The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of March 16th through March 22nd we are reading CHAPTER 8: With Marshall in Washington - pages 174 - 202 of the book - Eisenhower in War and Peace by Jean Edward Smith.

The seventh week's reading assignment is:

Week Seven -> CHAPTER Eight: With Marshall in Washington - p. 174 - 202 - (March 16, 2015 - March 22, 2015)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on February 2nd

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.

This weekly thread will be opened up on March 16th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderator Teri.

Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Jean Edward Smith

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Introduction Thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed. Since we are discussing the same time period and the same people will be discussed in this book as in the Liberation Trilogy - please utilize those three glossary parts. They will be very helpful to you and will provide a wealth of knowledge.

This is the glossary for this book:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

However, we have an in depth glossary for the Second World War period:

Glossary - Part One - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Glossary - Part Two - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Glossary - Part Three - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

by Jean Edward Smith

Directions on how to participate in book discussions and how to follow the t's and c's - look at directives given for the discussion Landslide - What Do I Do Next?

I will modify these directives as we go along but for now utilize the information here.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

Everyone, for the week of March 16th, 2015 to March 22nd, 2015, we are reading Chapter Eight.

The seventh week’s reading assignment is:

Week Seven - March 16th, 2015 to March 22nd, 2015
Chapter Eight: Eight: With Marshall in Washington - pages 174 - 202

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter 8: With Marshall in Washington

Eisenhower is assigned to the War Plans department under General Marshall in Washington. Ike is promoted to major general. Ike's father David Eisenhower dies in Abilene. Ike works on BOLERO, a plan to keep Great Britain secure during WWII. Ike travels to Great Britain and is assigned to head up the European theater. Mamie remains in Washington.

Tempers are short! There are lots of amateur strategists on the job - and prima donnas everywhere. I'd give anything to be back in the field.
— Dwight D. Eisenhower, January 4, 1942

Folks, we are kicking off the seventh week of the Presidential Series book discussion on former President Dwight David Eisenhower - we welcome you to this discussion which will last for a few months. There is no rush and we are happy to have all of you with us. I look forward to reading your posts in the months ahead.

We are open folks.

This quote is telling: "Both Marshall and Eisenhower demanded team players, rejected exhibitionists, and preferred people who could solve problems rather than create them." (p. 180)

A couple of things stuck out to me in this chapter. The first thing is how willing FDR and Gen. Marshall were to take an officer who was very low on the seniority list and promote them to jobs of great responsibility. This is how Ike, who had never commanded an army in battle, is able to overleap Patton, a man who had seen combat during WWI, and become Gen. Marshall's choice for command of the ETO by the end of the chapter. At this point it is not clear that Ike will be in actual command, but rather a placeholder until Gen. Marshall arrives to take command, but it is still quite extraordinary. It reminds me of the book The Generals by Thomas Ricks and how he makes the argument that the Army since WWII has begun to calcify its leadership so that the seniority challenge is worse now than it was for Ike. I wonder if any of our military readers in this group would agree with that? I also wonder, were WWII to happen today, would the U.S. military, with its current culture, be willing to reach down the seniority chain and promote someone like Ike above his peers? I fear that the answer would be no.

The other thing that came to my mind was how intimately involved Ike was with the war plans in the first few months. In some ways, all of the staff work and training he had done in the previous chapters was preparing him for this and he shined throughout as evidenced by his ability to draft memos on the defense of the Philippines, the cross-channel invasion of France, and the need for a supreme allied commander in each theater of operations in hours. Since I am going through finals at graduate school right now, I can empathize somewhat with the pressures Ike must have been facing at this point in his life. We also see here some of the qualities that will make Ike a good choice for command later on (trying not to spoil anything here. Sorry if I did).

This portion also reminded me of one of my recent favorite history books to come out, The Mantle of Command by Nigel Hamilton. The irreplaceable role that FDR played in setting Allied goals and strategies doesn't get nearly enough coverage in this chapter as I think it should have and I would highly recommend this book as a supplement to this chapter and the chapter we are going to read next week.

by Thomas E. Ricks(no photo).
by Nigel Hamilton(no photo).

Good luck with your graduate school finals, Christopher. Once again, thank you for your comments and additional book suggestions.

Once more, this chapter impresses on me how fortunate the U.S. was to have leaders like Marshall, Ike, and Roosevelt to make the necessary changes to get the U.S. war ready.

What a contrast to the Soviet Union, where Stalin purged his military commanders and officer corps before the war, not because they were ineffective but because of his paranoia!

Smith emphasizes again Ike's amazing work ethic. Like Marshall, he appointed subordinates whom he could trust to work on their own to develop solutions. I am wondering how much these characteristics transferred over to the years he was president. It will be interesting to find out as we read further.

Eisenhower seems to make almost no mistakes in this book. I wonder if anyone thinks this book is too complimentary.

The only error that I remember is when Ike claimed a deduction for his son Ikey even though he was then living with a relative. In his letters, Ike cultivates his mentors and his friends (including Patton). He always seems willing to express gratitude or praise. No wonder he had so many supporters. Of course, this was coupled with the fact that he always seemed to do a superior job.

Ann, we still have a ways to go in the book, so I think we still have time to see some flaws. He also was a bit ornery early on, while at West Point, if I remember right.

Interesting question, Christopher, about today's army and pulling the right people into the right job. One thing I can say was that WWII was a big crisis, and in a crisis, you probably get a better chance to make wholesale changes like Marshall did.

You could argue 9/11 was a crisis, and there were reforms done, and I think the mid-level officers made a huge difference in Iraq. However, I don't think they had huge jumps in promotion.

