Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

The Mark on the Wall by Virginia Woolf is our November 2022 Short Story/Novella Read.

This discussion will open on November 1

Beware Short Story Discussions will have Spoilers

This was something else. My review was “What in the ADHD did I just read? I loved it.”

And I did love it. I think people refer to it as stream-of-consciousness writing, and it is, but it is so very much a woman’s brain with 47 things going on at the same time.

Also, I completely understand the “I am resting and comfy, and could get up and investigate, but no thank you; meanwhile, I will obsess over it” mood. I have been looking at a few books on my bookshelf for about a week that are in serious danger of toppling over, but I continue to simply watch them.

For those who are interested in this story, there is a printed version of it here:
http://digital.library.upenn.edu/wome...


You can also listen to it for free on YouTube:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dSR-OSK...

Was this actually a short story, or just ramblings? I recently read that Virginia Woolf used the short story as a place to experiment with new writing styles. As someone else has already commented, this was clearly “stream of consciousness” writing at its best. It felt quite natural, but I couldn’t help wondering where we were heading. Apparently nowhere.

Jerilyn wrote: "I couldn’t help wondering where we were heading. Apparently nowhere.”

But isn’t that often the way our minds work? We start out thinking of one thing/person and our minds are distracted by our environment (What is that noise? What is that person doing/saying? What is that on the floor/wall/window?) or we think of something we need to remember to do or tell someone.

Paula W wrote: "And I did love it. I think people refer to it as stream-of-consciousness writing, and it is, but it is so very much a woman’s brain with 47 things going on at the same time.”

I loved it as well, Paula and think you are so right that it is exactly what our "woman's brain" does all day long. The depth of the piece actually amazed me. My Review if anyone is interested.

Heather L wrote: "For those who interested in this story, there is a printed version of it here:
http://digital.library.upenn.edu/wome...


You can listen also listen to it for free on YouT..."

Thank you :)

I really prefer To the Lighthouse to this one, but I have been having a hard time putting into words why.

First, my edition has The Mark on the Wall as a short story. I really see it more as an essay. I think perhaps I like it better when the author reveals his or her purpose through the movement of characters. Was I supposed to see Virginia as a character and I was getting to hear a character's thoughts? I don't this so. This was the author directly addressing the reader, yet it wasn't. I suppose I prefer how an author making points through characters leaves some opening for me, the reader, to draw some conclusions. Reading this I was in the position of just listening to a monologue. I could agree or not. Honestly, I wanted to say get up and walk over to the wall for goodness sake. You're making a small thing so overly difficult. Finally, the other person, who I will assume is a man because I feel she writes men in a stereotypical way, goes to get a paper and then directly to the point asks why there is a snail on the wall. He solved the situation in 5 seconds. She didn't seek a solution. Sounds stereotypical.

It seemed she was using the question of what is the wallpaper Mark is to distract her away from her musings.
Quote from the the book: “Still, there's no harm in putting a full stop to one's disagreeable thoughts by looking at a mark on the wall.”
What an interesting idea to distract yourself from your thoughts by looking at a spot on the wall. And perhaps it was only when she felt her thoughts were getting too dangerous that she used this techniques.
Still, I was relieved when her mental state didn’t deteriorate in the same way as the protagonist from The yellow wallpaper. At the same time I would have lined to know something more about the character. What was her life like and what had befallen her which left her thinking those thoughts? The stream of consciousness many have mentioned left me with more questions. A little character development would have been greatly appreciated.

Maybe it's just me, but the different musings flowed at different rates, word choices, or sounds. Calm, annoyed, anxious. That sort of idea. The distraction, revealed at the end, pulled her away from the thoughts of war.
Wonder if this didn't point her toward A Room of One's Own?

Gini wrote: "Maybe it's just me, but the different musings flowed at different rates, word choices, or sounds. Calm, annoyed, anxious. That sort of idea. The distraction, revealed at the end, pulled her away fr..."

I agree. This short story reads very much like A Room of One's Own.

Gini wrote: "Maybe it's just me, but the different musings flowed at different rates, word choices, or sounds. Calm, annoyed, anxious. That sort of idea. The distraction, revealed at the end, pulled her away fr..."

You’re right. It has a sort of musical cadence. Bom bom bom, bombom de bombom, bombady bom bom. Every sentence has a different musical cadence/speed.

I agree with Lynn that this felt more like an essay than a fiction.

The book clubs that I am involved in have recently given me a great introduction to feminist literature. Starting with PRIDE AND PREJUDICE and THE AWAKENING. During the AWAKENING / Kate Chopin read, Gilman's 1892 short story "The Yellow Wallpaper" came up. Because of that reading, I believe that Virginia Woolf is building upon Gilman, especially with this passage:

And yet the mark on the wall is not a hole at all... I know a housekeeper, a woman with the profile of a policeman... She is coming nearer and nearer... I shall have to end her by taking action: I shall have to get up and see for myself what that mark -- but no. I refuse to be beaten.

In this story, the woman (that I'm interpreting) coming from the wall has "the profile of a policeman", as in structured order of a woman's role. In "The Yellow Wallpaper", the woman there is a symbol for women busting out of their traditional, confining roles.

