Jewish Book Club discussion

A classic on the subject of forgiveness.
What do you remember from previous reads, or what are you getting from your first read?
Talk about it here.

Very good book
Everybody writes it is about forgiveness but in fact it is much deeper . How do you cope as a human being towards hate and genocide when you meet individually perpetrators and their family .
How your own ethics can handle crimes against humanity .

The book of Simon Wiesenthal is full of questions
To read and speak about it

Richard wrote: "Very good book
Everybody writes it is about forgiveness but in fact it is much deeper . How do you cope as a human being towards hate and genocide when you meet individually perpetrators and their ..."

Richard... hi, hope you are well.
You nail the crux of this book beautifully, which happens to be the million dollar moral question.
There are many variations of this story below, but we know Wiesenthal wrestled with it.
When a dying SS soldier in the Lemberg concentration camp asked for a jew so that he could ask for forgiveness, Wiesenthal was chosen. The SS soldier vaguely apologies then asks Simon for forgiveness. Wiesenthal leaves the room remaining silent.
He was not entitled to give forgiveness on behalf for the entire jewish people who were tortured by his actions and those of his colleagues.
//
That was then, and this is now. So I agree with you Richard to your many points. And...do moral ethics change with the times?
Our survivors will age out in about eight years, so do we accept an apology from the families of soldiers who were not alive or responsible for those twelve years?

Dilemma or Not
Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the year commands forgiveness from every jewish person. What is expected of us every year from G-d in this instance?

I read this nine years ago, and now I'm thinking about it all over again.

The different religions have very different ideas about forgiveness--what it is and its purpose. I remember one respondent said that because he didn't forgive the Nazi soldier, he was worse than the soldier (although it would be interesting to look at the book again and be sure I read it correctly).

What people are looking for? Reminds me of People Love Dead Jews

In her book The Hiding Place, Corrie ten Boom had to decide to forgive one of the former prison camp guards - a very difficult but profound decision.

Jazzy wrote: "In her book The Hiding Place, Corrie ten Boom had to decide to forgive one of the former prison camp guards - a very difficult but profound decision."

Both you and Jan are right. Wiesenthal couldn't answer the soldier at the time, but beat himself up for years questioning his choice.
There are many versions of what happened .

I just started it.... Perfect Elul Book!

Amy wrote: "I just started it.... Perfect Elul Book!"

Yes, it is a perfect one.

The Sunflower was a pick from the Jewish Book Club for September, just in time for the holiday of Yom Kippur which discusses forgiveness. The tag line of the title is "On the Limits and Possibilities of Forgiveness." I saw that when I ordered and picked up the book. But I did not see anything else, until I went to begin to read it. There is a banner across the cover of the book, which poses a moral question. Right there on the cover. The question is this: You are a prisoner in a concentration camp. A dying Nazi soldier asks for your forgiveness. What would you do?

So of course, any thinking person is going to try to solve this conundrum on first impression, even before starting the book. But then one sees, that there is the story - this actually happened to author Simon Wiesenthal, who eventually became a Nazi Hunter and lawyer who put the Nazi's on trial during Nuremberg. But then the next 177 pages, is a symposium's worth of 55 responders and responses. Including the Dalai Lama, Robert Coles (Harvard's author of the Spirituality of Children), a Nazi officer, and countless others. About 1/3 of the responders are Jewish, including Telushkin, both Heschels; Abraham and Suzannah, Harold Kushner (author of Why Bad things happen to Good People), and Roger Kamnetz, (the Jew and the Lotus). A Cardinal is asked to respond, as well as Dennis Praeger. It's a fascinating Symposium, and lots of emerging points of view on whether forgiveness should be given.

