Hugo & Nebula Awards: Best Novels discussion

In the discussion of starting challenges 6 weeks ago, we agreed on Dragonriders of Pern for 2022 and a new, longer challenge starting in 2023. In addition, it's been suggested that we read a trilogy as part of the monthly reads in the middle of the year. So I wanted to start getting some ideas on the Early 2023 challenge and get people thinking about the later trilogy. My thought is to complete the early challenge before we do the trilogy, and I've added in a catch-up month to help that. Ideas?

Hi Allan,

I wonder if, in the series guides you created earlier this year, it would be worth noting which ones have already been read by the group? That way people who aren't very familiar with the group's reading history would know which options are open for nominations.

For trilogies, we have available:
The Mars Trilogy (KSR) -- we've already done Red Mars though
The Snow Queen Cycle by Joan D. Vinge
The Inheritance Trilogy by N.K. Jemisin
Ambergris by Jeff VanderMeer
Lyonesse by Jack Vance
Queen of Angels by Greg Bear
Space Trilogy by C.S. Lewis
Helliconia by Brian W. Aldiss
Neanderthal Parallax by Robert J. Sawyer
Machineries of Empire by Yoon Ha Lee

I think that covers it? Might have missed a couple.

For a longer series challenge, I really want to get to (and I've been saying this one for awhile!) the Oxford Time Travel series by Connie Willis. Also enthusiastic about trying Tales of the Terran Republic by Charles E. Gannon, or Old Man's War by John Scalzi.

I think Kalin listed all the true trilogies we haven't read yet. Note, though, that many of the trilogies contain one book that hasn't been nominated. If we want to include only trilogies that have all their books nominated, the list will be much shorter (Actually, I think it's only Space Trilogy, Mars Trilogy and Machineries of Empire).

Then we have a couple of "pseudo-trilogies", i.e. nominated books that are part of a longer series, but can be read without the other parts. These are:

The Uplift Saga by David Brin
(Sundiver - 340pg)
Startide Rising
The Uplift War
Brightness Reef

Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card:
Ender's Game
Speaker for the Dead
Xenocide
(Children of the Mind)

Tales of Alvin Maker by Orson Scott Card:
Seventh Son
Red Prophet
Prentice Alvin
(Alvin Journeyman)
(Heartfire)
(Crystal City)

I'm voting against Oxford Time Travel as a Challenge, since each work in the series was nominated for H or N and it can (to my understanding) be read as two de facto duologies (Doomsday Book /To Say Nothing of the Dog & Blackout / All Clear). I've said this before, but I think we should reserve Challenges for series that include non-nominated works, preferably several.

Tales of the Terran Republic sound interesting, but I'd vote for the Academy series by Jack McDewitt.

Antti, would you be open to Oxford Time Travel as a "trilogy" in line with what Allan was suggesting?

I know we’d be circumventing the voting for August, but Blackout/All Clear is the longest entry on the list. Knocking that out would be quite an accomplishment.

Yeah, that would work. I'd feel uncomfortable just declaring multiple MR's without a poll, though. There would be a couple of ways to make this more in line with the usual process:

A) Make a poll about this plan: "Would you like to read Offord Time Travel in Jun-Aug or do you want a regular nomination/voting round?"

B) Proceed with the Trilogy nominations/voting in the usual way, but include a caveat "if Oxford Time Travel wins, we will spend the entire Aug reading Blackout/All Clear; otherwise there'll be another MR in Aug".

I like option B, it leaves the voting open.

Antti wrote: "The Uplift Saga by David Brin
(Sundiver - 340pg)
Startide Rising
The Uplift War
Brightness Reef"

Brightness Reef is actually Book 1 of the 2nd trilogy, which continues with Infinity's Shore and Heaven's Reach, so the 1st trilogy actually begins with Sundiver, although it's not that connected, just in the same universe as the others. I'd include Sundiver and exclude Brightness Reef.

Allan wrote: "I like option B, it leaves the voting open."

I like B too.

Antti wrote: "I've said this before, but I think we should reserve Challenges for series that include non-nominated works, preferably several."

I'm on board with that, I just have copies of all Oxford books so I'd like to knock them off, but it looks like we'll vote for it as part of the trilogy months.

I also found first editions of the first two Terran Republic novels which is why I'm pushing for them. The only Jack McDevitt book I've found so far was Seeker.

Fortunately the Oxford books are all nominated. I admit I’m a little biased on this series because I’ve read the first two and have been looking for a reason to tackle the last tome.

Allan wrote: "1st trilogy actually begins with Sundiver, although it's not that connected, just in the same universe as the others. I'd include Sundiver and exclude Brightness Reef."

Yes, Sundiver was the first, and I liked it, although it is not one of my favs.. I started book 2, Startide Rising, but life intervened, I guess. I recall that I bbarely started it and would like to get back to it.

I also want to read all the oxford books. To Say Nothing of the Dog the dog is one of my favorites. I like option B, also

I good many of those suggestions I've read before I was on good reads, but I wouldn't mind revisiting... I have the orginials of the Alvin Maker books (pretty sure at least HEartfire I bought brand new, before I was aware of OSC's politics and was still willing to give him money). I've read Ender's adventures plenty of times and would definitely participate in discussion. I could definitely see myself reading the Mars books or the Uplift Trilogy again as well.

