Sci-Fi & Fantasy Girlz discussion

Discuss!
Please don't forget the spoiler tag.

The beginning sequence is difficult to get through, but press on. The "real" story is excellent. Note that book #16 in the series comes out this year, but this first book is stand-alone complete.

Enjoy!

I started reading this one and am loving it so far. Its very different to the usual aliens-invade-earth/colonies-and-are-the-bad-guys or aliens-behave-just-like-humans-but-look-alien-y space operas. In a funny twist humans are the alien force landing on an already populates planet. She does an excellent job on alien psychology. I'm still not too far into it but so far the in-depth psycho-social picture we get of the aliens males up for the lack of blood pumping action.

And (view spoiler)[assassins (hide spoiler)]. Sweet!

I am finished and purchased the next two in the series. It has become quite an obsession, and that's awesome from a book which, based on reviews, I had some reservations about.

Plus it was my first book by the author so I guess I could say I just popped my Cherryh. :D

Alicja wrote: "Plus it was my first book by the author so I guess I could say I just popped my Cherryh. :D "

Yay!

I think you'll enjoy each future encounter.

I don't have time to go re-read this book just now, but I recall loving it, as I do all her books. I find she writes the most realistic alien cultures and psychologies that I've come across, although they always have a basis somewhere in Earth's culture or fauna.
Definitely in my top five favourite authors.

I've read a bit of C.J. Cherryh's work, though not this series. I've read The Faded Sun books, and a few sundries here and there.

I've just started this book, and I'm liking it so far. She does a great job with character; I'd argue she's easily in the Top 5 of the best, if not #1, of SF/F authors when it comes to writing up well-drawn, believable characters. Further, she puts them in strange surroundings and has them react to those things in a sensible way. In fact, I'd say that's the core of her talent. Not just asking "What if?" and answering the question in a broad, general way, but by presenting her answer in a full, personal level. It's not "What would happen if humans could travel faster than light?" but "What would happen if THESE humans could travel faster than light?"

A couple of meta-points (points not having to do directly with the book.)

1. There're 16 books in the series? "Great Caesar's Ghost!" as my grandmother used to say. (She did really say that.) As a middle-aged, childless bachelor living in a rental, that's a bigger commitment than most things in my life.... I try not to read the same author more than once a year or so. It's a guideline, not a rule, and depends on the length of the books, but that many is a good decade-long relationship for me. When someone comes at me with that many books in a series, I feel vaguely how I imagine the groom must feel at a shotgun wedding.

2. A few of the reviews of this book (and the series) focus on the fact that it began as a short story and then was expanded so extensively from there, or that it is "long-winded," or "boring" which makes me a little leery--but not so much of Cherryh's work. A fuller reading of those reviews indicates that the reviewer had/has a lot of preconceptions about SF/F and brought them into the reading experience.

I'm not going to pick on any particular reviewer here on GR, but it is interesting in this case to check out those reviews. An awful lot of the negative ones seem to focus on things that are, in fact, part of the purpose/theme or strengths of Cherryh's writing. If a writer's strength is the thing that a review is critical about then that seems more a personal aesthetic than an objective review. It's like not liking fish because it's not bacon, or coffee because of the caffeine.

Criticism based upon the reviewer's taste is no unusual thing, and each to his or her own, of course, but for some reason that particular brand of criticism seemed to leap out at me in this case.

Your grandmother watched the original Superman on TV?

I agree with your assessment - CJ presents detailed explanations by having her characters experience all the nuance of their strange situations.

The 16th book comes out this month - they've been on a roughly 1-per-year schedule, so it's not like she's "churning them out". I have read them as they were issued, with that long gap in between. I wonder what it would be like to re-read them all in a row.

I read those reviews too, and since I've read my share of boring *cough*We Are Water*cough*, this was the opposite of boring. She let us struggle along with Bren, so it was natural for him to be all confusing going round in circles a bit. He needs a much a constant reminder that they aren't human as we do.

