The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

This section contains the jarring juxtaposition of dinner parties full of Harry’s cynical aphorisms , and the horror of Dorian’s current life. Did you find Harry less amusing than in the opening scenes?

When Dorian can’t enjoy high society, he tries to escape to the low world of opium dens. But his guilt goes with him, as he is recognized by an acquaintance, and then by Sybil’s brother James. Did anyone forget about James? Dorian saves himself by showing his young face, but afterwards Sybil assures James that he had the right man, who has sold his soul for eternal youth.

Dorian continues to be haunted, thinking he sees James at a hunting party. The unknown man who is shot seemingly by accident turns out to be James. This should be good news for Dorian, but his guilt and remorse have caught up to him. He thinks he can make a new start by being good and marrying a good woman. His resolution is too late. When he looks at the painting, he is horrified and decides to destroy it. But when people hear a cry and come in, they see that the man and the painting have magically reversed their appearance.

Did you expect this ending? Was it too obvious? A bit of a letdown?

For those who read The Sorrows of Satan, how does this compare? One thing I noticed was that in Wilde’s book, the few women are rarely seen and not real characters. The other book was writt by a woman, and the women, while stereotyped as bad and good, have more of a role in the story.

Quickie note: Do you think the woman who assured James that Dorian really was Prince Charming was actually Sybil? I wondered, but thought she might have been simply someone who was in the acting troupe with Sybil and had fallen in the world. It was kind of a loose end.

I actually enjoyed Harry’s banter more in these scenes than I did early on; the dialogue here felt a bit more natural, the sort of cleverish exchanges popular in society circles, and at least it was multilateral, with Dorian and the Duchess chiming in. The reappearance of James came as no surprise to me, it was so heavy-handedly set up at the start, but his quick and ignominious end was a surprise.

Totally agree about the female characters; I feel that’s sometimes a weakness in fiction written by gay men, but it surprised me a bit because in Wilde’s play An Ideal Husband, at least, there’s a fully believable female. The wooden female characters here seem complemented by the unrealistic male characters, and I would attribute that more to Wilde’s unwise decision to write a morality tale masquerading as a novel than to his gayness. The approach made demands on the material that had suboptimal results, at least to my taste.

The Sorrows of Satan perhaps preconditioned me to see Lord Harry as the devil, and his only role throughout was that of the world-weary tempter. We didn’t see him committing any sins himself that I can recall, only warning others about theirs while simultaneously inciting them to commit those sins. I was surprised by the detail of his wife leaving him, though if he had felt like a real-world character it would have made perfect sense—after all, he never took her with him when he went out! Not much of a life for her.

I didn’t believe in Dorian’s reformation at all. He seemed to regret and be weary of only the consequences to himself, not the harm he had done.

The ending was in keeping with the morality-tale approach but added to my sense of artificiality. Can’t decide whether it would have been better or worse to have James do the deed, with Campbell and Sybil and Basil rising up to carry his soul away. It might have been better to have him get away with it all and let the reader draw the moral. But my sense is that many of the inconsistencies and weak plot bits in the story were the result of Wilde worrying too much about how readers and critics would react.

My review here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show....

Abigail wrote: "Quickie note: Do you think the woman who assured James that Dorian really was Prince Charming was actually Sybil? I wondered, but thought she might have been simply someone who was in the acting tr..."

Oh, you’re right, Sibyl was dead!

Well, but she died offstage, so to speak, so she might have faked it I suppose. But I feel her brother would have recognized her even after the passage of years. And he would have worried about the absence of a body at the time of her “death.”

I thought the scene where James was shot a little over the top-especially since Dorian told his friend not to shoot, but meanwhile Dorian was responsible for a number of deaths, notably the two suicides of Sybil and Alan.

I agree—what bothered me the most about all the deaths in fact was that they seemed like plot conveniences, both a reflection and an outgrowth of the artificiality of the whole. As an author Wilde seems to share Dorian’s perspective that other people aren’t real, they are simply obstacles.

I wish I had some meaningful observations about these final chapters, but, aside from the relief of Lord H’s wit making a much-needed comeback, I was really just going through the motions reading these chapters. It felt like the end was being stretched out, tortured by some device designed to mangle Wilde’s talent into literary tripe. Sorry, that was maybe a bit harsh, but I am mostly dumbstruck that my memory of reading this book as a teen has been shattered by the pull of nostalgia! Abigail is absolutely correct, Wilde’s genius was in his plays!

Robin P wrote: "Did you expect this ending? Was it too obvious? A bit of a letdown?.."

In answer to all 3 of your questions: the ending was obvious but was not a bit of a letdown because I didn't expect the ending. I knew the basic story and seen parts of the movie at various times in my youth. While I knew Dorian didn't survive, my mind was blank on how. I was happy to leave it blank so, while this might be an obvious ending for most readers, it wasn't for me and so I managed to enjoy it.

