The Evolution of Science Fiction discussion

Nominations for November 2022 BotM: 1920-39, The Pulp Era

SF novels or short story collection/anthologies that have not previously been read by the group are eligible. Please check the bookshelf & the nomination rules for further clarification before nominating a book.

Previously nominated books are on this bookshelf. More qualifying authors & books can be found here.

Please add your nominated book title as a clickable link directly to the goodreads' book page, with author and year.
(If you can't create book links, please include the URL to the book.)

Tell us why you chose the book that you're nominating. Remember that books require seconding now. Each member is allowed to make one nomination & second one other book other than their own.

We'll close this nomination thread on the 15th of September, in order to have plenty of time for poll(s) and then for acquisitions of the winner(s).

Nominated:

Nominated and Seconded:
The Black Star Passes by John W. Campbell Jr.
Nordenholt's Million by J.J. Connington
The Gap in the Curtain. John Buchan by John Buchan

I have a possible nominee, namely Robert E. Howard's Conan the Cimmerian Barbarian: The Complete Weird Tales Omnibus. While it is currently considered fantasy, during its original publication the genre hasn't yet existed and it is on a brink between horror H.P. Lovecraft, whom the group read as an SF and adventures like Harold Lamb's Wolf of the Steppes: The Complete Cossack Adventures, Volume One - namely it takes actual historical places like Cimmeria and sets adventures there.

Original stories were published between 1932 and 1936 (when he committed suicide)

I would like to try some Conan stories. This complete collection is 860 pages, I'm pretty sure I will not have the stamina for that. But I can make a selection I guess.
So if allowed I second it.

I'd second CONAN if I can get kold of it.

We typically allow the poll decide if the book meets the genre well enough. That said, I've always considered REH's Conan stories to be sword & sorcery, a subset of fantasy only. Nothing SF about them, even proto SF.

REH wrote in a lot of genres, but very few had SF elements. "The Tower of the Elephant" has an alien in it & is the only one I can think of off hand. In one of his few novels, Almuric, the hero (not Conan) is transported to an alien planet much the way John Carter is in ERB's Barsoom series. Some of his horror stories might barely qualify as SF, too. He was good friends with Lovecraft & they discussed their other worldly critters in their letters.

REH finished about two dozen Conan stories & there are a lot of collections available plus some were available on Gutenberg Australia. Only one story "Red Nails" was available on the main Gutenberg.org. The rest are still under copyright which is ridiculous.

Jim wrote: "We typically allow the poll decide if the book meets the genre well enough. That said, I've always considered REH's Conan stories to be sword & sorcery, a subset of fantasy only. Nothing SF about t..."

If under SF one includes 'vanished great civilizations of the past' from Atlantis to Lovecraftian Elder Gods, then there is an SF element, but overall I agree that it isn't 'true SF', therefore I asked if it is eligible

Hey guys. Give it a rest. It's not that important.

Cordelia wrote: "Hey guys. Give it a rest. It's not that important."

They're just discussing whether or not Conan should be allowed as a nomination for the poll or not. There's no need to get worked up about people speaking respectfully to one another, Cordelia.

By the way, I vote no on Conan. Great pulp fantasy stuff but not really Science Fiction. But Oleksandr if you're interested in Conan and some of REH's stories, you should check out the Robert E Howard group on Goodreads which has a ton of threads to explore and it's well stocked with knowledgeable and friendly fans. You may even recognize one of the moderators. :)

https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "... There's no need to get worked up about people speaking respectfully to one another, ..."

At times, people have been quite disrespectful discussing what is SF or not. But if it stays respectful, it is fine.

I think the Conan stories probably had influences on "true" SF stories, and they are similar enough I wouldn't mind picking that. I won't read some huge collection of the stories, but would try a few.

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "you should check out the Robert E Howard group on Goodreads"

Thanks, joined it.

As to the discussion what is/isn't SF, for me Conan isn't SF, but in the 1930s pulps had no clear limits, so Tarzan is adventures while Carter by the same author, Edgar Rice Burroughs is SF, even if egg-bearing Martians having kids with a human or two more colors with magic abilities are pure fantasy.

