The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

We meet Sybil and her family in Chapter 5. What is your impression of them? What concerns and issues are raised that Dorian neglected to mention? We even get a surprise revelation about Sybil's father.

In Chapter 6, we are back with Basil and Henry discussing Dorian, complete with new aphorisms. When Dorian enters, there is a stark contrast between Henry's cynicism and Dorian's romantic descriptions of Sibyl and their love. Yet there are some omens of possible worms in the Edenic apple.

Indeed, when they all go to the theater in Chapter 7, Sibyl has suddenly lost her talent. (there is also the disturbing - to us - insult to the "fat Jew manager".) Sibyl explains that now that she knows real love, she can't be bothered with the fake kind found in acting. Is this a blessing or a curse? Did Dorian ever really love her - or know her? He declares that she has killed his love. When he goes home he sees a new expression on the face of the painting. This is the first time that was remarked upon. How does this affect Dorian?

Dorian makes a new resolution based on the painting but then gets a shock in Chapter 8. While Henry remarks on how Sibyl's death is probably for the best, since the marriage would have been a mistake, Dorian acknowledges that he doesn't feel the grief he should. He thanks Henry for his explanations and says "no one has ever understood me as you do." Is Henry/Harry the Devil figure here? (I just remembered that Old Harry is one of the many names for Satan!)

Or is Dorian actually responsible thanks to his selfish wish to stay young? He thinks of praying for the enchantment to reverse but justifies his decision to hide the portrait. Indeed he takes pleasure from the idea of the painting showing a secret side of himself. Is there a message for the reader in all this?

When, in Chapter 9, Basil is horrified at the changes in Dorian, Dorian says, "I owe a great deal to Harry." When Basil wants to see the portrait, Dorian refuses, even though Basil eventually admits that he didn't want to exhibit the painting because it would betray how much he loves Dorian. (Well, maybe this edition doesn't quite say that, but that is the gist.) Dorian also refuses to sit for any more paintings, which hurts Basil. It seems to me that there is a parallel between Sybil being more perfect when acting than in person and Dorian being more perfect in appearance and manner in the painting than in real life.

Please share any comments on this week's section.

Just before the three men are heading to the theatre to see Sybil perform, Basil is left to travel alone. (End of Ch 6)

The painter was silent and preoccupied. There was a gloom over him. He could not bear this marriage, and yet it seemed to him to be better than many other things that might have happened...A strange sense of loss came over him. He felt that Dorian Gray would never again be to him all that he had been in the past. Life had come between them...When the cab drew up to the theatre, it seemed to him that he had grown years older.

This seems a strange presentiment of what Dorian will go through with Sybil, and how it will change him as well. As well, a foreshadowing of Basil's later confession of how much he loves Dorian. Also, in saying that this was a better outcome than other things, is he suggesting that Dorian marrying, though a loss to him, would be a preservation of Dorian's innate goodness and sweetness, that he would fall in love with and plan to marry an actress?

I found Dorian's transformation somewhat unbelievable, and his cruelty to Sybil completely out of (his current) character. How little you can know of love, if you say it mars your art! Without your art, you are nothing. I would have made you famous, splendid, magnificent. The world would have worshipped you, and you would have borne my name. What are you now? A third-rate actress with a pretty face." Clearly, Dorian had fallen in love with the various roles that Sybil played. Are there some echoes of his relationship with the painter in these lines as well?

These lines that Dorian says to Basil somewhat later are also chilling:

“I know you are surprised at my talking to you like this. You have not realized how I have developed. I was a schoolboy when you knew me. I am a man now. I have new passions, new thoughts, new ideas. I am different, but you must not like me less. I am changed, but you must always be my friend. Of course, I am very fond of Harry. But I know that you are better than he is. You are not stronger—you are too much afraid of life—but you are better. And how happy we used to be together! Don’t leave me, Basil, and don’t quarrel with me. I am what I am. There is nothing more to be said.”

After reading The Sorrows of Satan; or, The Strange Experience of One Geoffrey Tempest, Millionaire, I am wondering if the curse of the painting and the influence of the Devil is already affecting Dorian. The first time he comes up with any kind of obstacle, he handles it in a cruel and selfish way totally against all that great love he professed. If that was how shallow his love was, Basil was right that the marriage was doomed. Harry says he wanted Dorian to marry, then get bored with Sybil and fall for someone else.

