Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

This thread is for Oedipus at Colonus and Antigone for those who wish to continue the Oedipus Cycle begun in the group read.

Hi. Welcome to the buddy read for Sophocles’s second and third Theban plays (ie. those following Oedipus Rex). We will begin Oedipus at Colonus starting 8/29 (Monday).

I would like to join the Buddy Read for Oedipus at Colonus and Antigone.

Karen wrote: "I would like to join the Buddy Read for Oedipus at Colonus and Antigone."

Yay! The more the merrier. Have you had the chance to read Oedipus Rex yet? Based on the group's comments on that, I think that our interest in Jocasta's motivations really prompted the desire to continue with the series.

I'm personally, greatly enjoying the introduction to Greek plays. Bonus -- I'm having to look up Greek gods and characters as they are mentioned by Sophocles so I'm learning the mythology as well!

I have finished "Oedipus Rex". I really enjoyed it, and wanted to continue the series, and this seems like the perfect opportunity. If you are interested in Greek mythology at all, you might enjoy Stephen Fry's series - "Mythos", "Heroes" and "Troy". They were very helpful for me.

Hello, book buddies.

I am about 30% done with Colonus. I went back to reread the end of Oedipus, bc I was not at all happy that Oedipus and Antigone ended up itinerants! He specifically pleaded with Creon to look after his daughters, stating that the boys could take care of themselves but the young maidens would never find husbands after this controversy and therefore needed assistance.

But for my daughters twain, poor innocent maids, Who ever sat beside me at the board Sharing my viands, drinking of my cup, For them, I pray thee, care, and, if thou willst, O might I feel their touch and make my moan. ... O leave them not to wander poor, unwed, Thy kin, nor let them share my low estate. O pity them so young, and but for thee All destitute. Thy hand upon it, Prince.
The Three Theban Plays: Antigone; Oedipus the King; Oedipus at Colonus:

Karen wrote: "I have finished "Oedipus Rex". I really enjoyed it, and wanted to continue the series, and this seems like the perfect opportunity. If you are interested in Greek mythology at all, you might enjoy ..."

Thanks for the lead on the Stephen Fry collection. I've also been listening to YT vids. I really like the "Mythology and Fiction Explained", "See U in History", and "Overly Sarcastic Productions" channels.

Just a side note while reading.

Somewhere halfway through, there is a line by Theseus, about Athens, that struck me:

“Having come

Unto a State that champions right and asks

For every action warranty of law,”

It took many centuries until this principle of the "rule of law" was formulated so succinctly, and universally, once more:

“No man can be accused, arrested nor detained but in the cases determined by the law, …”
(Art. 7 of the 1789 Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen)

(well, as to universal ... we know that women and slaves were excluded even in 1789)

End of side note.

Ian made some really great points regarding the available translations, and I think it might aid our discussions if we share which translation we are using. In retrospect, I would have liked to have chosen one of the editions he recommended, from David Grene or Robert Fagles. I ended up with the following:

The Three Theban Plays: Antigone; Oedipus the King; Oedipus at Colonus:
Translation by F. Storr, BA Formerly Scholar of Trinity College, Cambridge

From the Loeb Library Edition Originally Published by Harvard University

Press, Cambridge, MA and William Heinemann Ltd, London First published in 1912

CHERYL wrote: "Hello, book buddies.

I am about 30% done with Colonus. I went back to reread the end of Oedipus, bc I was not at all happy that Oedipus and Antigone ended up itinerants! He specifically pleaded w..."

I've read about that much as well. There is a lot that surprised me in the way Colonus is set up and I too went back to reread te end of Rex to try to make sense of it. To address your point, I agree, Oedipus does beg Creon to care for his children. Reviewing the translation I have, however I don't really see Creon consenting to care for them. At first he seems to have some sympathy for Oedipus but even within that same conversation he ends up telling Oedipus his ability to influence things is over:
"Creon: Still the king, the master of all things? No more: here your power ends. None of your power follows you through life."
At this point in their conversation Creon has not made any clear statement about what he will do with Oedipus' children but he does seem to want Oedipus to understand that he no longer has any power or ability to control things.

sabagrey wrote: "Somewhere halfway through, there is a line by Theseus, about Athens, that struck me:

“Having come

Unto a State that champions right and asks

For every action warranty of law,”

It took many centuries until this principle of the "rule of law" was formulated so succinctly, and universally,..."