Gary wrote: "Criticism based upon the reviewer's taste is no unusual thing, and each to his or her own, of course, but for some reason that particular brand of criticism seemed to leap out at me in this case."

I've found that to be the case on the vast majority of review. "This author needs an editor" really means "this author didn't write the story I wanted."

A truly substantive review (I shy away from objective when it comes to fiction) is a rare thing of beauty, and if they constitute 1 in a 100, I'd be surprised.

Now, I must beg forgiveness for sticking my nose in here. C.J. Cherryh happens to be the sci-fi author that I most admire and hardly ever read.

Owen wrote: "Now, I must beg forgiveness for sticking my nose in here. C.J. Cherryh happens to be the sci-fi author that I most admire and hardly ever read. "

Don't apologize - fix it! *grin*

It can be difficult to know when "needs an editor" refers to spelling and grammar, or plotting and pacing. A few indie/newbies suffer from the former. A few veterans suffer from the latter.

I often feel like Tim Burton's films "need an editor" in the way I think is the more benign version of that term: a second set of eyes to do an objective reading of an author's work, point out the fat, and maybe even with the authority to trim that fat where the author can't bring him/herself to do it.

However, there are folks who think of sci-fi as, mostly, the stuff of the "pew, pew!" variety, so when they encounter something like Cherryh's work, which has a lot of social interaction between cultures and inner monologues from the protagonist, they are disappointed.

But sometimes a story just doesn't work. I earlier mentioned another book I just read, We Are Water, that stylistically is similar to Foreigner. They are both filled with a lot of internal dialogue, both focus on psychological process and inter-personal relationships, they both progress slowly, etc. Yet I loved one and ended up being bored out of my mind with the other. Sometimes it just seems to me that what works or doesn't work for someone is almost intangible, and when writing a review it can be hard to put that into words so we get something like "this needs an editor" or "it was slow" or "it was dragging" even from reviewers who have read books in the past that are similar but just worked. So a best a review can do it justify their rating, why they liked or disliked the book.

Yes, I was being flip there, to a degree. The context of the "editor: comment usually makes it clear how it was meant. But what I read in reviews much of the time is that (as Gary says) someone just doesn't like the book, but saying "It realty needs an editor" makes them sound "learned".

RE: editors in the sense you (Gary) means are invaluable. Unfortunately, success breeds sloth and often arrogance and artists are allowed to "slip the leash" (the restored director's cut of Lawrence of Arabia I felt did a huge disservice to the original theatrical release).

And yes, some books just don't work, for whatever reason. Personally (beyond mere mechanics), I believe there is "good writing" and "less-good writing" on more than the purely subjective sense, but I cannot define it in general. I can discuss it for a particular book, that's all.

Also, while I have vast admiration for C.J. Cherryh (for much the same reasons Gary mentioned, plus her style, which I found engaging), her stories do not (in general) interest me -- OK, not true: they interest me too much to address in any fiction I have yet encountered. "Aliens" in sci-fi are problematic for me (I don't to hijack this thread so I won't pursue that personal thought). When I want to delve into these issues, I'll read someone like Greg Dening.

Alicja wrote: "But sometimes a story just doesn't work. I earlier mentioned another book I just read, We Are Water, that stylistically is similar to Foreigner. They are both filled wi..."

That's kinda what I'm getting at when it comes to a personal aesthetic. Some folks are absolute rapt by that kind of mannered prose. I reacted in what I suspect was a similar way to Never Let Me Go. Other folks went batty for exactly the kind of thing I didn't appreciate.

Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf?

Me. A little bit.

I mention it because I studied Virginia Woolf in college and... bluh. Not even "blah" but "bluh." I just don't get it. I can perceive the significance, mind you. I see the symbolic nature of her work, and it's role in the novel as a progression in the form. As an intellectual exercise, sure. But I don't feel the core profundity that her aficionados clearly embrace as the basis of her literary canonization. For me, it has no gravitas, but it has gravity. As in the old physics joke: "gravity sucks."