I have the a couple sci fi book club compendiums of Brin, not sure exactly which they are.

This thread ended up being almost exclusively discussion of the trilogy part of Allan's question. Can we start taking (or wrap up taking) nominations for a 2023 challenge?

I've nominated Tales of the Terran Republic by Charles E. Gannon (although the most recent volume is past our "recent books" cutoff date, I think it should be ok for a series).

Antti nominated the Academy series by Jack McDevitt.

Any others series nominations people want to throw out?

I’d also be interested in trying Old Man’s War by Scalzi.

Kalin wrote: "although the most recent volume is past our "recent books" cutoff date, I think it should be ok for a series"

Yeah, I agree.

Thanks for reviving this thread, Kalin. I was thinking about it but had a death in the family this week so never got to it.

I'm of the mind that three nominees should be enough to vote on. Any other last minute ideas?

I'm voting for the oxford books

I've created the poll and sent out invitations, though I'm not sure the invites will work properly given I just tried to send it to 1400+ people (as I was typing this GR told me I hit the limit at 1000, so 400 didn't get the invite).

Here is the poll link: https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/2...

And here are the three nominees:

Tales of the Terran Republic by Charles E. Gannon
Fire with Fire - 496pg NNBN
Trial by Fire - 640pg NNBN
Raising Caine - 548pg NNBN
Caine's Mutiny- 756pg
Marque of Caine - 500pg NNBN

The Academy by Jack McDevitt
The Engines of God - 419pg
Deepsix - 502pg
Chindi - 511pg NNBN
Omega - 493pg NNBN
Odyssey - 416pg NNBN
Cauldron - 373 NNBN
Starhawk - 407pg
The Long Sunset - 451pg

Old Man's War by John Scalzi
Old Man's War - 351pg HNBN
The Ghost Brigades - 347pg
The Last Colony - 320pg HNBN
Zoe's Tale - 331pg HNBN
The Human Division - 493pg
The End of All Things - 388pg

Just a note - we’ve talked about reading the Oxford time travel series as a summer challenge, culminating in a read of Blackout/All Clear as the extremely long monthly read for August. That may change when we get closer, but for now that’s the plan.

a side note - it is interesting how Nebula but not Hugo voters like Jack McDevitt and Charles E. Gannon series

Early results suggest we'll be reading Old Man's War come the new year!

I’ve been rooting for The Academy, as I’ve read the first four Scalzi books. If Scalzi wins though, I’ll join with at least a re-read of the first book.

This is the peril of being so far ahead of the rest of the group, so many of the things we want to read you've already read. :P

Although I'm still a little unsure of the wisdom of inviting 1000 people to vote considering that likely only around 20 people have actively contribute to the group this year.

Allan wrote: "I’ve been rooting for The Academy, as I’ve read the first four Scalzi books. If Scalzi wins though, I’ll join with at least a re-read of the first book."

I've read " Old Man's War" and "Academy". So was hoping for the other one. But I will re-read "Old Man's War". I remember enjoying it.

Kalin wrote: "This is the peril of being so far ahead of the rest of the group, so many of the things we want to read you've already read. :P

Although I'm still a little unsure of the wisdom of inviting 1000 pe..."

I'm very wide open on how we do voting. My thought was that we were getting so few responses in the polls, I just sought to get more action. And although only about 20 of us post consistently, there may be more skulkers who do read the monthly books. If we want to scale it back, I'm ok with that too.

Being ahead is indeed a curse as well as a blessing. I only had to read 10 of the 23 books this year, but it leaves me time to fit other things in. I don't re-read much, but there are some good ones like Uprooted & Old Man's War I wouldn't mind at all.

I read the first two or three of Old Man's War, then quit because (my usual problem) I could not remember what was going on. So it has my vote because I remember I really liked the ones I read

I've read the whole Old Man's War series, and enjoyed it a lot - the first book is definitely a homage to Heinlein and the first three are all quite strong. I also read starting volumes of two other nominees. Gannon starts strong, but goes downhill quickly with 2nd and 3rd books. McDevitt's initial volume while interesting in its premise I'd cut in half in size

Oleksandr wrote: "I've read the whole Old Man's War series, and enjoyed it a lot - the first book is definitely a homage to Heinlein and the first three are all quite strong. I also read starting volumes of two othe..."

McDevitt captured me with the first book - a flawed but exciting adventure - but I really enjoyed the second. And then for some reason I switched over to the Alex Benedict series and never finished The Academy, although I have the next four books on my shelf. Like Acorn, I read the first Gannon book & own the second. In Old Man's War, I've read the first four and have the last two. The first one is a classic, following the lines of Starship Troopers & The Forever War.

Thanks for all the discussion of these series. I really liked the first couple of Old Man's War, bbut did not make it through the first McDevitt book. I bet, Allan, you switched because it is really hard to tell his two series apart. The names are not memorable enough

I have not read any of the third choice

Kateblue wrote: "I bet, Allan, you switched because it is really hard to tell his two series apart..."

