Jane Austen discussion
What first names are repeated in JA's novels:
In no particular order, and just being fairly random to start with:FANNY - Fanny Price in MP, and Fanny Dashwood in S&S. Any other mentions?
JANE - Jane Bennet in P&P, Jane Fairfax in Emma. Any others?
MARY - Mary Bennet in P&P, Mary Eliot/Musgrove in Persuasion. Any others?
ANNE - Anne Eliot in Persuasion, Anne de Burgh in P&P (also Darcy's mother??)
ELIZABETH - Lizzy Bennet in P&P, Elizabeth Eliot in Persuasion
CATHERINE - Kitty Bennet in P&P (though she's never called Catherine I think?). Lady Catherine de Burgh in P&P. Catherine Morland in Northanger Abbey
That'll do for starters!!
I would love to sit and play at this game. Hoewever, I have to work. This also applies to men. William, Henry, Charles ....BTW, Beth, you were busy. Having a Jane Austen on my mind day.
WILLIAM - Sir William Lucas, Mr. William Walter ElliottCHARLES - Charles Bingley, Charles Musgrove
https://bethanydellemanwriter. com/resourcesI had to put a space in because Goodreads doesn't allow links, but this site has full excel lists of ever names character in Jane Austen's six novels.
Also, Persuasion has five Charles, Musgrove Sr. Jr. and Jrr., Hayter, and Smith (Mrs. Smith's late husband)
Thank you for adding to my list. I wish you were allowed to just edit my post. What a mess that would become on this site!
I made up full lists because I couldn't find any online, especially with the minor characters.Very useful, for example:
Anne Steele (S&S)
Anne de Bourgh
Lady Anne Darcy (Darcy's mother)
Anne Weston (nee Taylor), daughter is Anna Weston
Miss Anne Cox (resident of Highbury, Emma)
Anne Elliot
Anne Thorpe (sister to Isabella)
Anne Mitchell (friend of Isabella)
Mary King (P&P)Mary Crawford
Mary Bennet
Mary Musgrove
Jan wrote: "Mary King (P&P)Mary Crawford
Mary Bennet
Mary Musgrove"
And:
Lady Mary Middleton (S&S)
Mary Price (deceased)
Lady Mary Grierson (naval wife, Persuasion)
Mary (maid to Mrs. Smith, Persuasion)
Lady Mary Maclean (Persuasion, at concert)
Wow - loads more than I thought, even for the girls' names!!!I think the boys names are tougher though to sort out who is who across the novels.
It is quite striking, though, how much she did re-use names.
The really weird one is her use of Jane - but then, of course, she published anonymously, so maybe she smiled when she gave a character her own name. Almost a 'false clue'???
I always hated my name (Janet) and would never inflict it on a character. Janet Jackson has pizzazz. Generally, you think of Janet Reno, who while smart, not pizzazz. I guess it was never really popular enough for it to have a real image associated with it.On another note, important characters where you never know their names, Mr and Mrs Bennet, for example.
Interesting not to know the names of the Bennets! I wonder what they were?!Janet is a name 'of its time' (the 60s I would say?), along with Carol and Susan and Linda and Karen.
I don't think many children are called any of those very often any longer?
My guess is that Mrs. Bennet is named Jane, since Jane Austen almost always names the first girl after her mother (Maria Ward (Lady Bertram) has first daughter Maria Bertram)We have no clues at all for Mr. Bennet because he has no sons and no named relations.
Mrs. Norris might be named Elizabeth because she is Betsey Prices' godmother.
By the same logic, Anne might be named for Lady Russell.
Mrs. Musgrove is most likely Henrietta.
And clearly Colonel Fitzwilliam's first name is Darcy! (Darcy Fitzwilliam and Fitzwilliam Darcy, I crack myself up)
I think most of them as 50s names, at least in US.
Yes, guess it's 50s in terms of their birthdates. Great surmises about the likely first names of characters we don't know - very plausible.
Maybe not Darcy Fitzwilliam (hilarious though it would be!) as the Colonel is related to Darcy via their mothers, and Darcy is Darcy's father's name (if that doesn't sound confusing.)