My first reaction did not mirror anyones around me. I said, like absolutely every single responder then and now reacted, we cannot possibly know or imagine what those circumstances must have been like, and who knows how living with that level of loss and degradation would change a response. But that my answer would be that ideally one should try to get to forgiveness. I think of this from a trauma model. That when the unforgivable happens, one shouldn't rush to forgive, but that healing and transformation only lets go for the harmed, when forgiveness and some iota of compassion comes into play. Only then does healing begin. And with our currently divisive world? Of course I am angry and frightened. But anger and grudge does not help us build the bridges we need to move forward. Only love and vision does that. I was reminded of my father on Yom Kippur, the year after Bernie Madoff wiped us all out, and 27 other people that were my fathers friends, family, clients, etc. My father whom stands for ethics, character, and integrity. We were doing Taschlich, throwing bread into the water with forgiveness and prayers. Should we forgive Madoff? That made such an impression on me that I will never forget. For who my father is. Recently, I met someone else who has kids our age, whose father in law also lost in this way with Bernie Madoff. He says his father in law never got over it. Was never the same. Mine, lives every day trying to make it a good one. That tells and shows me a lot. My friend tells me a story of her father doing what he perceives to be the "right thing" against his own benefit. She asks me if she should forgive, as her father has done. This is the question Yom Kippur asks. Not just for our thoughtful forgiveness, but what it means to forgive, and is it possible. With 32 years of working in trauma, I would say the human spirit is not only capable of it, it is the step that leads to healing. Not full forgiveness, but a something of sorts. The ability to ask the question perhaps.

Simon does not forgive. But he stays and hears the entire confessional. He does not withdraw. His presence to hear the story was a comfort of sorts, and perhaps that in itself offered healing to them both. And then he slowly walked out without looking back, and then the question stayed with him for the rest of his life. Every single one of the 55 responders, felt that was the exact right thing to do. All but one (Andre Stein) commended him for not deliberately not destroying the SS officers' image in his mother's eyes, when he visited her. He did not pain her by correcting her narration of who her son was. Most people felt that was the right thing to do, to protect her innocence. Andre Stein, who lost 62 relatives to the Holocaust felt that bystanders who proclaim their children to be "nice boys who wouldn't hurt a fly" to be unknowing collaborators who need to stand for justice, even of their own. The SS officer who offered his thoughts also felt forgiveness should not have been given, and that it weighs heavy and should, beyond the legal consequence and ramifications. But also praised the sidestepping of confronting the officer's mother with the truth.

Friends of ours suggested that a true confessional must be meant, and backed up by action. It cannot just be some words. There has to be a level of recompense. I am reminded of when Derek Black (KKK intended heir to the throne) left Stormfront and the White Supremacy movement, his girlfriend said - it is not enough to leave. You must do recompense, and become an activist on the other side. You cannot abdicate your responsibility to atone for the sins you were not aware were sins. He wrote a public letter to the Southern Poverty Law Center, and has been an activist for change ever since. The book itself (Rising Out of Hatred) is an example of that. Some of the responders spoke to that. What does absolution without recompense or collateral action mean? Is remorse authentic, and how would one know?

I had the thought while reading it, about how interesting it was that the Christian Religious leaders all immediately went to forgiveness, while the Jews did not. And the Buddhists spoke towards and opportunity for transformation - which was the angle I had been heading in. Something about not carrying anger for one's own health and lightness and strength as a choice. One of the Christian speakers said, "Hey, forgiveness is kind of our thing! We are all about that. That's what we do." And they each did it so respectfully of Simon's experience and the treatment of a complicated issue. I had thought about when beginning the book, about Oprah's seven part series on Belief, which highlit about 25 different cultures, and how in more than one, one could see mothers of murdered children reading Bible with the murderers. Hey, if that gives them both peace, even if the child cannot come back to life, that is something. But not something I would likely be able or inclined to do. Its a very Christian tenet. I also thought about the book Something Beautiful Happened, when a mother who lost her (non-Jewish father and son) at a needless JCC shootout, how she started an organization against religious terror of all kinds. This helped her make meaning, and bring religions together to fight against senseless violence. The idea of all of that makes sense to me. That was in line with my take.

But every one of the responders, allied with Simon's dreadful cruel experience, and gave credence to how incapable any of us are of facing these terms and making thoughtful projections of what we would do. Everyone I spoke with about the topic, and about 50 of the responders felt such atrocities could never be forgiven. And should never be. I don't disagree, I just wonder what the holding on looks like.