I haven't made it that far yet, but very much look forward to getting there.

Didn't democracy start in Athens and/or Rome? If so, this is a very fitting statement from a Greek writer.

The main thing I have been struggling with is that Oedipus seems to be in more of a victim role in this play. I got the impression from Rex that he left the city of of his own free will to remove the curse that plagued his people.

In Rex Oedipus says : "I've stripped myself, I gave the command myself. All men must cast away the great blasphemer....Now I've exposed my guilt, horrendous guilt,....Drive me out of the land at once, far from sight, where I can never hear a human voice...I am going-you know on what condition...Drive me out of Thebes, in exile"
Contrast the tone of that to the following:
In Colonus Oedipus says "But no, no- how could you call me guilty, how by nature? I was attacked- I struck in self-defense Why even if I had known what I was doing, how could that make me guilty?"
I guess I was just surprised by the overall feel of this first part of the play. In the second play it feels as though everyone Oedipus meets understands and wants to help him (if only the Gods will allow it). Therefore we too, as the audience, should understand that this was not really Oedipus' fault.
From Colonus: "Leader: You must know, child of Oedipus, we pity you both, we're moved by your misfortunes...you fill me with awe, you must, old man-".
I found this shift in the tone from one play to the next very jarring. It felt as though we shifted from Rex portraying Oedipus as the man responsible for the curse and taking responsibility for it by exiling himself- to Colonus portraying Oedipus as a sympathetic character who had no control over what the Gods planned for him. And who now, apparently after he dies, will be a blessing to Thebes if he is buried there.
"Ismene: They are in your hands, the oracle says, their power rests in you."
This is very different than the previous tale of Oedipus, the man whose very presence brought devastation.. Did anyone else find this change jarring? Or perhaps, did you anticipate the tonal shift a little better than I did?

CHERYL wrote: "Ian made some really great points regarding the available translations, and I think it might aid our discussions if we share which translation we are using."


I have a 1958 book from Mentor, translated by Paul Roche, that I found at a used book store. I suspect it’s long out of print, but I found this Signet Books edition with a somewhat similar cover: The Oedipus Plays of Sophocles. I feel it is a good translation. I admit, though, that I have not read the introduction. I tend to read them after the book, if I read them at all. Writers of introductions tend to assume readers are already familiar with the text and spoil the plot. Though I have read this series before, it was long enough ago I opted to go into them spoiler-free.

As I pointed out on the Oedipus Rex thread, Sophocles wrote these three plays in different years, as parts of sets of three tragedies and a satyr play for performance at an Athenian festival. They were not meant to be a trilogy, and they seem in any case to have been written out of order.

This means that any assumption that each play presumes the events in its predecessor, or sets up the opening of the following, is going to mislead the unwary reader who has critical skills developed for linked works, or immense Victorian novels which at least were supposed to tell a coherent story.

(With the major exception of Thackeray’s Barry Lyndon, the story of a con artist whose word can never be trusted, so unreliability and inconsistency are themselves working elements of the novel.).

Wendy wrote: "There is a lot that surprised me in the way Colonus is set up and I too went back to reread te end of Rex to try to make sense of it. To address your point, I agree, Oedipus does beg Creon to care for his children. Reviewing the translation I have, however I don't really see Creon consenting to care for them...."

(After posting this comment, I saw that Ian had already addressed your question. Love his input!)

My original comment --
Hey, Wendy. I'm not sure how I missed this comment the other day.

During my commute, I found a great video that prompted my recollection... Oedipus *wanted* to expel Laius's murderer from Thebes.

Also prompted from that video - Regarding the differences between Oedipus and Colonus, remember that the plays are not a "true" trilogy. I listened to this video on the way to work today (link below). It is from the "Crash Course" YT channel with John Green. (My son discovered this channel years ago while in middle school, and as a history lover I've been following them ever since.) It mostly covers Oedipus Rex, but it does give a cursory summary of the other two plays. So, *maybe* a spoiler? The presentation of how Greek plays were presented, and community members able to attend, was really helpful. I also think it's fascinating that although Sophocles wrote over a hundred plays, we only have 7 of them. And, that Oedipus did NOT have a Freudian "Oedipus Complex". Oedipus did everything he could to avoid the oracle's prophecy!

