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Why God Enables
Would you say we don't have free will to either accept or reject Jesus as Saviour and Lord? (I don't hold to the Calvinist views)
Nancy wrote: "Would you say we don't have free will to either accept or reject Jesus as Saviour and Lord? (I don't hold to the Calvinist views)"Hi Nancy, my take on it is this - The Bible makes it clear that God is sovereign; he calls people and predestines them for salvation. But the Bible also makes clear that we are moral beings with free will, who can be justly held accountable for our choices.
Our limited minds cannot reconcile these two truths, however if we are to hold a Biblical perspective we must hold both things to be true.
It is no surprise that the deep things of God are beyond our understanding, just like some things in nature are. For example, light behaves like a wave and a particle. How can this be? Is it a wave or a particle? It in fact behaves as if it is both to our limited understanding - both are true. So it is with human free will and God's sovereignty.
I agree, our limited minds can not reconcile predestination and free will. How else would we be held responsible for our sins, if we had NO free will? Especially after we're born again. !!
Mod
What did Jesus know from the beginning?
John 6:64-65
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning who did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “ THIS IS WHY I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them .”
What does it take to believe?
ROMANS 10:13 - for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Mod
Hi Nancy, my take on it is this - The Bible makes i..."
* God's election is contingent upon His foreknowledge:
1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father...
* What did God know in His foreknowledge?
John 6:64 - ...For Jesus had known from the beginning who did not believe...
* Why does God enable people to come to Him? Because Jesus KNEW who was going to believe or not.
John 6:65 - He went on to say, “THIS IS WHY I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them .”
Robert wrote: "John 6:64 - ...For Jesus had known from the beginning who did not believe..."Hi Robert, I agree that the Father has foreknowledge of those whom he calls and hence will believe. It also seems reasonable to assume that the Son knows this too, although it seems that the Father does the calling.
I'm not sure the John 6 passage has strong support for Jesus' foreknowledge, since the context suggests Jesus is talking to and about the disciples he had when he was on earth. I think it is a stretch to see this as applying for all time and eternity. Can you think of another scripture that specifically says the Son has this foreknowledge?
As I say, I think it is reasonable to assume that he has, by virtue of him being God and one with the Father, although as Jesus once said, there are also some things that only the Father knows, not even the Son (Matthew 24:36).
Mod
I'm not sure the John 6 passage has strong support for Jesus' foreknowledge ..."
John 6:64 - literally says... "For Jesus had known from the beginning who did not believe...
John 6:66-67 clearly tells us that the context is far more encompassing than just the twelve.
John 6:66-67 - After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. (67) So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”
The Bible literally says that because of what Jesus foreknew, God enables some to salvation.
I have to stick with what the Bible literally says over private interpretations.
Robert wrote: "David wrote: "...seems that the Father does the calling.There are numerous verses and passages in the bible that warn us, the brethren, the born again, of falling away, and of losing our salvation, and choosing to turn away from Jesus altogether, sending ourselves to hell.
Numerous. All addressed to BRETHREN. Born again people with the Holy Spirit in them.
Yes, God does the calling, yes, indeed, He does, and he gives us the faith to believe. But, after that, we are told to endure to the end, because if we don't, we won't be saved. Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 24:13; But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 13:13-And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Hebrews Chapter 3
12 Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
1 Corinthians 9:27 - But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.Hebrews Chapter 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Mod
There are numerous verses and passages in the bible that warn us, the brethren, the born again, of falling away, and of losin..."
Absolutely. Don't you think Jesus knew who would fall away?
Mod
Hebrews Chapter 6
4 For it is i..."
100% agreed. I do not believe that anyone at any time who rejects Jesus will be saved.
Mod
What is the basis for the Father's calling and enabling?
John 6:64-65
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning who did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “ THIS IS WHY I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them .”
ROBERT, are you a CALVINIST?
Also, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But, many fall away after being born again.
Robert wrote: "John 6:64 - literally says... "For Jesus had known from the beginning who did not believe...I have to stick with what the Bible literally says over private interpretations..."
You raise an interesting point about how to correctly handle the word of God Robert. Do you not think that you are applying an interpretation when you read the word of God? Do we not all apply an interpretation?
For example I get the impression that your interpretation of "from the beginning..." in John 6:64 is that this means from creation. But this is not consistent with other scriptures that say that God the Father chose us BEFORE creation (Ephesians 1:4).