I suggested Connan in spite of my own statement that it isn't SF because I think it affected SF no less than Burroghs' works and as the group is interested in the evolution of the genre, for the evolution it was important

Oleksandr wrote: "RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "you should check out the Robert E Howard group on Goodreads"

Thanks, joined it.

As to the discussion what is/isn't SF, for me Conan isn't SF, but in the 1930s pulps..."

I enjoyed reading Conan and other Sword & Sorcery stories from the pulp era but I think I would disagree that Conan was important to the evolution of SF. There has always been some crossover fiction that contains elements of SF and fantasy including stories that had societies that looked like those in the Conan stories. But I think that those authors were basing that aspect of their stories on actual literature about medieval times. My personal opinion is that later authors using medieval tropes in their SF story would have looked more to classics like Ivanhoe than Conan. I believe the Conan stories were very important to the development of Sword & Sorcery fantasy but not so much to SF.

Oleksandr wrote: "If under SF one includes 'vanished great civilizations of the past' from Atlantis to Lovecraftian Elder Gods, then there is an SF element, but overall I agree that it isn't 'true SF', therefore I asked if it is eligible"

IMO, "true SF" from this period is pretty tough to find since the term wasn't even coined until the end (1936 by Gernsbeck as 'scientifiction'?). Defining genres is tough which is why we typically check the GR bookshelves to see if anyone else has shelved it as SF &/or let the poll decide. Surprisingly, no one has shelved it as SF & the consensus here seems to be no, so I think you should choose another.

Cordelia, it's a fine & worthy discussion. Look at all the cool books that got mentioned plus it made me do a mental inventory of REH's works which I happen to like a lot. I've read most multiple times. All to the good, IMO.

Cordelia wrote: "I'd second CONAN if I can get kold of it."

I withdraw this second for Conan. I'll pick something else later

I'll nominate The Black Star Passes by John W. Campbell Jr.. It's the first of the Morey, Arcott, & Wade trilogy & very typical of what Campbell later demanded of his authors as one of the most influential editors of the 1950s. It's free on both Gutenberg.org in multiple ebook formats & on Librivox in audiobook format.

It was lampooned in the early 70s by Harry Harrison in Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers. Basically a rewrite in the same style, but the characters start out the same & turn out to be quite different. Any book worthy of being lampooned & written by such an influential figure is very important to the evolution of the genre.

I second "The Black Star Passes". It's Free on Audible

Jim wrote: "Surprisingly, no one has shelved it as SF & the consensus here seems to be no, so I think you should choose another."

Ok, I withdraw the nomination, but I currently have nothing to replace it

I nominate Nordenholt's Million by J.J. Connington, 1923. After a catastrophe threatens to kill all humans, a rich man builds a refuge to save 1 million people, while leaving everyone else to die.

This was reprinted in 2016 so is relatively easy to get.

I'll second Nordenholt’s Million.

I will nominate The Gap in the Curtain by John Buchan, 1932. Buchan was a prolific author of thrillers and historical novels. He was also a pretty high powered British Conservative imperialist, who ended his career as Governor General of Canada. I like his fiction and I’ve read quite a bit of it. As far as I know this is his only novel that might be considered science fiction or fantasy. Several characters get a look at a newspaper front page from one year into the future. We follow their actions and see how they work out. I read the book a few years ago and as I recall it was enjoyable. Way outside the main line of pulp sf evolution, as exmplified by the Campbell, though. The book seems to be easily available online.

Stephen wrote: "I will nominate The Gap in the Curtain by John Buchan, 1932. Buchan was a prolific author of thrillers and historical novels. He was also a pretty high powered British C..."

Interesting! Buchan is of course most well known for The 39 Steps which was filmed by Alfred Hitchcock. The sequel to 39 Steps, Greenmantle, is one of Guardian's 1000 Novels Everyone Must Read list.

Brian Clegg was talking about "the gap in the curtain" recently:
https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog...

I second Gap in the curtain

The poll is up for the November BofM: 1920-1939, The Pulp Era. You have until October 6, 2022 to vote:
https://www.goodreads.com/poll/list/1...

The winner for the November BofM: 1920-1939, The Pulp Era is The Gap in the Curtain by John Buchan. You can join the discussion starting November 1 here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...