Robin P wrote: ".For those who read The Sorrows of Satan, how does this compare?."

I had low expectations for SORROWS so it met them. I tried to have fun with the read and I succeeded. However, I had higher expectations for DORIAN and was disappointed by the lack of skill at plot development, characterization and other novel writing techniques. However, objectively, DORIAN did have some good repartee at a level far above SORROWS' cheesy dialogue and, while SORROWS was overly long and wordy, DORIAN, though a mess at other aspects, was efficient in length and crisply worded.

Finally, I wonder if I would have thought this was of higher quality if it was originally written as a play. Then Wilde's difficulty with expository writing would not be evident and the off-stage only depiction of Dorian's hedonistic behavior would have felt natural, like in a Chekov play.

Good idea, Brian, as a play, this story could have worked well for. The lists of jewels and so on, and the descriptions of Dorian’s rise and fall , could have been left out, with dialogue filling in the plot points.

I read both the magazine version and the book version at the same time to compare them. In the magazine version, the majority of the final chapters are missing, only the very last chapter has much the same content. I wonder if Wilde was forced to fill out his story (after censored parts were taken out) by the publishers?

At least the opium den scene gave the reader some insight into Dorian’s real lifestyle and the effect that he had on those who associated with him. Compared to the facade of his beautiful home filled with art and his ‘friends’ like Harry and the Duchess, the den provided an opposite and more accurate reflection of the inner Dorian.

’ Ugliness was the one reality. The coarse brawl, the loathsome den, the crude violence of disordered life, the very vileness of thief and outcast, were more vivid, in their intense actuality of impression, than all the gracious shapes of Art, the dreamy shadows of Song. They were what he needed for forgetfulness.’

No, the prostitute wasn’t Sybil Vane, but her life of hell was probably a worse condemnation of Dorian than his effect on the unlucky actress.

The episode at Dorian’s country house was overlong, probably to fill more pages. Lord Harry’s banter with the Duchess was also protracted and became tedious. A few exchanges were enough to show the qualities of the Duchess without Harry’s constant goading.

Dorian did blame Harry’s book for his evils but Harry (as Wilde maybe?) refuted that claim. Harry reminds me of the gang member who urges everyone else to do the nasty deed but makes sure they take the blame and never gets caught doing it himself. Even his wife was the proven ‘adulterer’ not him.

I see James Vane’s attempt at murdering Dorian and his subsequent accidental death as a reflection of the way the aristocrats of the time always ‘got away with murder,’ sometimes literally.

The supernatural ending was too abrupt, contrasting sharply with the demise of that other Sybil from The Sorrows of Satan; or, The Strange Experience of One Geoffrey Tempest, Millionaire.

I had to read Dorian’s demise again ( it didn’t take long) to see if I had missed anything. The idea of the exchange of places after the stabbing of the painting was a clever one, but there was an opportunity for some Corelliesque description ( eg grotesque writhing about, lurid screams etc.) that would at least have emphasised the horror.

I also appreciated Wilde’s comedy plays more than this novel, but he also wrote poetry and was an extensive reviewer so I might delve into some of that work in the future.

Thanks for taking the trouble to read both versions, Trev! Appreciate your insights.

I've read a number of Wilde's essays and found them a worthwhile read. I especially enjoy poetry of all kinds and find his De Profundis one of the most moving poems I've ever read.
And he also wrote fairy tales-The Selfish Giant is my favourite.

I saw a stage version of Picture of Dorian Gray a few years ago and it worked really well as a play. I think the novel is his weakest work.

I too felt that this was one of his weaker works, and felt both rushed an somewhat laboured, and again we never really see the changes in Dorian or what he is doing to corrupt those around him (and I also assumed the prostitute who told James that Dorian was Prince charming was a woman he had previously seduced and ruined).

We do see, when Dorian faints, some actual emotion and concern from Lord Harry, which belies his usual too weary to care attitude: The Duchess stood motionless in horror. And with fear in his eyes, Lord Harry rushed through the flapping palms to find Dorian Gray lying face downwards on the tiled floor in a deathlike swoon.

The duchess is very much like her cousin Lord Harry and they spar verbally in a very similar manner, and both appear to be in love with Dorian Gray.

It was fascinating that Dorian thinks that if he does good deeds, he could reverse the changes on the portrait, not remembering that it has taken on not only his corruption but also his natural aging. I found the ending suitable and "believable" in the sense of fitting with the tale, but again struggle with what Lord Harry's role is-he seems less evil to me than careless, and I don't see him so much as a corrupter of others as someone who belittled Dorian's goodness and showed him that there were alternatives (by lending him the mysterious book) and then standing back and letting him corrupt himself and others.