The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

I'm addressing these comments to Tempest:
So, Geoffrey, after one month of your honeymoon you discovered your wife is not the angel you thought she was, even though she practically told you upfront that she wasn't a nice girl. That's the big catastrophe? Grow up, Geoffrey, and make the best of a bad situation. And by the way, your double standard about men being allowed to have a good time before marriage, if you know what I mean, and girls have to stay home and wait for Mr. Right? Seriously?

On the other hand, the fact that your wife throws herself at the feet of Lucio and begs him to take her, and you witness the whole thing-that's not so good!

Tempest is so immature, self centred and clueless-as he puts it himself, he's full of "arrogant
egotism". Is there any hope for this fellow?

Mavis and Lucio have a memorable encounter in the wood, and Mavis comes out a clear winner. What do you think of Lucio's reaction?

How does Lucio respond to Sybil's proposal? Can things get any worse for Tempest?

Please share any of your thoughts and ideas that you had while reading.

I had no idea that this section was going to end on a cliff-hanger!

This section finds us firmly ensconced in melodrama territory. All that kneeling and pleading!

Tempest’s ideas didn’t annoy me so much just because they reflected such widespread views, even among many people today. It’s the old pedestal trap—women are supposed to be honored to be idolized while being punished for not living up to an impossible and artificial standard imposed on them from the outside, and their body is always supposed to be controlled by men though the women are held responsible for what men do with it. Sibyl treats this standard with the scorn it deserves, though that’s not to say either one of them is an appealing character in their privileged boredom and cynicism.

Lucio has said that Satan (can’t I just say “he” at this point?) won’t be allowed back into heaven till everyone on earth has turned away from temptation, so his response to Mavis seems to be that at least there’s one less person he has to worry about! And despite his disclaimers he seems to want very much to return to heaven.

As for Tempest, he is already well into the process of being chastened: he’s lost the fame he craved, lost his will to create, lost faith in his wife. He still has to lose his fortune and his affectionate trust in Lucio. I do worry how valuable the moral lesson is, though, when he can only regret vice when vice becomes a misery for him, not while it’s still a pleasure.

And Tempest is also getting stout!

I find the characters to be fairly one-dimensional, lacking depth. I kind of feel sorry for Tempest and Sybil, since they really shouldn't have married each other-but not really a lot. Sybil didn't have any guidance, since we learn that her mother was a lot worse than she was. And Tempest's best friend is the Tempter.

Tempest was forewarned, then he gets all sanctimonious about his marriage and wife. Really unbelievable. He has no idea what is going on; what other people might feel. I am sorry, but he lost all my sympathy (whatever was left). And it’s likely only to go downhill from here.
This could have been a really good story, but the author is not up to it. I am reading a story by ETA Hoffmann right now (Die Elixiere des Teufels), it’s so much better written. It might have been a success then, but it’s not great literature.

I read the Hoffmann story last year, and I agree that there is no comparison- the Hoffmann story is so much better.

Tempest is a fool not to know better. Sybil gave him fair warning, but he was blind! I laughed to myself when reading about his complaints of Sybil not being what he thought she would be.

The dramatic scene in chapter 30 wasn't unexpected. We knew Lucio was Sybil's love interest. There were enough hints about it; only Tempest failed to understand.

Tempest's self-indulgence has blunted any intellectual ability he had-he's grown more dislikable as the book progresses, but I'm still hoping he's not completely lost.

This section was slow, it kept saying we would have a dramatic scene. I assumed Tempest would find Sybil in the arms of Lucio. Why shouldn't he enjoy her? But maybe his unearthly side means he doesn't really appreciate physical pleasures, he never gets fat or drunk, despite urging others on.

I was surprised that a woman writer would include all the "blame the woman" stuff, although maybe she was trying to show it was ridiculous and wrong. It's hard to imagine what Tempest thought marriage would be like. He made little effort to get to know Sybil, and after all, she could say, "The devil made me do it!" At some time, she has made the bargain with him, even if not explicitly as Tempest did.

Thanks, Rosemarie, for pointing out the Tempest-Tempted name resemblance. The name Sibyl was for a seer who could tell the future, which she did in warning Tempest. Mavis' last name Clare is related to clear/light/innocent (clear of sin or cleared of wrongdoing). She is the angel to Lucio's devil, he even says he remembers her from his past (in Heaven). I do like that Mavis isn't just a boring prude who prays all day. She enjoys life and people without the need to impress anyone or respond to her critics, except with forgiveness. Tempest wishes he had married her, but I think she would have been too smart to accept him. She is the rare person happy with her lot, which is why Lucio can't tempt her. She also, like the dogs, senses him for what he is.