Anne, Smith being too complimentary? Perhaps, I want to see what happens as we go along, but I wonder if the recent group of Ike biographers (Smith included of course) are pushing too far as a cheerleader to revise his place in history.

Thanks, Teri and Bryan. It will be interesting to see how the book develops.

I think the impression of Eisenhower in the 1960's was that he had been a little too laid back as president. The man in these pages is an intense workaholic and it is hard to square that with the vague impressions of him I had when I was young.

Also, I learned at the Eisenhower presidential museum that Mamie was considered a style icon in the 50's and was often on the best dressed list. Who knew!

I know virtually nothing about military ranks. Am I correct in understanding from this book that officers could be given big promotions in war time, but then reverted to their lower ranks once the war was over?

Ann ~ I am sure there is someone in this discussion that can answer with more authority, but was curious about your question on reductions as well. I asked my husband (fmr. Army, but was only in a few years, was an Army child, too) who said that field promotions definitely happen, moving you up quickly over others that may have more seniority. He doesn't know anyone that was involved in a reduction after field work, but he was pretty sure it could happen. I came across this official/unclassified document on the web that discusses reductions after mobilization. Specifically see pages 127-128. Note: This was updated as of 2 Feb 2015.

Enlisted Promotions and Reductions

Yes, this is what happens. So, a field promotion is made for Ike, but he remained a Lt. Col, then a major general in the regular army. Once the war is over, he would be demoted.

In the Civil War, Armstrong Custer is a good example. He was a general during the war, then he became a Lt. Col. after the war, fighting Native Americans.

I think it says something that most people liked Ike when he want to London. Little did he realize that he was on an interview for the "top job."

The Monty bit about no smoking was hilarious.

Appreciated the messages on this chapter thus far, but to share another observation would be Ike's personal life. This period (since Louisiana maneuvers) was an extremely busy and profound period of Eisenhower's military service, during which in his personal life - he lost his father (and presumably without a closure between father and son) and Mamie's loyalty to Ike. I have to wonder if the extraordinarily long working hours provided him with a buffer from his pains in life. Also, his son John was at West Point, so it was just Ike and Mamie, but obviously not with an accompanying social life (presumably) since Ike was so busy. The insertion of Kay Summersby in this chapter (although her role was insignificant as a driver only) makes me wonder if the author is about to bring out the wedge in Eisenhower's personal life. We'll soon see.

I would have loved to been in the car with Kay and Ike when he started going off about not smoking in Montys presence. The way he handled it certainly showed he knew how to handle people, and end up getting his way in the end.

When Marshall promoted Ike to major general ahead of 162 brigadiers more senior that defined Ike to me. He may not have been the most senior or the most outgoing but the most capable. Then in Ikes words the position was a comfort in establishing his wishes to get back with the troops. Little did he know....

He had the ability to think like those above him and realize what was needed to get the job done. For all that he was still a bit quirky in the marriage department. Imagine asking your wife to stand by a flagpole so as you embark on the most important job in your life you see her as you flew off, without any public display of affection.

A lot of interesting stuff here - interesting maybe because I didn't know.

I didn't think we actually would have had 32,000 troops in the Philippines on Dec 7 1941. Was I alone with that?

I didn't know that the US military (Marshall anyway) - served as "commanders" for the CCC.

I think the equality of 24/7 work routines of both Marshall & Ike was a link for them and therefore a leg up for Ike.

Interesting the comparison of "escape valves" - Marshall horseback riding and Ike bridge & golf - but so telling - one is a solo activity or can be (riding) and golf and bridge are certainly both social - the stern commander and the smiling general.

I think, having read all your comments, that Ike's jumping was his competence shining through. He did jobs for Marshall and others the way they wanted/needed them done and they needed him or someone like him. I think they did not want a McClellan even if he was next in seniority.

Also, unless someone else knows the image of seniority is from Atkinson but I will assume he knows.

The Combined Chiefs of Staff - called by Smith extraordinary - reading that I could easily think that Churchill was the architect. Getting the Americans fully into the game. And cleverly putting it in the States - making it also more "out of harm's way" - does anyone agreed or have a comment.

MacArthur and Sutherland still taking money from Quezon after war with Japan has started..................

Regarding Ike's flaws I think there were not so many that he did not mostly self contain.

Vince wrote: "A lot of interesting stuff here - interesting maybe because I didn't know..."

I agree with you. Interesting chapter (as have been the entire book so far) for me, because I just have not studied WWII much other than what bit I got in US History in high school and college.

Christopher wrote: "A couple of things stuck out to me in this chapter. The first thing is how willing FDR and Gen. Marshall were to take an officer who was very low on the seniority list and promote them to jobs of ..."

Hi Christopher

interesting remarks - I haven't read the books you reference but I would make a couple of observations.

I do agree that Ike had the exposure and experience to be able to take this advanced position with Marshall. However one, I think, should not underestimate that his industry and maybe intelligence, postured him to get more than most out of it and to therefore impress men in power who needed competent and dependable subordinates.

I also would not think that Marshall thought that Ike, or anyone he would have appointed to England, would be a "placeholder" - that is too simple - whether he choose Ike or anyone else he needed someone there who could do the job of getting ready for 43 which became 44 for D Day.

Good luck on your exams if they are not over yet.

Thanks, Vince. It is hard to conceptualize Ike's intelligence, because we had this old man image and you don't see IQ tests, which do not show the full picture, anyway. But you are right, I think he was highly intelligent. We forget that.