"Fate, Family, and Oedipus Rex: Crash Course Literature 202"
https://youtu.be/Cj7R36s4dbM

Heather L wrote: "I have a 1958 book from Mentor, translated by Paul Roche, that I found at a used book store. I suspect it’s long out of print, but I found this Signet Books edition with a somewhat similar cover: The Oedipus Plays of Sophocles."

Thanks for sharing this! I really do believe that we'll find comparing the different versions of some value. The one that I'm reading, translated by F. Storr, is largely in poetic format with rhymes. I enjoy the rhyming patterns. I haven't been able to find a whole lot out about the translator, but one essay on JSTOR commends the translation and says that Storr should be considered a poet in his own right.

Thank you Cheryl and Ian for your thoughts about the tone change. I will definitely watch that video link you sent Cheryl. Ian after you mentioned that the plays aren’t necessarily meant to be a trilogy I decided that I didn’t know enough of the background/ historical context the plays were written in. I knew they were written many years apart and that Colonus was written at the end of Sophocles’s life and that the plays were written out of order with Antigone actually written first but I still thought they were meant to tell a cohesive story. So being a huge nerd I started reading a textbook on Sophocles. I’m not up to descriptions of his plays yet but I thought it might be fun to share other interesting and related tidbits. For example, that Sophocles was actually born in Colonus and he (likely) writes all these beautiful descriptions of Colonus in the beginning of the play kind of as remembrances of his youth (this play was written at the end of his life). The sanctuary where Oedipus is first asked to give his name and explain himself, since he’s treading on sacred ground, really existed in Sophocles’ time. As the characters in the play display fear of the deity associated with that sanctuary so was Sophocles himself likely to have felt some trepidation when passing by the sanctuary (according to this text). I’ll share more as I find it, if you’d like. I’m about 50% through the play. How about you guys?

Wendy wrote: "I knew they were written many years apart and that Colonus was written at the end of Sophocles’s life and that the plays were written out of order with Antigone actually written first but I still thought they were meant to tell a cohesive story..."

If Colonus was written last, that would explain how Oedipus is depicted more as a victim in this play. I am again going to have to point to the John Green video. Green points out that Oedipus was a victim of fate, and that Rex causes us to consider how much control we have over our own lives. He also gives a definition of "tragedy", as defined by Aristotle.

We also have to wonder about the power of knowledge - as in, would Oedipus have been better off *not* knowing the truth? I loved hearing that in the video yesterday bc in the GR Southern Literary Trail group, we are reading ALL THE KING'S MEN by Penn Warren. I posted text from the first chapter that deals with that exact issue! Here it is, under "spoiler" for length. The quoted text is in italics, and my entire comment is being included for context.
(view spoiler)[
When I learned that RPW is (as in still is) the only person to win a Pulitzer Prize in fiction and poetry, I really wanted to start reading his work. I'm so so glad this got voted in this month. I can't wait to understand why it's such an important part of the southern literary canon.

I see some of the life philosophy and wisdom already. From pages 13 - 14:

It was like the second when you come home late at night and see the yellow envelope of the telegram sticking out from under your door and you lean and pick it up, but don't open it yet, not for a second. While you stand there in the hall, with the envelope in your hand, you feel there's an eye on you, a great big eye looking straight at you... The eye knows what's in the envelope, and it is
watching you to see you when you open it and know, too. But the clammy, sad little fetus which is you way down in the dark... shivers cold inside you for it doesn't want to know, and be warm in it's not-knowing. The end of man is knowledge, but there is one thing he can't know. He can't know whether knowledge will save him or kill him. He will be killed, all right, but he can't know whether he is killed because of the knowledge which he has got or because of the knowledge which he hasn't got and which if he had it, would save him." (hide spoiler)]

Wendy wrote: "So being a huge nerd I started reading a textbook on Sophocles...."

As are we all, Wendy. That's why we're here!

Please continue to share your favorite observations from the book.

I see that Wendy has finished Colonnus. I am going to finish it this week as well. Should we start discussion on Antigone next Monday, the 17th? Or space it out a bit more?

I have also finished Colonnus. Ready when you are to start Antigone.

I read Oedipus at Colonus last weekend, haven’t gotten to Antigone yet.

I finished Colonus too, and will start Antigone later on.

Karen, Heather, and Michaela -- thanks for updating!

I believe that we are all in multiple book clubs. So, do you think that finishing the trilogy by 09/30 is an acceptable goal? That would give us a definite timeline, but still allow us to continue on at our own pace.