Lucio is becoming a more interesting character in those moments when he experiences the sorrows of exile, loneliness, and disgust with the human race. I think his begging Mavis to pray for him was sincere, he just made fun of it afterwards with Tempest to protect his image. Plus there seems to be something about his curse/exile that forbids him from revealing his whole story to ordinary humans.

I agree that Lucio was sincere in asking Mavis to pray for him.

What interested me in the first chapter of this section (which does sound as if it is being narrated in the present, not looking back from a later time) is that Tempest already calls Sibyl "a beautiful feminine animal with the soul of a libertine" and "wanton" despite the fact that, as they both acknowledge, she ...wear(s) no jewels but yours, and crave(s) no gifts beyond those you are generous to bestow-. So she has not yet been unfaithful nor flirtatious with other men-so where is the wantonness and libertinage? He knows there is something wrong with their relationship-Sibyl has been clear that it is transactional-but other than her enjoyment of prurient novels has there been any indication that she herself is wanton?

I agree that I am now coming to feel sorry for Lucio/Satan-he does want to get back to heaven, and yet humanity is so base that so far Mavis Clare has been his one "win" in his task-it is clear that when he is trying to tempt her, is dislikes having to do it and hopes that she will (as she does) resist.

The other thing I struggle with is Lucio's intentions towards Tempest-Tempest is just another human who has succumbed to temptation and not shown any redeeming features, so why does Lucio spend so much time and effort on him?

I’m guessing that Lucio can be in many places at once, so he stays with each of his victims as long as necessary to corrupt them absolutely. (I have no real textual evidence for that assumption.) Tempest’s behavior is unredeemed but he still has those moments of self-loathing and germs of conscience. But Lucio is simultaneously ambivalent about his tasks, so he periodically gives Tempest (and presumably others, including Sibyl) the chance to make a different choice. It’s an interesting portrait of the Evil One.

Abigail wrote: "It’s an interesting portrait of the Evil One..."

Yes, and to my mind a surprisingly sympathetic one (or at least compared with so many of his "victims").

Well, he is a somewhat poignant figure, and who is more to blame for his activities—the fallen angel or the omnipotent god who assigned that role to him?

I too find Lucio to be portrayed in an interesting manner during this section. Yes, slightly 'poignant' and almost 'sympathetic' with his ambivalence about corrupting others. He's not one-dimensional and is more complex than the humans, Sybil and Tempest, he is influencing. I enjoyed Lucio recounting his past experiences with historical political figures

Tempest acts like the clueless narrator that some authors, especially in horror, use to both flatter and entice the readers to get more involved in the protagonist's story. They intend to get the reader involved enough that they almost ache to warn the protagonist of upcoming evil events. It fails here because modern day readers don't have much empathy or sympathy with Tempest. Reading the comments above, there seems much more sympathy for Lucio than Tempest.

Lucio is doing what he was assigned to do, and so far Mavis is the only human that we know of who hasn't fallen under his spell.
The other characters are empty inside-just waiting.

What is the author trying to say about Lucio when he is so disparaging about all women except Mavis? Could it be that Mavis is not really a woman, just an angel in the form of a woman? According to Lucio all the rest of the women on Earth are vile and not worth bothering with. He seems to enjoy humiliating Sybil but he is almost as grovelling as Tempest in his desire to get into Mavis’ good books.

As for the melodrama - yawwwwn - did it really need five chapters for Tempest to explain how his wife offered herself to Lucio? Hasn’t she been doing that all they way through the book?

I am amazed how Sybil has learned to love/lust wantonly, disgusting Tempest so thoroughly, just by reading a few saucy books. On their wedding tour her words to Tempest were…..
‘ You have paid dearly for me I know;—but remember I as yet wear no jewels but yours, and crave no gifts beyond those you are generous enough to bestow,—and my dutiful desire is to give you as much full value as I can for your money.”

Even though this was a lie because she was probably wearing Lucio’s emeralds as she spoke, he ought to have known what was coming.

At least I can understand why Tempest can’t see anything bad in Lucio. All Lucio does is act as a mirror to his victim’s desires, and they see their own reflection, not the devil. I agree with Brian about having little sympathy with Tempest, but I also have become irritated by Lucio’s tedious reflections, excuses and nonchalant explanations for the decadence of society. Maybe it is because he says the same thing over and over again using different words and phrases.