What is interesting for me that JA uses surnames very liberally: - in NA the hero is Henry, while in MP Henry is the villain
- same for Elizabeth (P&P vs P)
- Fanny (MP vs S&S)
- George (P&P vs E)
- Frederick (NA vs P)
Yes, very true! I'd never noticed before. Maybe she felt she had to be 'fair' to a name, and one time it was a baddy's name and the next a goody's, etc.'Mary' I think is 'two baddies', in that it is for Mary Crawford and Mary Musgrove. The latter isn't really a baddie, but she's definitely a PITA (Pain in the xxxx)!
Hopefully poor Mary Bennet is not tarred with that same brush, poor girl.
"Mary B" is a retelling from Mary's point of view. I found it cringe worthy. Mary. however, is a sexual dynamo. Colonel Fitzwilliam is worse than Wickham, even Jane is cruel to Mary.
I wouldn't call Mary Crawford a villain either, she's just trying to figure out what she wants in life. She doesn't actually hurt anyone.And Mary Bennet is a major jerk. Her sister is ruined and she doesn't even really care, she just quotes some stupid stuff about learning lessons. She is not a sympathetic character, she's a pretentious know-it-all. Let her be tarred,
To my mind Mary Crawford is a good soul It comes out several times, She just woulnt make an appropiate wife for a country clergyman (even after Beths explianations I am still confused abuot the differences between the various names of protestant clergy...}[ paster vicer parson etc}
I agree that Mary Crawford is not a bad person. Her upbringing is questionable, but I can say that about the Bennet girls as well. She would not be good for Edmund, that is for sure. And clearly she is ready for older brother Tom to die off to satisfy her ambitions for Edmund.I like Kitty Bennet. I've always like her line, "I do not cough for my own amusment," to her mother. It shows some cleverness, I think. But the rest of P&P portrays her as a thick headed follower of Lydia. I like when she gets a better portrayal in sequels and variations.
Mary Bennet on the other hand is a complete dullard. She's too boring to be interested in a nice young officer (they weren't all Wickhams) , but also can't see the opportunity of having Mr. Bingley and Mr. Darcy around, even as friends. Her only redemption, if you can call it that, is she does notice some good qualities about Mr. Collins. This may make her foolish in the eyes of the reader, I don't know. But she never acts on it in P&P! How many opportunities does she think will come her way in that little market town? I read one P&P variation where Mary Bennet does actually pull her mother aside and tell her to quit pushing Mr. Collins onto Elizabeth. And Mary actually gets him. Future Mistress of Longbourn is not a bad life for her considering how she is portrayed throughout the book.
I always thought, Mary Crawford & Henry Tilney would be a great match. While a 2nd son and a clergyman, Henry T has wit, an easy temper and social grace (Edmund is lacking all of these, imo) and a little bit of a wicked sense of humour that would suit Mary C.
Mary finds church boring, though. But otherwise, yes. Colonel Fitzwilliam?
Mrs wrote: "To my mind Mary Crawford is a good soul It comes out several times, She just woulnt make an appropiate wife for a country clergyman (even after Beths explianations I am still confused abuot the dif..."I am not sure where you live, Mrs B. I find it a bit confusing, too. Sometimes I look it up when reading a novel set in the UK. In the US, it varies by denomination and personal preference.
Melindam wrote: "I always thought, Mary Crawford & Henry Tilney would be a great match. While a 2nd son and a clergyman, Henry T has wit, an easy temper and social grace (Edmund is lacking all of these, imo) and a ..."Like a good wine with the right meal, nice pairing!
Jan wrote: "Mary finds church boring, though. But otherwise, yes. Colonel Fitzwilliam?"This is also another great pairing. She has a dowry and he has connections. Although, they will need the earl to buy them a house in town (a typical wedding present for second sons of peers).
I have seen some people match the Colonel with Georgianan. I know it was more accepted then, but cousin marriage still bothers me. Lizzy and Mary would get along well, too.
Yep, Colonel Fitzwilliam & Mary Crawford would work, though Elizabeth is implying in P&P that the dowry market price for an earl's 2nd son is 50,000 pounds. I don't know if she was teasing Col. F or it was JA implying that this was a reasonable "price". If so, Mary C's 20,000 would not be enough for Col F. :)
Emma & Georgiana Darcy are the richest heiresses in JA novels, though I think Willoughby's wife was said to have 50,000 pounds.I think she was called Sophia, so another instance a "negative" character sharing a name with a positive character in a later book: Mrs Croft is called Sophy (I can't remember if it was spelled Sophie or Sophy, sorry.)