Also John uses "from the beginning..." on 3 other occasions, which are clearly not referring to creation, but rather from the beginning of Jesus' ministry:
John 8:25 ‘Who are you?’ they asked. ‘Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,’ Jesus replied.
John 15:27 'And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.'
John 16:4 'I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you,'
Assuming that you agree with my interpretation of these last 3 uses, on what basis do you chose to think that the John 6 use has a different meaning? You may be right, but my point is that the John 6 use is ambiguous, and therefore open to interpretation.
Mod
I believe:
2 Peter 1:20 - "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
If the Bible says something clearly, it is just wrong to make it say something different.
__________
Scripture must interpret Scripture.
Opinions and preconceived ideas are not valid for understanding the Bible.
Mod
I believe exactly this (no private interpretation or personal commentary necessary):
John 6:64 - Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning who did not believe and who would betray him.
You seem to think that God has difficulty with clear communication and that somehow He needs you to translate His Word for Him rightly.
Mod
It would be best if you studied the Greek as well as grammatical context. You would see that these are NOT identical phrases and have different meanings and contexts.
Robert wrote: "David wrote: "You raise an interesting point about how to correctly handle the word of God Robert. Do you not think that you are applying an interpretation when you read the word of God? Do we not ..."Then, believers in Christ will go through the tribulation, and born again Christians can end up apostasizing and sending themselves to Hell. We have choices, we are responsible for those choices.
Robert wrote: "Nancy wrote: "1 Corinthians 9:27 - But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.Hebrews Chapter 6
..."
So, you have to endure to the end to be saved. You can't give up and fall away.
Robert wrote: "It would be best if you studied the Greek as well as grammatical context. You would see that these are NOT identical phrases and have different meanings and contexts..."Yes, I often look at the Greek or Hebrew Robert - it helps to understand the meaning, as you know. Reviewing the Greek I have found:
The phrases very a little, e.g. different words for "from" are used in some cases, but the key word is identical.
John 6:64 "beginning" is "arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent")." (Ref: https://biblehub.com/greek/746.htm)
It is used in the context of the beginning of the world, e.g. Matthew 24:21, but in the same chapter it is also used of the beginning of birth pains (Matthew 24:8). The same word is also used in my other 3 examples of John 8:25, John 15:27 and John 16:4.
In some other uses the author makes what "the beginning" refers to by specify it, but in the above cases we have to infer it from the context. If you still think that John 6:64 is clearly and unequivocally referring to the beginning of the world, then we will have to agree to disagree; it is a small detail.
If you have other verses that show that the Son foreknows all believers, then I would still be interested to see them.
Robert wrote: "Scripture must interpret Scripture.Opinions and preconceived ideas are not valid for understanding the Bible..."
I agree completely Robert! Our aim should simply be to read, understand and obey scripture.
The reason I commented on your original post is that I have been studying the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son foreknowing all believers had not come up in my studies, but I may have just missed it, hence my question about other verses supporting that view.
I simply do not see John 6:64 has being a strong biblical case on its own, for the reasons I have already said. We should not try to base anything as fundamental as the nature of God on a single verse, because otherwise we are in danger of misrepresenting the nature of God, which I'm sure is something that neither of us want to do.
Mod
Me either. Doctrine should not be based on a single verse. If that were the case, you might have a point.
At the same time, what the Bible clearly says should not be invalidated because it contradicts an eisegetical doctrinal preference.
* God's election is routinely stated as based on His foreknowledge.
1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."
Romans 8:29 - "For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son.."
* The Bible repeatedly states that God is omniscient.
Matthew 9:4 - "But Jesus, knowing their thoughts , said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts?"
Matthew 6:8 - "Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. "
John 16:30 - "Now are we sure that thou knowest all things , and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God."
Robert wrote: "God's election is routinely stated as based on His foreknowledge.1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."
Romans 8:29 - "For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son.." ..."
Thanks Roberts, these scriptures confirm that God's foreknowledge, predestination and calling come from God the Father, which was never in doubt in my mind.
The workings of the Holy Trinity is a mystery to us. In more general terms, my studies (incomplete and flawed as they are) have led me to this current understanding:
All things come FROM the Father; THROUGH and FOR the Son; TO the ultimate glory of the Father.