In any case, this was an incredibly important and worthy book to read, even without its close connection to the recent High Holiday of Yom Kippur. I am extremely grateful that the Jewish Book Club on Goodreads directed me to read it, and that I could be able to be part of the experience of thinking and feeling this question. I invite you - what do you think?

Amy wrote: "The Sunflower was a pick from the Jewish Book Club for September, just in time for the holiday of Yom Kippur which discusses forgiveness. The tag line of the title is "On the Limits and Possibiliti..."

Amy,
You put your heart and soul into this review.
Thank you.
Have you asked a young person from the second gen this question?

I know exactly who to ask. One of my closest dearest friends is second generation. Her family on both sides completely perished, leaving only her father, and her mother and her aunt who were in Auschwitz for 6 months. I hadn't had the chance to ask her. i will call her today and get back to you.

It is an amazing read and one of the Shoah books I recommend to my gentile friends. Forgiveness often goes hand in hand with forgetfulness. Throughout the Torah we are commanded to "remember" - both the good and the bad - and that remembrance is a critical part of our survival.

I find it chagrinning that the Church is so into forgiveness, as shown by their theologians in this volume, yet it was the very fact that they did not forgive the Jews for their wrongly alleged perfidy and deicide
that gave rise to the millenia of persecution.

Wiesenthal did a masterful job in this volume but it only opens the door to the critical issues.

Bibliophile wrote: "It is an amazing read and one of the Shoah books I recommend to my gentile friends. Forgiveness often goes hand in hand with forgetfulness. Throughout the Torah we are commanded to "remember" - bot..."

Yes, forgiveness is a complicated topic.
I first read the old edition and was struck by the (Christian) respondent who said if the author wouldn't forgive, then he was as bad as the SS perpetrator. That got to me.
My memory of that is an example how we'll gravitate toward looking through the darkest lens. I aspire to some flexibility in what lens I look through!
Happy New Year to you, Bibliophile!

What They Didn't Burn: Uncovering My Father's Holocaust Secrets
I've been following this thread with interest, trying to figure out this 'forgiveness' thing. I haven't read the book, so I apologize for shooting from the lip. Seems to me that not taking the life of a SS guard and forgiveness are mutually exclusive. I could not see my father, who went through all seven levels of Nazi hell, willfully killing another human in cold blood. (we had a friend who had fought in the Warsaw ghetto, but that's different).
What I do know is this:
1. On at least one occasion, American soldiers who happened on remnants of a death march gave weapons to the freed prisoners and told them they had 10 minutes to do as they pleased. (This from the testimonial of the Judenaltester of Blechhammer.) It's pretty clear from the context that few SS guards survived, though it's not explicitly stated.
2. I cannot recall any of my parents' friends, survivors all, who ever voiced 'forgiveness' to the Germans. The noun German was always followed by a colorful curse. None would even purchase a German car. But would any of them kill? hmmm...
3. My Uncle Ari, who smuggled himself from Romania to Palestine, joined the Jewish Brigade and fought with Montgomery, got himself locked up for allegedly sending German POWs to clear minefields....with the expected results.
4. When my daughter suggested she spend her semester abroad in Berlin (studying opera, if you can believe it), at first I was against. Then I thought, why not? Should we visit the crimes of the parents on to the children?
5. I, personally, do not have the capacity to forgive--nor do I agree with those who say otherwise. From this thread, I think it was, uh, misguided, if Wiesel indeed did not tell the mom of her SS son's crimes. (Except I'd use a much stronger term than 'misguided'.) As for those clergymen, philosophers, sociologists, writers and heavy thinkers who praise the concept of forgiveness, they live in a different dimension than me. The Biblical injunction to "remember Amalek" was used to justify some very violent actions.

Mel wrote: "What They Didn't Burn: Uncovering My Father's Holocaust Secrets
I've been following this thread with interest, trying to figure out this 'forgiveness' thing. I haven't read the book..."