Melindam wrote: "Emma & Georgiana Darcy are the richest heiresses in JA novels, though I think Willoughby's wife was said to have 50,000 pounds.I think she was called Sophia, so another instance a "negative" chara..."
Mary King had a lot of money, but no other info other than prey for the Wickhams and Wiloughbys.
Mary King’s inheritance was ten thousand pounds and was from her grandfather. She had an uncle in Liverpool. And Lydia said she had freckles, which was not a compliment back then. Beauty lotions were sold to rid ladies of unsightly freckles!
Shana wrote: "Mary King’s inheritance was ten thousand pounds and was from her grandfather. She had an uncle in Liverpool. And Lydia said she had freckles, which was not a compliment back then. Beauty lotions we..."Oh, I know they did not consider her pretty. I did not remember how much money she had. Enough to attract Wickham. And as Charlotte Lucas said (referring to money) beauty is not the only virtue.
Mary Bennet gets a sympathetic, though not without some criticism, in The Other Bennet Sister' published last year I think.Mary B will drawn contempt from those who are not like her, but for anyone who has been a 'Plain Jane' surrounded by clever/witty/brilliant/lively sisters who are clearly preferred by one parent or the other, or both, it's impossible not to feel for her. She's dull, not very clever, dead plain....and knows it. She tries desparately to find an id for herself, a 'niche', a 'role' in a family that couldn't give a stuff about her. She's a colossal failure and knows it. Poor Mary. In the novel I mentioned she 'finds herself' and 'comes good'.#
She's almost, come to think of it, the female equivalent of Dick Musgrove in Persuasion, the long-dead brother of Charles, Lydia and Henrietta, whom no one liked, respected or barely cared about (though he seems to have had his mum's retrospective love at least.)
Mary Bennet surely has to be FAR preferable to the ghastly Lydia!
I think Mary Crawford is Lizzy Bennet 'gone wrong'. She has no heart or much principle, and the comment that she would have liked Tom Bertram to have died so Edmund can inherit the baronetcy is just scarily revealing.That said, I think marriage to Edmund might have 'redeemed' her, just as, ironically, Henry's marriage to Fanny might have 'redeemed' him too.
I think Georgiana Darcy and Henry Tilney would have made a good match. He'd have drawn her out of herself, and made her laugh a bit more, and 'lighten up'. And think how the General would have adored his son marrying an heiress!!!!
I don't like the idea of Col Fitz for Georgiana, not because of cousin marriage (there isn't a taboo on that in Europe - not entirely sure why there is in the USA?) but because he's too old and too 'safe' for her.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "I think Georgiana Darcy and Henry Tilney would have made a good match. He'd have drawn her out of herself, and made her laugh a bit more, and 'lighten up'. And think how the General would have ad..."
I've never liked the Georgiana/Colonel Fitzwilliam pairing because he's her guardian, it just doesn't sit right with me.
If Colonel Fitz was going to marry anyone in the book, I'd pair him with Caroline. She's witty and fun, and would love to be connected to an Earl.
I wonder about Mary Crawford because we are told after Edmund she swears of second sons. She's looking for someone with an estate.
I think William Price and Georgiana Darcy might be nice :)
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Mary Bennet gets a sympathetic, though not without some criticism, in The Other Bennet Sister' published last year I think.Mary B will drawn contempt from those who are not like her, but for anyo..."
Being the overlooked plain Jane and a wall flower, I can certainly empathize with Mary, but I would never get up and play piano in front of others, even if I knew how. I have heard "I met your sister. You do not look ANYTHING alike. She is sooo pretty!" When she is so tall or you are fair and she is dark would do just fine to differentiate us.
I do not find Mary B quite so bad. Beth, I agree with you about Mary Crawford: she's Lizzy Bennet turned to the dark side.
The Mary I am absolutely disgusted with is Mary Musgrove. She's a total leech a kind of energy vampire who thrives on draining the joy (or trying to) out of people. Ugh.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "I think Georgiana Darcy and Henry Tilney would have made a good match. He'd have drawn her out of herself, and made her laugh a bit more, and 'lighten up'. And think how the General would have ad..."