Key scriptures on this, to my mind, are:
1 Corinthians 8:6 - "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
Colossians 1:15,16 - "15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him."
1 Corinthians 15:24 - "Then the end will come, when he [Christ] hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."
Mod
According to YOU, what do you think God foreknew ?
You seem to be saying that God did NOT foreknow that which Jesus Himself said.
So what do you say God foreknew?
I am enjoying reading! You may not see me here much, but I do read. Thanks for sharing. God bless everyone and have a great and blessed Christmas all year round, amen.
Robert wrote: "John 6:64-6564 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning who
did not believe
and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “
THIS IS WHY
I tol..."
AMEN!!!
Mod
Thanks for letting us know you are here. You be blessed as well.
Robert wrote: "According to YOU, what do you think God foreknew ?..."I think that scripture is clear that God foreknew all things; he knows the end from the beginning (before the foundation of the world), including all those chosen for salvation and all that Jesus would say and do.
God is one being in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But that does not mean they all have the same role or all know the same things. As the scriptures you provided show, God the Father foreknows who will be saved. As I previously mentioned, Jesus said that there is at least one thing that the Father knows, that the Son does not:
Matthew 24:36 - ‘But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.'
As I have also previously said, I think that the Son probably also foreknows all that the Father will call, by virtue of being one with the Father. However I do not see John 6:64 giving a strong Biblical case for that. If the Son did foreknow all that would be saved, would we not expect an unequivocal scripture (say from the epistles) to say so? I haven't registered one yet, but that does not mean it does not exist, hence my question at the beginning.
Mod
So, on what basis does God choose people for salvation?
You seem to be saying that it is NOT based on knowing who would or would not believe (like Jesus said it was.)
So, what basis for God's choosing do you believe?
Scripture, please, your private interpretations will not convince me (and should not convince anyone.)
Robert wrote: "So, on what basis does God choose people for salvation?You seem to be saying that it is NOT based on knowing who would or would not believe (like Jesus said it was.)..."
That's a good question Robert! My initial response is to say who knows the mind of God, but the Spirit of God:
1 Corinthians 2:11 - "For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."
However below are some scriptures that I think reveal something of God's ways in this regard, plus a brief commentary, for what it's worth.
1 Peter 1: 1,2 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles, scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance."
God the Father's foreknowledge certainly seems an important aspect of his choosing here. However I do not think this simply means that God sees the future, knows who will believe and then chooses them. That seems far too passive a choice on God's part; choosing what you see will happen anyway is not a true choice. I believe God is completely intentional in whom he chooses, something like this: God foreknows all things; he chooses those whom he wants to save and at the right time he calls them.
Ephesians 1:4-6 - "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will – 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."
There is no mention of foreknowledge here in connection with God's choice, but rather predestination. Why did God choose us before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight? Because it was his pleasure and will, and so that his glorious grace might be praised.
Ephesians 1:11,12 - "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory."
Again the reason given for God's choosing and predestination is the praise of his glory. Why does he choose some and not others? That detail the Bible does not tell us, and therefore we do not need to know. But what we do know is that it is not because of any particular virtue on the part of the chosen:
1 Corinthians 1:27-29 - "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things – and the things that are not – to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him."
Mod
Thanks for your opinion. I asked for Scripture.
So far, I will be agreeing with Jesus and not what you think God's Word means.
Mod
I asked for Scripture.
So far, I am going to continue to agree with Jesus, God the Son, Who clearly tells us the REASON God enables.
but you are entitled to have your opinions
Mod
Sorry, but you are WRONG if you think the passage in Ephesians overrides the words of Jesus.
Don't you think it is pleasing to God when sinners repent and put their faith in Jesus?
It is this foreknowledge that Jesus says is the reason God enables.
As for me, I fully intend to agree with Jesus and not your eisegesis.
Mod
Now who is building a doctrine out of one verse taken out of context and having eisegetical opinions interpreting it.
That passage in Ephesians does NOT invalidate or contradict the words of Jesus.
I fully intend to agree with Jesus and not your opinion.
Mod
Yes, the Bible DOES tell us why!
Just because you REJECT and redefine what Jesus clearly says, does not mean the Bible does not tell us!
John 6:64-65
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning who did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “ THIS IS WHY I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them .”