As Robin states, Dorian is exceedingly cruel and selfish at his first obstacle. We have to wonder why. Is it because this is his inate nature that just didn't have achance to show yet? It doesn't seem that way since such inate cruelty and coldness wouold have had some event to spark Dorian to show it in his first 20 or so years. (How old is he?)
Presumably, its either a conscious choice through the influence of Lord Henry or an unconscious one caused by an unseen ethereal devil Dorian unknowing made a deal with that may or may not be personified in Lord H. Right now I don't know and will go with the flow. Sybil did die sooner than I would have anticipated.

Why do you think Wilde had a chapter showing us Sybil's family, if she was going to be out of the story soon anyway?

Robin P wrote: "Why do you think Wilde had a chapter showing us Sybil's family, if she was going to be out of the story soon anyway?"

I presume that our getting to know her and her family was to enhance our horror at Dorian's change in attitude and actions toward his former "love" and his callousness at her resulting suicide. While just a few chapters before I was saying I kind of liked Dorian, at this point I think he's atrocious. I believe Wilde intended me to have both feelings.
A week ago, my wife and I were watching some TV show and as they were spending more time on a character, I remarked that it looked like their going to kill him off, as shows often take time getting us to know and like a character right before killing him off to enhance our emotional loss.

I too was horrified by Dorian’s abrupt change in attitude towards Sybil because of her acting. My disgust was increased by the way he sought to rid himself of all responsibility for Sybil’s death. Lord Harry’s influence must have completely overwhelmed him by the time he treated Sybil so cruelly. Once again Lord Harry found an opportunity to denigrate women when he said……

“My dear Dorian, the only way a woman can ever reform a man is by boring him so completely that he loses all possible interest in life. If you had married this girl you would have been wretched.”

Could the whole episode of Dorian and Sybil be the author reflecting on the way the aristocratic young men of the time would indulge themselves in dalliances with actresses without any consideration of the possible consequences?

The symbolism inherent in the episode of moving the picture up into the school room, both in terms of hiding away his secret and having a heavy burden to carry, was well written.

“Something of a load to carry, sir,” gasped the little man, when they reached the top landing. And he wiped his shiny forehead. “A terrible load to carry,” murmured Dorian, as he unlocked the door that opened into the room that was to keep for him the curious secret of his life and hide his soul from the eyes of men.’

Now the preface to this book makes more sense. Dorian can love Sybil only through her „art“, once that part has been removed by her behavior he has no use for her. Keeping this in mind I was not too surprised by the sudden change of attitude.
Dorian is enthralled by Henry‘s hedonism and his views of women („misogynistic“ is the right word for this I believe). He had no problems casting his friendship to Basil aside. And now he has no second thoughts about casting Sybil aside as well.
Wilde seems to incorporate criticism towards the lifestyle of the „useless“ aristocrat Henry.

I wasn't terribly surprised that he stopped "loving" her. Seems believable for a teenage romance (do we know how old Dorian is supposed to be? It's been a while since I read the book, but his behavior suggests 19 or so) - and I don't believe he actually loved Sybil. He got caught up in his feelings at seeing her onstage, and he would have lost interest in her with or without Henry's influence.
His callous behavior toward her, and his attitude after her death, are signs of his degeneration though. They don't seem to be part of his natural disposition.

I found this section to be very clumsily written, both in terms of language and in terms of storytelling strategy, chapter 5 especially.

The girl laughed again. The joy of a caged bird was in her voice. Her eyes caught the melody, and echoed it in radiance: then closed for a moment, as though to hide their secret. When they opened, the mist of a dream had passed across them.

Was that chapter ghost-written by a Victorian pulp fiction author? Honestly! And as for the narrative strategy, I agree with Brian that the family scene was inserted mostly to enhance our horror by increasing our understanding of Sybil’s situation as well as tempting us to see her as a sweet innocent, not like the general run of stage actresses in the Victorian world. But what drew my notice most was the many-times-repeated threat James made for vengeance if Prince Charming harmed her. Seems painfully obvious that he will figure in the denouement.