CHERYL wrote: "Wendy wrote: "There is a lot that surprised me in the way Colonus is set up and I too went back to reread te end of Rex to try to make sense of it. To address your point, I agree, Oedipus does beg ..."

Sorry, it took me so long to reply Cheryl, all the evens related to back to school for the kids has been a lot this year.
I really enjoyed the video that you suggested and I felt it gave a lot of insight. Like you, I appreciated that John Green points out that Oedipus didn't have an Oedipus complex! That was a great point and needed to be said.
It was also interesting to hear that that Sophocles' audience was already well versed in the story of Oedipus. So to the intended audience, his play was not a way to tell an new and original idea, instead it was written (for many reasons including) to explore the idea of pursing truth no matter what the consequences may be. John Green also makes an interesting point about the dichotomies in the play, such as pursing the enlightenment of truth led to Oedipus' literal blindness.
Thank you for suggesting the video.

CHERYL wrote: "Karen, Heather, and Michaela -- thanks for updating!

I believe that we are all in multiple book clubs. So, do you think that finishing the trilogy by 09/30 is an acceptable goal? That would give ..."

That sounds like a reasonable goal. I'm probably going to keep going with Antigone before digging too deep into the next one. I had started it right after Oedipus Rex (thinking that since it was written first it made sense to read it right after Rex

I plan to read Antigone this coming weekend. I should be done with the other two books I’m reading by then.

I've been listening to this audio - https://youtu.be/VH5NU93chD8

The primary god for Athens was Poseidon. Do we know if Sophocles chose Athens for this play for a particular reason?

Also, I wanted to understand the geography of the plays, and found this helpful - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonus...

Yes Cheryl. I too have found the geography important.

For those planning to read some more ancient texts and texts of times when the European political map was different, I suggest buying:

The History Atlas of Europe: from Tribal Societies to a New European Unity by Ian Barnes and Robert Hudson (1998). I could link only through the ISBN. The book may be out of print. I found my copy some years ago at a used bookstore for 8USD.

Cynda (on semi-hiatus) wrote: "For those planning to read some more ancient texts and texts of times when the European political map was different, I suggest buying:

The History Atlas of Europe: from Tribal Societies to a New European Unity by Ian Barnes and Robert Hudson (1998). I could link only through the ISBN. The book may be out of print. I found my copy some years ago at a used bookstore for 8USD.

Thank you! I was able to find several affordable used options for this online.

CHERYL wrote: "I've been listening to this audio - https://youtu.be/VH5NU93chD8

The primary god for Athens was Poseidon. Do we know if Sophocles chose Athens for this play for a particular reason?

Also, I wante..."

Athenian tragedy sometimes relocated elements of pan-Hellenic myths to Athens. For examples, "Eumenides" an Athenian episode tacked on to the story of Orestes (who killed his mother to avenge his father). Appealing to local patriotism seems to have been a frequent habit of some tragedians, playing to their home-town audience.

Since much of our Classical evidence for Greek mythology is derived from Athenian literature (and painted ceramics), there is a built-in bias which makes it difficult to see what the rest of Greece was saying about the gods and heroes. A main source for such stray information is from Roman times, although it quotes lost literature from archaic or early classical times: Pausanias's "Guide to Greece."

Athenian local mythology included a disputation between Athena and Poseidon over which god would be the city's patron (or that of the whole region of which it was the capital, Attica). Poseidon struck the earth with his trident, and produced a spring of water, but it was salty. Athena produced the olive tree, which became the source of the city's wealth. She was chosen as patron, with the city then being called by a plural of her name.

However, Poseidon remained a very important deity there, with shrines on the Acropolis and, among other places, at Colonus. This despite or because of his having flooded the Attic plan in anger at his rejection.

It should be remembered that Poseidon was not only god of the sea: he had a strong cult in inland Arcadia, for example. He was often connected with springs, and was notable for creating horses on several occasions. Pegasus was his son by Medusa (long story)..

From the Homeric epics on down, Poseidon was also a god of earthquakes (a constant hazard in Greece). It is at least possible that the story of Poseidon's flood was connected with local tsunamis, although this is very speculative, since I don't think any classical sources specify such an association.

Mary Renault worked the earthquake aspect into her version of Oedipus at Colonus in the the novel The Bull from the Sea: Theseus, the chief hero of Athens, was sometimes said to be a son of Poseidon, instead of the mortal Aegeus, which idea Renault "explained" in her first Theseus novel The King Must Die.