The story closes with "Someone is standing over me and saying --". Who *is* this someone??? Because that person then exclaims "Curse this war! Gdamn this war!" I am assuming that it is an individual not of fighting age. It could be an older male, or any aged woman. Regardless, this person's last sentence hammers the final nail into the box that contains Woolf's feminist musings in this story -- that progress is made at a snail's pace; that the process of formulating your coherent thoughts can be slow and slimy, as there is so much muck to the established order.

(Re: the established order -- I had to google "Whitaker's Almanack" and "The Table of Precedency". Apparently the latter is a chapter in the annual publication of the former.)

Everybody follows somebody, such is the philosophy of Whitaker; and the great thing is to know who follows whom. In other words, Virginia Woolf and her contemporaries must know their lane and stay in it.

Whitaker knows, and let that, so Nature counsels, comfort you, instead of enraging you; and if you can't be comforted, if you must shatter this hour of peace, think of the mark on the wall.

This feels like a satirical chide to her female counterparts, as if Woolf was comically imploring-- "Ladies, ladies, please - Whitaker knows better than you do what you need for your physical and emotional well being."

Last thought -- The mark on the wall is our modern day "line drawn in the sand".

“...progress is made at a snail's pace; that the process of formulating your coherent thoughts can be slow and slimy, as there is so much muck to the established order.”

I like this. Some interesting observations, Cheryl!

Gini, great insights!

CHERYL wrote: "The book clubs that I am involved in have recently given me a great introduction to feminist literature. Starting with PRIDE AND PREJUDICE and THE AWAKENING. During the AWAKENING / Kate Chopin read..."

Thanks for these insights. Woolf so impresses me that I tend to think of her as a kind of solitary titan. This reminds me that she was participating in a conversation.

It's quite amusing to see how she got from here [The mark was a small round mark, black upon the white wall, about six or seven inches above the mantelpiece] to here [Where was I? What has it all been about? A tree? A river? The Downs, Whitaker’s Almanack, the fields of asphodel? I can’t remember a thing. Everything’s moving, falling, slipping, vanishing… There is a vast upheaval of matter. Someone is standing over me and saying— “I’m going out to buy a newspaper.” “Yes?”] Some daydream like vivid imagination.

Kelly wrote: "It's quite amusing to see how she got from here [The mark was a small round mark, black upon the white wall, about six or seven inches above the mantelpiece] to here [Where was I? What has it all b..."

This was my first Virginia Woolf read, but I understand now why she is often in conversation with Faulkner and Joyce. Reading her work is like watching an actress in a silent film... you can see her facial reactions and body language give you clues on what she's thinking. But then, bc it's a silent film you simultaneously get those thought bubbles that tell you the inner workings of her mind.

(FYI, y'all: The influence on cinema in modernist literature is not my original thought. It came up during the Welty At Home's spring reading of [book:The Wide Net and Other Stories|12593]. Jacob Agner, one of the Welty scholars in the group, mentioned this link in connection to the short story "The Winds".)

Also - Heather and John, thank you! But I assure you, these observations are always a result of the conversations I get to have with all of my book club buddies.

CHERYL wrote: "The book clubs that I am involved in have recently given me a great introduction to feminist literature. Starting with PRIDE AND PREJUDICE and THE AWAKENING. During the AWAKENING / Kate Chopin read..."

Cheryl, I was also reminded of the Yellow Wallpaper when she mentioned the housekeeper.

Aside from that, I found the writing beautiful. It's my first work of Woolf's, and I loved it. I loved the flow of the story, how she described her thoughts.

I was also drawn to deeper metaphors, how we, as humans, observe and theorize, but in reality, there is nothing but chaos. The way she wrote about the lifespan of the trees and the afterlife, it was all very touching.

I found it very relatable, but not so much "as a woman." While there were definitely more rigid societal roles for men and women at the time of writing, I think all humans can relate with the need to control and define our surrounds for safety, with the inner-struggle of peace and conflict (see: inaction and action), and with the humility that comes from an outsider giving their opinions on our problems.

Kaley wrote: "I was also drawn to deeper metaphors, how we, as humans, observe and theorize, but in reality, there is nothing but chaos. The way she wrote about the lifespan of the trees and the afterlife, it was all very touching..."

Great thoughts Kaley, thank you!

I have continued to think about the unnamed character at the end, who identifies the mark as a snail. Two individuals are looking at the same object, and coming up with different definitions for what that object is. I wonder if that was an intentional move on Woolf's part?

I think that if not for the fem lit that I've been reading, I wouldn't feel the "woman to woman" identification as strongly as I do. Starting with Austen, I was motivated to look back at women's rights during her time period. These women did not have their own legal identities, they were the literal property of the closest male relative. They could not own property, such as real estate or a horse. Having been born in 1982, I think that I've always been taught that the right to vote was the only thing women have had to fight for. No, no, no! Looking back at history, the road was so arduous and seemingly insurmountable.

Wendy wrote: Quote from the the book: “Still, there's no harm in putting a full stop to one's disagreeable thoughts by looking at a mark on the wall.”
What an interesting idea to distract yourself from your thoughts by looking at a spot on the wall. And perhaps it was only when she felt her thoughts were getting too dangerous that she used this techniques.

Great point.