Robert wrote: "Sorry, but you are WRONG if you think the passage in Ephesians overrides the words of Jesus..."Robert, now I am concerned and confused by your line of discussion. You asked for scriptures and I gave you a number. Because the Ephesians scriptures seem to say something different to what Jesus said, are you saying that we should ignore the Ephesians scriptures? Surely not, because then you would be going against the truth that ALL scripture is inspired by God. Are you saying that John's gospel is more inspired than Paul's letter to the Ephesians?
Assuming that you are not, then surely to handle the word of God correctly, we must seek to reconcile and understand both scriptures as equally true. This is where some level of interpretation comes in. As I have been saying from the beginning, I think there is another way of looking at the John scripture. Since you reject that, then can you please tell me what you understand the Ephesians 1:11,12 scripture to mean?
Robert wrote: "Just because you REJECT and redefine what Jesus clearly says, does not mean the Bible does not tell us!..."Robert, please do not misunderstand me. I do not reject what Jesus said, any more than I would want to reject any part of scripture.
Unfortunately your argument now seems circular to me. I said, the Bible does not tell us why God chooses some, but your response does not answer that question. You are using one scripture to say that God chooses some because the Father enables them. That is an explanation of HOW, not an explanation of WHY.
In my opinion, the John 6 scripture gives us an explanation of HOW; Ephesians 1 tells us more about WHY.
David wrote: "Robert wrote: "Sorry, but you are WRONG if you think the passage in Ephesians overrides the words of Jesus..."Robert, now I am concerned and confused by your line of discussion. You asked for scr..."
Well said. Thank you.
Mod
You are deflecting from the FACTS I presented.
I have NEVER said Ephesians is not valid. NOWHERE does that passage say that God did NOT base His election on His knowing who would believe.
Only your eisegesis comes to that conclusion.
Mod
Yes, the Bible DOES tell us why!
Just because you REJECT and redefine what Jesus clearly says, does not mean the Bible does not tell us!
John 6:64-65
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning who did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “ THIS IS WHY I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them .”
I am not sure which pate of "THIS IS WHY" you want to ARGUE AGAINST
No matter how many times you say that the Bible does NOT tell us...
It does NOT change the fact that the Bible VERY CLEARLY tells us.
Mod
No, I believe exactly what the Bible says, without adding my eisegetical doctrines.
Robert wrote: "John 6:64-6564 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning who did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “ THIS IS WHY I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them .”
I am not sure which pate of "THIS IS WHY" you want to ARGUE AGAINST..."
I think you are misreading the text Robert. According to v64 and 65, Jesus' actual words were:
"Yet there are some of you who do not believe. THIS IS WHY I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."
Jesus' "this is why" is referring to the reason some of his then disciples did not believe - the Father had not enabled them. It does not refer to Jesus' foreknowledge!
The part of v64 in between Jesus' recorded speech is John's commentary. Jesus' knowing who did not believe and who would betray him from the beginning is not related to the "this is why" statement.
The text does not say from the beginning of what, that John is referring to in his commentary. You are reading into the text that John was referring to the beginning of the world; you are making an assumption about that. You might be right, but my point is that John could have also been referring to the beginning of Jesus' ministry, as he clearly does in other places.
It is clearly ambiguous and therefore needs thoughtful consideration, in my view.
Mod
Thank you for your eisegetical OPINIONS but I will believe exactly what the Bible says.
Unlike you, I believe exactly the following with NO opinions, personal commentary, or private interpretations ADDED.
______________________
John 6:64-65
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning who did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “ THIS IS WHY I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them .”
Mod
LOL!!!!
God wrote: John 6:64-65
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning who did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “ THIS IS WHY I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them .”
Robert wrote: "David wrote: "Jesus' "this is why" is referring to the reason some of his then disciples did not believe - the Father had not enabled them. It does not refer to Jesus' foreknowledge!..."LOL!!!! ..."
I seem to process language and understand its meaning a little differently to you Robert, so it feels we have taken our discussion as far as we can.
May the Lord bless you, and may the Spirit of truth guide us into all truth.
Mod
May the Lord bless you, and may the Spirit of truth guide us into all truth..."
I simply chose to believe what the Bible actually says... not what I want it to say.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning who did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “ THIS IS WHY I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them .”
__________
Observations:
* Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe
* This knowledge is why God enables
__________
1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father...
Next time you wonder what God foreknew, remember the words of Jesus in John 6:64-65!