Many thanks to Cynda and Ian. I very much look forward to following up on your comments as soon as my work schedule allows.

CHERYL wrote: "I've been listening to this audio - https://youtu.be/VH5NU93chD8

The primary god for Athens was Poseidon. Do we know if Sophocles chose Athens for this play for a particular reason?

Also, I wante..."

It is really interesting to think about the geography and regional breakdowns at the time the plays were written. From what I was reading I believe Sophocles was born in Athens in a deme (which is a sort of town with it's own governance and cults) named Colonus. So that is believed to be why Athens is the location for that play at least.
In terms of his religious affiliations, I didn't see anything about Poseidon but he was known to be a follower of the cult of Heracles and also worshiped Asclepius (the god associated with medicine).

There is a persuasive theory that at least most of the demes were originally separate political entities, and were absorbed into the Athenian political community. This accounts nicely for their separate cults. Eleusis, the scene of the Mysteries (secret initiatory rites whose secret remains that way), was pretty clearly thought to have been an independent kingdom in mythical time, from the evidence of the great Homeric Hymn to Demeter was composed (date, of course, frustratingly obscure).

Part of the glorification of Theseus, as the primary hero of all Attica (and a rival to Heracles) was the idea that he was the one who united the demes with the city proper. This was recognized by some ancient writers to be untrue and anachronistic, but Mary Renault incorporated a probably short-lived unification in her Theseus novels. Connecting Theseus with Colonus was part of the trend.

CHERYL wrote: "I've been listening to this audio - https://youtu.be/VH5NU93chD8.."

I listened to the same audio. They did a really good job with this recording. They have multiple people playing each of the parts making it very easy to follow the play. It's a great addition to reading the text.
I used this one for Antigone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2f9I... . I felt they did a good job with it as well. I'd recommend it to anyone that might like to hear it come to life.

I listened to this lecture on the drive to work. I'm going to watch it on my weekend, bc there was a lot of informative content. Prof. Davis spoke about the physical setting, but also on political motivations of the fictional Theseus character. He contrasted Theseus and Creon. He discussed the importance of family, and what makes a family a family (blood relations, or actions... can we cancel responsibility to family when they betray us?). I also liked Prof. Davis's comments on prose and poetry.

https://youtu.be/8fgvcM_-O0k

Also, will not be done with this series for at least another week... Parental and work commitments, like Wendy! I say we continue to take our time, enjoy the readings, and learn as much from them as we can! :-)

I'm starting the audio of Antigone today. It will be interesting to see how it relates to Oedipus's burial in Colonnus.

CHERYL wrote: "I'm starting the audio of Antigone today. It will be interesting to see how it relates to Oedipus's burial in Colonnus."

As mentioned earlier, the plays were written out of order, for performance in different years, and not as a connected trilogy: so you may be disappointed.

Yes Ian, I did remember that while I was listening! Thank you for your explanations on that. I noticed that Sophocles has Creon going over the citizens duty to the state. After I finish, I'm going to listen to the next lecture from that Professor who I posted about.

ANTIGONE is my absolute favorite of the 3 plays. I can understand now why they are recommended to be read in the order of REX, COLONNUS, and then ANTIGONE. I listened to this high school teacher's lecture on the way in, 30 minutes long: https://youtu.be/dVOCqf2T4uU

Finally finished Antigone. Other group reads jumped in, so I left it on the back burner. Really glad that I finally finished. I realize that the plays were not meant as a trilogy and were written out of order, but I still got the feeling that Oedipus Rex and Antigone had similar styles, while Colonnus was totally different. In fact, Colonnus was my least favorite of the three.

Karen wrote: "Finally finished Antigone. Other group reads jumped in, so I left it on the back burner. Really glad that I finally finished. I realize that the plays were not meant as a trilogy and were written o..."

I think that if not for the YT video from Professor Davis (message 36) I would not have had any appreciation for COLONNUS at all. He provided much needed context, and it was easier for me to "get it" from him than the annotations in the text.

One bombshell moment for me in another book club group was when a book buddy said that modern literature could not be understood without a working knowledge of the Bible and Shakespeare. To that, I would add that Greek / Roman mythology and history are also key. I'm not an expert on modernist literature (yet!), but I know for sure that Eudora Welty used a ton of allusions to mythology in her work, especially in The Golden Apples.