We seem to be in the hands of an author who puts idea ahead of characterization or consistency. The comments of others above about art versus real life seem right on target, but Wilde also seems to lack the courage of his convictions. We are bidden to worship art as the true or higher reality, but when characters follow that idea they act with inhumanity. Basil follows it to heartbreak and vacillation; Dorian uses it as a pretext for cruelty; Sybil loses all value when she abandons the pursuit of art and must die, even though the reality she opts for in its place is little more than a fairy tale. It remains to be seen how Lord Henry will pay. Wilde himself would appear to be a devotee of art as a higher reality, but his characters seem to be living in a different moral universe.

You're right that his characters seem more like avatars than real people, as if each one is enacting a principle or outlook on life.

Hello! Finally back with some thoughts! I’m having a profoundly strange experience reading this. When I read this aged 17, I thought it was incomparably clever and adored the uncomfortable contrast between the flippant witticisms and the painful reality of those impacted by Henry and Dorian’s ways. And now it feels all about as subtle and finely detailed as an engraving done with a sledgehammer. I’m enjoying it, and there’s an undeniable entertainment in reading it. But it all feels a bit contrived and obvious. Wilde warns us to beware delving beneath the surface of this novel, but he doesn’t leave much to subtext (except arguably the ever presence of male affection and homosexuality). The concept of the story is incredibly creative and learning more about Wilde, it’s clearly an interesting one to read as something parallel to his sense of self. I also had not remembered the anti-semitism being quite so strong - an uncomfortable reflection of the time period and reminder that fiction is not written in a vacuum.

Well said, Abigail! After reading several of his plays I expected more subtlety and deftness, as well as greater clarity of intent. The novel form is clearly not well suited to his gifts.

Abigail wrote: "Well said, Abigail!"

I bet you've been dying to post those exact words.

I agree with what both Abigails, Bok and Ted, have said. It is a clever concept but Wilde's execution can be a bit ham-handed at times. Yes, it is still entertaining.
On a more macro level, Abigail Ted's comment contrasting her read at age 17 with the current read is a reason I've avoided re-reading certain books that I loved 50 years ago. Sometimes, I prefer keeping my memory of a joyful youthful read than having to say "I can't believe I once thought this book was so great."

LOL! Yes, I find myself wishing I had never read Charlotte or Emily Brontë as an adult, or The Black Arrow by Robert Louis Stevenson, with all due apologies to this group! On the other hand, Heart of Darkness was something I couldn’t really understand in high school, and I found it very impressive as an adult.

As far as subtlety or lack thereof, it would be hard to be more heavy-handed than The Sorrows of Satan; or, The Strange Experience of One Geoffrey Tempest, Millionaire, which we recently read. That one didn't have the contrast with the witty conversation.

You have a point there!

Robin P wrote: "As far as subtlety or lack thereof, it would be hard to be more heavy-handed than The Sorrows of Satan; or, The Strange Experience of One Geoffrey Tempest, Millionaire, which we recen..."

But the difference is that I was expecting that book to be so heavy-handed, since it was written by someone who wrote more explicitely trashy and popular work, more similar to the 60s Jacqueline Suzanne. That read fulfilled my expectations nicely.
That I find the heavy-handedness is this book, considered a more "literary" work, to be even in the same ballpark as that pop-trash novel is surprising. Yes, it does have the Wilde witty banter to help balance things a little bit. But it is less than I expected and not up to the quality of his plays that I read.

It only gets weirder from here on!

Robin P wrote: "It only gets weirder from here on!"

Sounds good! I'll just change my expectations and that'll halp me enjoy the rest of the book more.

Apologies, I'm notoriously awful at replying in a timely fashion, and I'm aware that we've now moved on to a new section of the book. I really agree with all said here. In a way, as Brian mentions, this has rather burst the bubble I'd created for Dorian Gray; and that's something I can't undo now. And, having recently reread The Importance of Being Earnest, I agree totally that Wilde's genius is better suited to a different medium. Anyway, see you all in the discussion for the next chapters!

No problem posting at any time! All our discussions remain available, for instance, even if someone reads this book next year and wants to chime in, the comment will show up as new so we can all read it if we wish.

Abigail, I agree with you about the writing in chapter 5. I thought it was much weaker than in the plays and fairy tales.
This book has a choppy plot and doesn't flow well.

A few years ago, my husband and I attended a stage version of his book and it worked well, adding some depth to Sybil Vane and her mother's character.
Dorian's complete change in personality came as a surprise to me as well.