick wrote: "AndrewP wrote: "Your skipping Pandora's Star' because you've read 'Judas Unchained'? Forgive me but that makes no sense at all...."

A) I don't need your approval. "

Andrew isn't ques..."

/headdesk. Reality Dysfunction. Not Judas Unchained. I have no idea what I was thinking... :/

Actually I think I did originally read The Dreaming Void before Judas Unchained, just because it looked a little smaller.

Rick wrote: "/headdesk. Reality Dysfunction. Not Judas Unchained. I have no idea what I was thinking. :/."

Okay, that makes perfect sense now. You tried the first book of two different trilogies and didn't like either of them. In your position, I too would be hesitant to start another 1,000 page epic.

I started the book a couple weeks ago and got bored, so picked up a quick, light read. Thought, "oh I'll just read this one and go back to PS." Cut to today, and I've read FIVE fun short books because every time I go back to PS, I get bored. I think I'm going to have to start it over, because I don't even remember all the characters at this point. And I'm not even opposed to long books--I've read all of ASOIAF and tore through Priory of the Orange Tree. PS just isn't really grabbing me. I'll give it another go this week and see if I can get hooked.

Rick wrote: "AndrewP wrote: "Your skipping Pandora's Star' because you've read 'Judas Unchained'? Forgive me but that makes no sense at all...."

A) EDIT: I was an idiot and typed Judas Unchained when I meant Reality Disfunction..."

I bounced hard off Reality Disfunction... Didn't make it past 100 pages. Then again in most normal books a lot happens in 100 pages..

Loved The Night's Dawn trilogy, as usual the scifi parts more than the fantasy parts.

I never found this to be slow at all. I was hooked from the beginning and read the whole thing over a 2 week vacation.

I too liked the Night’s Dawn Trilogy quite a bit and the same with everything else Hamilton has written though I’d probably say I’d put PS/JU at the top followed by The Night’s Dawn. I do love all of his books quite a bit though. My favorite sci-fi author by a long shot.

I just finished last night. I skimmed a ton of this book. Pretty much completely avoided the entire Mark and Liz story, skimmed the beginning and end.
Skimmed most of the long-winded world-building parts that went on and on for dozens of pages.
The story was interesting, but needlessly long.
I'll probably post more once we get a spoiler thread going.

I agree with the skimming—I had to ffwd most of the audiobook. I thought there were some interesting concepts, but didn’t like most of the characters; I thought they were pretentious, superficial and selfish. The only character I really found remotely interesting was Paula Myo.

I felt cheated by the ending, but maybe it just wasn’t my cup of tea.

Tina wrote: "I felt cheated by the ending, but maybe it just wasn’t my cup of tea.
.."

NOTE that this is the first of a duology and if you want the full story you get another 900 pages! Lucky you!!! (/s)

I'm about 60% of the way through. I'm finding some chapters are a real slog to get through and then others where I don't want to put the book down. Overall I'm enjoying, but feel it could be condensed quite a bit.

In terms of reading the next book, I'll leave judgement till I've finished PS.

I enjoyed this audiobook enough to download Judas Unchained. It initially seemed to be a bunch of disconnected bits but the story really does grow on you.

Richard wrote: "I enjoyed this audiobook enough to download Judas Unchained. It initially seemed to be a bunch of disconnected bits but the story really does grow on you."

What Richard said.

Yeah once the s*** hits the fan the book really takes off, which probably makes Judas Unchained the better book because the story is really cookin’ at that point.

I’m at 19% now and it still seems like every chapter introduces new characters and situations, and we never revisit any of the previous characters or advance the story.

I’m finding each scene engaging enough as I read it (I liked the glider sequence!) but I’m not really feeling compelled to keep reading when I finish each chapter. I’m going to keep reading in anticipation of it all coming together in the end!

Ruth wrote: "I’m at 19% now and it still seems like every chapter introduces new characters and situations, and we never revisit any of the previous characters or advance the story.

I’m finding each scene enga..."

It does pull together (all of Chekov's arsenal is used by the end)...

I am 25 hours into Judas Unchained (you will need to rad it to get closure) and it is mostly tying together.

Early in Chapter 1, he has Freeman Dyson postulating Dyson spheres in the 21st century. I'm fairly sure 1978 is in the 20th century.

Is this an anomaly or does he have other ouchies?

So far each chapter feels like a novella, because they seemed to tell a single story, but now I've run into one that is jumping around a bit. There are a lot of characters and, to track that, I'm putting notes in my e-book that I can reference to see if a previous character is being referenced. This is proving useful, until I reached a family. I don't want to waste time noting every person there. I can't imagine listening to this brick. :-)

Well I reached 28% before deciding that I simply didn’t have the patience to continue with this any more. It’s simply not engaging me enough and I can’t be wading through another 2000 pages or so (including the sequel) to reach the promised payoff when I have plenty of other books to read.
Hey, at least I gave it a try!

Ruth wrote: "Well I reached 28% before deciding that I simply didn’t have the patience to continue with this any more. It’s simply not engaging me enough and I can’t be wading through another 2000 pages or so (..."

While I've reached some pretty darn gripping stuff (I'm at 42%), I seriously don't blame you for dropping it.

I gave up on Hamilton's Great North Road at around page 500 despite people telling me it turns into an absolute classic, I decided that no payoff was worth such a slog.

I've got to say Pandora's Star really is hypercharged rocket fuel once it finally gets going, but on this reread there were points when I nearly gave up even knowing how good it gets.

I'm loving it now though, and I know I've only just reached Level 1 payoff - it ramps up way more as it carries on.

*poke head out from under my rock*

I had to re-read my review of this book but it seems it was very slow to me as well until the halfway mark then it picked up immensely.

Dara wrote: "*poke head out from under my rock*"

DARA SIGHTING!

Mark wrote: "Dara wrote: "*poke head out from under my rock*"

DARA SIGHTING!

"

I know! It's so weird!

For those bouncing off PFH doorstopers there are some alternatives: his first series, Greg Mandel Trilogy starting with Mindstar Rising, are sf crime novels, much less spacey and epic; and his recent collaboration with Gareth L. Powell Light Chaser is a mere 173 pages paperback. I liked all of them, the final Greg Mandel novel being the weakest one, but still enjoyable.

The recent Salvation trilogy has books only half the size.