I am not sure I need to read on after hearing Mavis Clare say….
‘ “But I assure you, Mr Tempest, the best possession I have, and one which I value a great deal more even than my literary success, is my absolute independence, and I would not have it thought, even erroneously, that I am anxious to mix with the crowd of sycophants and time-servers who are only too ready to take advantage of the Prince’s good-nature.”’

Mavis could be talking about the Prince of Wales or the Prince of Darkness, her meaning is probably the same.

This book needs some serious editing-the build up is too long for such a minor event-so far the author hasn't revealed anything we haven't figured out just by reading the title.

Rosemarie wrote: "This book needs some serious editing-the build up is too long for such a minor event"

My sentiments exactly, Rosemarie. I've pressed on, and find myself losing interest. Too long-winded!

True, but that’s considered a feature, not a bug, in much pulp fiction. Those who read it tend to prefer a fat book because they read for escape and a fat book allows them to escape longer. The problem for pulp fiction is that it’s written to reflect the values and issues of its time so it doesn’t speak to different times and mores.

Abigail, I certainly agree with this. For todays tastes this is way too long and it does not hold the interest that much.

That makes a lot of sense, Abigail-especially since they had no radio,TV or movies to escape into.

I wouldn't restrict the fat book preference to just pulp fiction readers as many Victorian era novels are overly lengthy because they served as their TV, often serialized like a weekly TV series. I always think of the authors of serious fiction in New Grub Street having to stretch a plot worth 2 volumes to fill the 3 volume length requested by publishers.
While I initially thought the more pulpy novels like this might be less wordy, thinking of penny dreadfuls, Abigail is probably right that the tendency is more prevalent in the pulp fiction world. Such books served more like TV's soap operas rather than a weekly series and, like soap operas, try to stretch a single plot aspect to its breaking point - and even beyond.
This book's plot may have been stretched out pretty far but hasn't quite broken yet - at least for me. But as I expect any Victorian era novel to be stretched out, I was prepared to tolerate it.

Interesting to see what the other best sellers were at the time of this book’s publication. This list is from the Victorian Web.

Thomas Hardy's - Jude The Obscure (serialised 1894-5)
Joseph Conrad's - Almayer's Folly
Margaret Oliphant's - Two Strangers
Rhoda Broughton's - Scylla or Charybdis?
H. G. Wells' - The Wonderful Visit
H. G. Wells's - The Time Machine
George Gissing's - Eve's Ransom/Sleeping Fires

This and further lists from other years here - https://victorianweb.org/authors/dick...

Thanks, Trev. I have seen Rhoda Broughton's name associated with Marie Correlli as more popular rather than high-brow writers of the time. In fact, I mentioned both authors in my review of the novel Angel. It is interesting that the other best-selling authors are all writers that I, and I presume most in this group, have read.

Interesting list! Really covers a wide range of tastes.

The reading public at that time still left out a lot of poor and working-class people. Even if they had some basic education, they wouldn't have the time or money for leisure reading.

I'm still enjoying the book, but yes, it kind of drags in parts. And I agree that Tempest had a rather outsized reaction to his wife reading naughty books. I suppose that might have seemed more significant at the time of publication than it does to us now.

I think it’s more that he discovers how crude her mind is, and he resents the books because they encourage that crudity. It seems weird to us because we haven’t been so thoroughly indoctrinated with the “angel of the hearth” meme—basically promoted by men who wanted to own women and be the only ones to defile them.

Abigail-you have reached the heart of the matter-Tempest thinks he owns Sybil, heart and mind. I won't add soul because he doesn't believe in souls.

I look forward to the discussion of the next section and learning what Sibyl thinks about it!

Tempest's attitude and way of thinking are so corrupted after coming into his millions. I can't remember him being so base before.

Tempest does not handle his wealth well. He focusses only on spending money on things and to impress people. He was not the same man, but even then we don't know about his personality at the beginning of the book.

Just finished this section. While I’m still up for reading it to the end, it is dragging in parts. It’s getting too preachy for my tastes with little in the way of surprises.

The author is so over the top and boring at the same time, I find.

Deborah wrote: "It’s getting too preachy for my tastes with little in the way of surprises."

Completely agree with you, Deborah. The beginning was interesting and engaging, but by half way, the writing turns preachy and the story uninteresting.

Deborah wrote: "Just finished this section. While I’m still up for reading it to the end, it is dragging in parts. It’s getting too preachy for my tastes with little in the way of surprises."

Yes, the preachiness is really becoming too much.