The Obscure Reading Group discussion

Welcome to our fourth week, where we’ll discuss Books 10 and 11.

I am getting even further behind, but look forward to getting to these sections, where we hear more about the schoolboy Kolya and about Lise, who I hope to better understand.

Any changes of opinion on the work as a whole as we read on?

I am about to begin Book 10, which is probably for the best, as I'll be able to react in real-time.

Last week's reading, taking matters to the court of "law" as it did, was a definite uptick in action and interest.

The last few hundred pages were definitely the best of the book, but boy did Dostoyevsky make us work through some things to get there. Ironically when it became more like Crime and Punishment, I started liking it more.

Ah, these are very encouraging comments for me right about now. :-)

The opening to Book 10, focusing on the Schoolchildren, is a brief and refreshing break from the mania of all things Karamazov.

One thing that struck me, translation-wise, is one I'd never considered. I'm reading the Avsey translation (Oxford World's Classics edition), and in the chapter "The Schoolboy" you get this:

"And have you noticed, Smurov, that in midwinter, when it gets down to fifteen or even eighteen, it doesn't seem as cold as it does now for example at the beginning of winter, when it's suddenly and unexpectedly frosty like today, when it's twelve degrees below and without snow. That means people aren't used to it yet. With people it's all a question of what they're used to, even in the matter of the state and politics. Habit is the prime mover."

Aside from the nice observations about people, weather, and habits, I noted, as reading, that I just assumed the translator's numbers were Fahrenheit (and I think they are). But then I said, "Wait a minute. Doesn't the cheese (USA) stand alone when it comes to Fahrenheit? Isn't the whole world on Celsius, and doesn't this translation come out of the UK?"

Odd, really. Americans are such dolts when it comes to Celsius (I only know ZERO is freezing, the equivalent of 32 degrees F) and the metric system (we once tried to switch during the Jimmy Carter Administration, but it was an abject failure).

Hard to believe the Avsey translation has different numbers in the European translation -- but I suppose that's possible!

It's Ivan again with his nightmare of the devil (Book 11 Chapter 9) that focuses the themes on the nature of good and evil, doubt and faith. If we believe in these things, are we just suffering from brain fever or mental illness? Is the devil a figment of our imagination? Here the devil is insidious how he worms his way into Ivan's head, using all sorts of rhetorical tricks to get him to believe him and his arguments and in him himself, so much as to throw a real item at him, which the devil had hoped for from the start.

Again echoing Dostoevsky's theory that the devil is created in our image, Ivan outright tells the visitor that "you are the incarnation of myself, but only of one side of me... of my thoughts and feelings, but only the nastiest and stupidest of them." Later, the devil himself says "It's reactionary to believe in God in our days, but I am the devil, so I may be believed in." He goes on to argue that without him, life would be only one long hosannah and so life wouldn't be possible. Again the echo of the earlier discussion that only through suffering can we know what pleasure or exaltation. He gets Ivan so riled up that he finally shouts "Is there a God or not?" The devil responds, "My dear fellow, upon my word, I don't know."

Back and forth, God or the Devil, can we believe in either, neither, or both? These are central to Ivan who needs to believe in something with his intellect. The devil taunts him, "Knowing that you are inclined to believe in me, I administered some disbelief..." then telling him next he planted a seed of faith. The devil comforting a suicide and taking his final confession, the priest who forgives the girl who confesses having sex to comfort a man then sets a rendezvous with her himself. There are a lot of jokes but it's all deadly serious to Ivan and therefore Dostoevsky. In the end, Ivan covers his ears (as if that could keep you from hearing a voice in your head), then throws the glass (at an apparition that isn't there?), and his angelic brother calls, thus banishing the visitor. In the end, the arguments disappear, and our own inherent or innate nature is left with which to carry on our lives.

The intellect only goes so far for our author. Our goodness is what matters.

There are a couple of asides in Ivan's conversation with the devil that are incredibly contemporary:

- What's the good of believing against your will? Proofs are no help to believing, especially material proofs.

- There are two sorts of truths for me- one, their truth, yonder, which I know nothing about so far, and the other my own.

Even 150 years ago, apparently people believed whatever they chose, regardless of evidence. I guess the internet has only made it more apparent.

Yes, the whole devil thing was reminiscent of The Master and Margarita, isn't it?

One thing I agreed with that also holds (and ever shall) is his Fallen-ness's remark about the "inveterate stupidity of the human race." So similar to Mark Twain's famous comment on this losing race, now running on a front page near U (kraine).

I finally finished Book 10, and found the conversation between Alyosha and the 13 year old Kolya very interesting. It seems this book is using Ilyusha’s illness to play out some of the details and theories mentioned in earlier books.

Ilyusha is a child senselessly suffering, as in Ivan’s theories. Smerdyakov, the cat-torturer, passes along tips on how to torture dogs. And most interesting to me, Kolya is pushed by Alyosha to question for himself the theories he has read, and let them be tested as he gathers his own life experiences.

“When you are older, you’ll understand for yourself the influence of age on convictions.”

All of this after Book 9, where we see through Dimitri’s “torments” how elusive the truth can be.

Kathleen wrote: "Ilyusha is a child senselessly suffering ..."

Except remember, it's Ivan brother who has caused Ilyusha's suffering with his disrespect to his father and Snegirov's inability to defend his honor against the humiliation. Ilyusha is innocent, but not suffering in the same way Ivan was arguing against. But you're right, Ilyusha's illness and what comes later (I have finished the book and can't remember where the arc of his story ends) is used by the author to illustrate the importance of kindness and love, which FMD is all about.

I am behind but am good with that. I am taking the book in small chunks at a time as well as reading other things.

Rather than viewing each week's thread as a spoiler for what I haven't read yet, I look on the discussion as helping me better understand what I am reading and it makes it all that more interesting.

For my part, and even though I get the sense there are less of us reading the selection than previous outings, the discussion has been more lively and more about the nuts and bolts of the book. So, no matter where I end up at the end as far as rating the book, it will all be worthwhile because our discussion has really allowed me to appreciate what I am reading.

Cherisa wrote: "Kathleen wrote: "Ilyusha is a child senselessly suffering ..."

Except remember, it's Ivan brother who has caused Ilyusha's suffering with his disrespect to his father and Snegirov's inability to d..."

Good point, Cherisa, and I agree that our author is all about kindness and love.

Another timeless truth from the last chapter of this section, when Ivan is relaying his conversation with the devil to Alyosha:
"I should be awfully glad to think that it was he and not I.” Perhaps one of the reasons for the devil's longstanding popularity ...