The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of March 2nd through March 8th we are reading CHAPTER 6: Manilla - pages 119 - 149 of the book - Eisenhower in War and Peace by Jean Edward Smith.

The fifth week's reading assignment is:

Week Five -> CHAPTER Six: Manilla - p. 119 - 149 - (March 2, 2015 - March 8, 2015)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on February 2nd

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.

This weekly thread will be opened up on March 2nd.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderator Teri.

Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Jean Edward Smith

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Introduction Thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed. Since we are discussing the same time period and the same people will be discussed in this book as in the Liberation Trilogy - please utilize those three glossary parts. They will be very helpful to you and will provide a wealth of knowledge.

This is the glossary for this book:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

However, we have an in depth glossary for the Second World War period:

Glossary - Part One - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Glossary - Part Two - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Glossary - Part Three - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

by Jean Edward Smith

Directions on how to participate in book discussions and how to follow the t's and c's - look at directives given for the discussion Landslide - What Do I Do Next?

I will modify these directives as we go along but for now utilize the information here.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

Everyone, for the week of March 2nd, 2015 to March 8th, 2015, we are reading Chapter Six.

The fifth week’s reading assignment is:

Week Five - March 2nd, 2015 to March 8th, 2015
Chapter Six: Six: Manila - pages 119 - 149

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter 6: Manila

At the end of his tour as chief of staff, MacArthur is assigned to Manila in the Philippines and insists that Eisenhower accompany him. Eisenhower requested his friend Major James B. Ord be assigned with him. Their charge was to reinforce the Philippine Army. Mamie stays in the States.

MacArthur and Ike’s relationship begins to fray, as does Ike and Mamie’s due to the long distance between them. Mamie decides to join Ike in the Philippines.

I gather I have reason for divorce, if I want one.
— Ike to Mamie upon her arrival in Manila, October 28, 1936

Folks, we are kicking off the fifth week of the Presidential Series book discussion on former President Dwight David Eisenhower - we welcome you to this discussion which will last for a few months. There is no rush and we are happy to have all of you with us. I look forward to reading your posts in the months ahead

This is a very interesting chapter. Once again MacArthur supplies most of the color. I know very little about the man, but he certainly comes off very badly here - a real prima donna, who let his subordinates do all the work and then wouldn't listen when they give reasonable advice.

MacArthur seems much more difficult in this chapter than he did in the one about Ike working for him in Washington. Maybe that special treatment that he received in the Philippines went to his already overly inflated head.

For those you know more about MacArthur, does this picture of MacArthur seem fair? What special abilities did he have that counterbalanced his rather obvious failings?

A lot of the information comes from Ike's Philippine diary, which, according to the note on page 129, he had wanted destroyed. Is it right that this diary has been made available to researchers?

Exactly, Ann, MacArthur was unique, loved the showmanship, titles, etc. I want to read more about him, but I get the impression that he did a good job in rally the troops and he proved at moments, brilliant on the battlefield plans.

Ike's prewar diary is published and available for everyone:

by Dwight D. Eisenhower

Very interesting, Bryan. I guess if you really don't want anyone to see your diaries or letters you have to burn them. Lucky for us that Eisenhower didn't do this.

Smith's portrait of MacArthur seems fairly accurate.MacArthur was certainly an intelligent and brave man with considerable leadership skills, even if can't be considered "brilliant." Also, he did have one of the longest military careers on record.

On the other hand, his unstable personality and spotted record as a commander are also important. Of course, his vanity and theatrics are what made Eisenhower dislike him so much (Ike called him "irrational").

I've heard good things about this biography, Bryan:

by William R. Manchester

And such a perfect title to describe MacArthur. Thanks for the recommend, Jerome (even if it was for Bryan).

by William R. Manchester

Thanks, Jerome. It looks like a good one. Given MacArthur's personality, I'm sure it would not be boring.

That remark of Ike's about having grounds for divorce apparently woke Mamie up. After Ike's tour in the Philippines was extended, she wrote to her parents, "I made a terrible mistake in not coming out here with Ike. It's up to me to rectify a lot of things." p. 143

I admired the way Ike was able to establish a professional, social, and intellectual relationship with Filipino President Quezon. That shows a real ability to understand and appreciate someone from a different culture. I also thought he did well to limit the expression of his anger at MacArthur to his diaries. He managed to keep on good enough terms that MacArthur continued to write him glowing commendations.

I am more and more impressed with Eisenhower's abilities.

I like the phrase "unstable personality." Maybe we can use "Diva," lol.

Here is the other MacAurthur book I was eyeing:

by Geoffrey Perret (no photo)

Again, we see the strain on army life between Mamie and Ike. Now, they harbor resentment and even anger at each other. Boy, I think if this was happening in today's society, I think they would be heading for divorce court.

Agree, Bryan. Political (and military?) wives stuck by their husbands no matter the infidelity (FDR/JFK, etc) "back in the day". Today things are different and divorce is more common. But do you think that political figures even today will talk divorce any quicker? Hillary stayed with Bill.

Yes, Teri, very true. I never dreamed Hillary would stick it out with Bill after his presidency was over. I don't think it was because it was politically expedient either.