Mel, thanks for your comment, not to mention the pun "shooting from the lip." 😂
At a point in the past I wrote a lot about forgiveness on my blog, which you can access through my Goodreads home page should you be interested. I was trying to work a lot of stuff out when doing that, but now as you can see other endeavors take up a lot of time & energy. It did have to do w/the differences in forgiveness in Judaism and Christianity.

As to the Holocaust and the overall approach to it, there's the standard version which was very well articulated by Shelley in Comment No. 188 on the Holocaust thread.

But there are other versions, one being that of David Hartman of blessed memory who said it's not enough to be a "Purim Jew" and necessary to be a "Pesach Jew" as well, the former being involved with existential threat and the latter with Torah and covenant. The other is Ruth Wisse. Do not discount her. She says we should use our heads and consider whether our standard orientation has indeed worked. https://www.facebook.com/tikvahfund/v...

P.S. You must admit the situation was different in The Sunflower than in what you describe since the SS man was already on the brink of death and was regretting what he'd done, not at the point of a gun or on the witness stand but in the belief of eternal judgment. In fact he might have been glad to be put out of his misery such that shooting him might have been an act of mercy if not forgiveness.

I for one I’m glad you spoke, because I think that was the whole point of the book and the symposium, is to have everyone be able to think through this question for themselves, and be able to hear different voices in different perspectives. Most of which agree that forgiveness is incredibly complicated and that we all seem to have an incredibly hard time giving it. Sometimes the atrocity is too great. I do appreciate your candor and I’m glad you spoke. Because we should be talking about this topic. And we should remember. Thank God Goodreads gives us a forum for this.

My children have struggled with my position of not buying German goods (outside of Israel) and not traveling to Germany, arguing that I am visiting the sins of the father upon the children.

Putting aside Deuteronomy 5:9 ("I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,"), I have explained it as a visceral matter - for example, if a person murdered your family, you might understandably have a visceral reaction to members of his family, not because of guilt but because of the memory based on association.

This has come up in the recent Ukrainian context as well but in Ukraine it is not limited to the past. The current Ukrainians chose to make national heroes out of the leaders of the efforts to exterminate the Jews, whether it be Khmelnytsky or Bandara.

When the new generation lacks a visceral reaction it may reflect a lack of identification with the victims - something which may not bode well for our future.

Bibliophile wrote: "My children have struggled with my position of not buying German goods (outside of Israel) and not traveling to Germany, arguing that I am visiting the sins of the father upon the children.

Putti..."
That is why I posed the question to Amy re: the second gen.

Amy wrote: "I for one I’m glad you spoke, because I think that was the whole point of the book and the symposium, is to have everyone be able to think through this question for themselves, and be able to hear ..."

Hi, Amy. Not quite sure if you're addressing me, or if you're replying to Mel, with my comment having inserted itself in between. Good either way! 😘 I too am happy for this forum.

There are who believe the Nazi asking forgiveness on his deathbed did so believing he will go to heaven w/ G-ds approval.
There are victims who accept an apology hoping that will help them get through it easier.
How egregious is the crime. Agreed Amy!
Your friend suddenly spews a disgusting anti semitic comment forgetting you're standing there. Mel Gibson, Kanye West..and more.
You are the parent of a child (g-d forbid) gunned down at school, do you forgive that person. I would not.
I just heard an hour ago -the jury in the trial of Nickolas Cruz, (the 19 yr old who shot and killed the students at the Parkland School) came back with the "decision" of a life sentence in lieu of the death penalty. I edited this tonight to include the fact of disappointment by reactions of some parents. Five of the seventeen were jewish, if that makes a difference to anyone.
Would the parents or Wiesenthal feel a little differently if they were not related to the victims? The second gen being more removed has lot to think about.
The writings as part of jewish laws by rabbis, articles, books, and comments by contemporary thinkers is opinion, not fact, and I can't speak for anyone except myself.
But how many times might we forgive the same crime.
Res Judicata ?