There is certainly an ick factor on cousin marriage in the US. There is the whole Look what it did for the Romanovs and hemophilia thing. Though apparantly if it is a one off, marriage to a first cousin is unlikely to mess with your offspring. It is when it is repeated through the generations. Also, with never having an aristocracy/primogeniture thing, there was no need to keep the money in the family. And there is the ick factor of almost like marring a brother or a sister. Eww. By the Civil War (1860s) it had pretty much becoming taboo.
Not sure what the Canadian view is on this.
Melindam wrote: "I do not find Mary B quite so bad. Beth, I agree with you about Mary Crawford: she's Lizzy Bennet turned to the dark side.
The Mary I am absolutely disgusted with is Mary Musgrove. She's a tota..."
I could not agree more about Mary Musgrove. Ugh!
Apparently cousin marriage is genetically okay as long as you don't do it too often and there isn't a recessive disease in your family (like hemophilia). but I don't think most people do it here.Interestingly, it has become an issue with the Mennonite communities near where I live. They just don't have a lot of selection and are now trying hard to diversify families. They have serious gene puddle problems.
Yes, when you have to marry 'in' for any reason, cultural/religious/not many other folk around (!), then definitely it can become genetically dangreous. I believe in some communities, such as Orthodox Jews, where 'marrying in' is 'the norm', it is customary to have genetic counselling pre-marriage to check just what the risks might be of 'yet another' endogamous match.
If Colonel Fitz was going to marry anyone in the book, I'd pair him with Caroline. She's witty and fun, and would love to be connected to an Earl.**
Caroline? I'm wracking my brains and can't think who. Now you'll tell me and I'll go, 'Durgh, of course!'
Caroline Bingly, the mean girl after Darcy so she is always dissing Lizzy with her sister Louisa Hurst.
Oh gosh, I wouldn't wish her on anyone nice like Col. Fitzwilliam!!!!!!But maybe if she makes a glittering match, having been balked of Mr D, she'll improve in character???
Mr Eliot might be tempted? She's rich and fashionable and would enjoying being Lady Eliot (and outranking Mrs Darcy!!!!)
I've done that match actually.Caroline Bingley is not that bad, she's a bit of a mean girl and a social climber, but in the grand scale of things she doesn't do anything that evil. Compared to Fanny Dashwood or Mrs. Norris especially.
"Elizabeth" (and variations thereof): Eliza Brandon (S&S), Eliza Williams (S&S), Elizabeth Bennet (P&P), Elizabeth Ward Norris (MP), Elizabeth "Betsey" Price (MP), Isabella Woodhouse Knightley, Elizabeth Elliot (Persuasion), Isabella Thorpe (NA), Elizabeth Watson (the Watsons)."Mary" (and variations thereof): Mary Jennings (also known as Lady Middleton from S&S), Mary Bennet (P&P), Maria Lucas (P&P), Mary King (P&P), Maria Ward (also known as Lady Bertram, MP), Maria Bertram Rushworth (MP), Mary Crawford (MP), Mary Price (MP), Mary Musgrove (Persuasion), Mary Edwards (The Watsons).
I remember reading someone claiming that Jane Austen must have had it in for someone named "Mary", mistakenly taken to be Mary Wollstonecraft, and that really it was one her brothers' wives whom she did not like.
Even so, these were very common first names for women at the time (respectively after Queen Eilizabeth I and Queen Mary I of England), which means that perhaps one should not read too much into Austen's use of them for her characters: "Then followed the history and rise of the ancient and respectable family, in the usual terms; how it had been first settled in Cheshire; how mentioned in Dugdale, serving the office of high sheriff, representing a borough in three successive Parliaments, exertions of loyalty, and dignity of a baronet, in the first year of Charles II, with all the Marys and Elizabeths they [the men of the Elliot family] had married; forming altogether two handsome duodecimo pages...." You can almost imagine Jane Austen saying: "blah, blah, blah".
"Jane": Jane Bennet (P&P), Jane Faifax (Emma). I think those are the only two "Janes" in the main novels, if I'm not mistaken. There's this, of course: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/3676063...
Yes, I guess Caroline Bingley isn't the worst by any stretch. Which does lead to the question, well, who is the worst then?I agree Fanny Dashwood (and her equally horrible mother) are right up there on the list. Who else I wonder?
Can we draw up an exhaustive list?!
(Yes, trivial, I know, but it does get the brain cells working!)