I have a book called Embracing Defeat: Japan in the Wake of World War II by John W. Dower. According to this account, MacArthur did quite well as the Allied Commander in charge of occupied Japan, and he was popular among the Japanese - but then, as Dower points out, the Japanese were predisposed to like emperors and were used to paternalistic rule.

There are some things in Dower's book that remind me of the account of MacArthur's methods in the Philippines during the period covered by this chapter in Smith's book. He never went anywhere in Japan, although he sometimes viewed Army newsreels about the country. He had no contact with Japanese except at the very highest levels. He set up broad rules and then relied on competent subordinates to provide the details and implementations.

Perhaps one of his strengths was in finding those competent subordinates.



by John W. Dower

Ann wrote: "This is a very interesting chapter. Once again MacArthur supplies most of the color. I know very little about the man, but he certainly comes off very badly here - a real prima donna, who let his ..."

You're right, Ann. It does seem like MacArthur was much more difficult in this chapter than he was in the last chapter. But I wonder if that is because we were lucky enough to have Ike's Manila journal and Ike always felt like that or because there was a change in MacArthur following his term as Army Chief of Staff. I honestly don't know enough to say for certain (I certainly need to look at by William R. Manchester). But what I have read of him in books like by David McCullough and by David Halberstam tells me that MacArthur was always like that and, potentially, Ike felt like this about MacArthur. There may have been some idealization of MacArthur during his Washington years, but I think Ike's fawning of MacArthur ended much sooner than Mr. Smith says it did.

Thanks for the additional information, Christopher.

Christopher wrote: "Ann wrote: "This is a very interesting chapter. Once again MacArthur supplies most of the color. I know very little about the man, but he certainly comes off very badly here - a real prima donna, ..."

Yes, Christopher, thanks for the information and your perfect citations. You can actually just mention the books as normal in your text and then add the citations at the bottom. Makes it a bit easier to read.

I have read Truman and remember that there was a bit on MacArthur and the problems Truman had with him.

by David McCullough

I agree with this thread and also found the chapter very interesting. My speculation - Eisenhower was groomed for the Presidency from working with Filipino President Quezon. Those collaborations on many issues, political and militarily, had to be a tremendous learning experience for him. As for MacArthur, and Mamie - I think MacArthur's insensible decisions at times was a foretelling as to what was to come later. As for Mamie, I think their marriage was strained, but in the end, they stuck through. We will never know exactly how intimate or not they were.

Good point, Brian. That collaboration with Quezon had to be very enlightening.

Indeed, Brian and Ann, his work in the Philippines gave him great diplomatic and command experience.

This chapter can be summed up in stating MacArthur was very important to himself almost Diva like. I believe Ike saw through all the pomp and circumstance and looked at the heart of Mac's leadership, and realized early on he had his hands full. This chapter certainly didn't paint a nice picture of Mac and his life.

It is interesting that FDR postured to keep his non-supporters (Moseley anti - New Deal and FDR) from more positions of continuing power.
---------------------------
MacArthur and Ike going to Manila was really a foundation for Ike to see - from many many angles of politics working - US and international.

I think, sort of agreeing with Bryan in msg. 6 that this groomed Ike for the future - not just the Presidency but more immediately for his soon to come role in Europe with the Allies. Expanding on this and Ann’s msg 11 this was what Ike had to deal with the Brits and their command structure as we began WWII in Europe. I agree to be really impressed with Ike – but these abilities of his probably pushed him along – made Connor and others support him – eventually FDR choose him.

I was surprised that while serving in the Army and getting paid that, working for a foreign power, either MacArthur or Ike could have received so much money - ok the living quarters but tens of thousands of dollars? I wonder if that is possible in today’s military? - A real question of ethics I think.

I think also that Ike’s judgments were best made for men/people he saw in positions of responsibility – not just socially as his initial encounters with Sutherland at the Wyoming – a real failure of judgment on the part of Ike.

I think that it was maybe good for MacArthur that Truman dumped him before Ike go to be President.

Just some possible comments on MacArthur beyond what has been said already by the rest of you. He came from a military family and was always supported to be the best – and really supported Mom was everywhere for a while it seemed. His inability to be less seems to have dissolved his sense of reason. When he was demoted upon leaving chief or staff and going to the Philippines he lost his sense of recognition. He went after the Field Marshall title to offset that I think.

He really seems to have been a selfish guy noting Ike’s comments about the apartment and the money he was receiving from the Philippines.

I think that MacArthur did so well in Japan after the war because he was the “supreme commander”. He took the surrender. He managed a defeated country as the conquering hero. Perfect for the man who would not get to be the “American Caesar” – but got for a while to the “Japanese occupation Caesar”.

Regarding Mamie I think that all military marriages undergo strains from separations and suspicions. More difficult here because Mamie’s family had money to let her be more independent – or maybe better lubricated to withstand the marital pressures due to the money of her family and then what Ike earned (or got anyway) from the Philippines. Let us not forget the lasting impact of losing a loved young child.

Vince;: "I think that MacArthur did so well in Japan after the war because he was the “supreme commander”. He took the surrender. He managed a defeated country as the conquering hero. Perfect for the man who would not get to be the “American Caesar” – but got for a while to the “Japanese occupation Caesar”.

Very well said, Vince.