It was a few years ago, but I think it was because I happened to find the first book of the Alex Benedict series on paper at the library. **If** I find something at the library, I pretty much put owned books on hold until I finish. Seeker (book 3) is nominated from that series, so I got that one knocked out. In the meantime, I got 4 more books in The Academy series at the big HPB clearance sale.

Are the Jack McDevitt series (Academy, Alex Benedict) ones that require reading in chronological order or can you read any of them at any time?

Kalin wrote: "Are the Jack McDevitt series (Academy, Alex Benedict) ones that require reading in chronological order or can you read any of them at any time?"

I dont know about Alex Benedict. But I've read all Academy books. I think you need to read in correct order. Things happen that lead on to next book. And people grow older, get married and have children, move on to new jobs, and die, etc. I like book series to flow smoothly, not jump around all over the place.

Kalin wrote: "Are the Jack McDevitt series (Academy, Alex Benedict) ones that require reading in chronological order or can you read any of them at any time?"

Yes, the Alex Benedict series follows chronological order as Cordelia said. They're independent adventures but the characters develop as you go.

I read the Alex Benedict books out of order (and I still haven't read all of them), and while it's completely possible to read them that way, you do lose the character arcs. Especially the first book is pretty different from the rest of them, if memory serves right, and I wish I had read that one first before starting the others.

Old Man's War looks like a runaway choice at this time. I read the first four books in 2018, but I've been thinking that it's such an enjoyable series, I would re-read and complete the final two as well. It's Scalzi at his best, snarky & funny, but not over the top, with a solid story line underneath. Happy with that choice, and I can still read The Academy on the side. In that one, I've read the first two and have the next four on my shelf, all of which are HN listed.

I’ve only read two of the Scalzi series but I’ll happily read the rest. I read one of the Alex Benedict books (Echo?) a number of years ago when it was nominated for a Nebula and found it readable but a little too “contemporary middle class Americans running around the galaxy hundreds of years from now” for my taste. At least that’s what I remember. I haven’t read any of the Gannon books.

Old Man's War re-read sounds fine to me. Lately, I'm often divided on whether to read new stuff or re-read some books I enjoyed earlier and now I'm growing more in favor of the later

Yep, Old Man's War is the runaway winner -- we can basically call it and close the poll now, lol.

Stephen wrote: "I haven’t read any of the Gannon books."

I read the first one & it was ok as an adventure. Simplistically, I saw it as James Bond in space.

Stephen wrote: "...readable but a little too “contemporary middle class Americans running around the galaxy hundreds of years from now” for my taste."

Yeah, it has that feel to it, and the convenience factor is large, but I liked them as adventure escapism.

But the series we are voting on is not Alex Benedict, and I understand they are not connected. Right?

I probably should give McDevitt another try.

As far as I know his two series are not linked. But I’ve only read the one book and I don’t know much about his work.

Kateblue wrote: "But the series we are voting on is not Alex Benedict, and I understand they are not connected. Right?"

Correct, the nominated series for this challenge was The Academy, but I was asking about both since they are both part of the H/N list overall.

I’m really excited to dive into Old Man’s War, I think I might listen to it with my partner during a long car ride in Dec/Jan.

I’m sure this has been mentioned, but can someone remind me what the timing is of this longer series read? Are y’all thinking we will read one book from the series a month?

Rebecca wrote: "I’m sure this has been mentioned, but can someone remind me what the timing is of this longer series read? Are y’all thinking we will read one book from the series a month?."

I don't recall whether it has been codified, but yes, a book per month

Rebecca wrote: "I’m sure this has been mentioned, but can someone remind me what the timing is of this longer series read? Are y’all thinking we will read one book from the series a month?..."

Roughly, yes. It's actually 6 books in 5 months. Assuming Oxford is the mid-year challenge, that would start in June so as to finish in August with the Extremely Long theme. So May-June for the last book, might be some overlap in June.

Rebecca wrote: "I’m really excited to dive into Old Man’s War, I think I might listen to it with my partner during a long car ride in Dec/Jan."

I'm also anxious for a re-read. So much so that I've secured The Forever War from the library to listen to as a prelude. And also to read Forever Free, which is the direct sequel I haven't read.

Allan wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "I’m sure this has been mentioned, but can someone remind me what the timing is of this longer series read? Are y’all thinking we will read one book from the series a month?..."

Rou..."

Oxford isn't a mid-year challenge; it would be the Book of the Month for 3 months in a row June-August, combining Trilogy & the extremely long read monthly reading categories. It has to win the trilogy BOTM vote for this to happen though.

So the Scalzi challenge can run concurrently with it.

I vote foe CS Lewis's Space Trilogy.

I just picked up a copy of McDevitt’s Chindi (Academy series, 2003 Nebula nominee) at the local public library branch’s used book shop. I don’t know when I’ll get to it, but I will sooner or later.

I also got a Nero Wolfe mystery by Rex Stout. It’s been a while since I checked the place out.