Gary wrote: "Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf?"

I have the same reaction to Tolstoy. In that case, I feel the lack is in me, not Tolstoy (the gentle coaxing of a more brilliant friend shows me this). In other cases (especially where I am more expert), it's just assigning faux profundity to the Chex Press to sooth a shallow and inadequate soul. (Gravity isn't the only thing that sucks.)

My knowledge of Tolstoy is, sadly, lacking. I really should pick up some of his stuff so that my disappointment can come from a more educated, considerate POV.

Gary wrote: "My knowledge of Tolstoy is, sadly, lacking. I really should pick up some of his stuff so that my disappointment can come from a more educated, considerate POV."

Heheh. Well said.

Gary wrote: "My knowledge of Tolstoy is, sadly, lacking. I really should pick up some of his stuff so that my disappointment can come from a more educated, considerate POV."

+1!

A quote from one of my favorite comics of yesteryear captured my feelings exactly: "Now I'm confused on a much higher plane." (I often feel that way.)

Gary wrote: "My knowledge of Tolstoy is, sadly, lacking. I really should pick up some of his stuff so that my disappointment can come from a more educated, considerate POV."

I shudder when I hear the name Tolstoy. Anna Karenina was a horror to read in high school. I don't think I was mature enough to appreciate it then but I can't bring myself to read it now as an adult because back then it literally gave me nightmares.

Alicja wrote: "I shudder when I hear the name Tolstoy. Anna Karenina was a horror to read in high school. I..."

If you finished it, you are stronger person than I am.

Owen wrote: "If you finished it, you are stronger person than I am."

Nope, just a nerd determined to score another A on a report card. The few Bs I received really depressed me so I was willing to go to extremes, like not on reading Anna Karenina but writing a damn 5 page (double spaced with 1 inch margins) essay on the damn thing. I think my dad may still have a copy hidden somewhere in the bottom of a box in the attic...

Alicja wrote: "Owen wrote: "If you finished it, you are stronger person than I am."

Nope, just a nerd determined to score another A on a report card. The few Bs I received really depressed me so I was willing to..."

There can be great strength nerd[ity?]. All I know is I tried to read it around last Christmas, while I was house-sitting for my co-author (thinking two weeks by myself would be adequate motivation). I threw in the towel after ~30 pages.

I want to throw out two things regarding this book now that I'm at about the half-way point.

First, the real world metaphor for the experience of humans in the book would seem to me to be most closely related to the experience of Europeans in Japan during the 19th century Shogunate period. The cultural "otherness" of the aliens, and the struggle to relate seem to use that as a baseline.

Second, there's a "lost in space" quality to the story that I'm finding interesting. Even though our hero has lived on a planet with aliens for many years, they remain a mystery to him, and we experience his learning curve right along with him. I mentioned the TV show Farscape in comments with Alicja, and I think that remains an interesting comparison: lone human amongst aliens, trying to figure out what he should be doing and how his "hosts" think.

Of course, this book isn't filled with the comedic stuff that Farscape was, nor is our hero's main goal to return home (though it does come up) but I think the comparison is apt. In broader strokes, it compares to a whole range of kidnapped, frozen in time, amnesia, etc. stories that are so common in the genre. Her take on it is less overt, but it's got a similar methodology.

Gary, you always make me thing. Now that I am paying attention to it the comparisons are stark. However, I think that these kinds of stories could be very formulaic or imaginative because there are as many stories as [imagined] alien species. And honestly, humans as a species doesn't tend to do well with "otherness" of those different than us. Historically it tends to end up in bloodshed. More advances weapons just means more advanced ways of killing and repressing the "other".

Gary, there are Japanese feudal themes throughout the series.

How do you feel about the numerology and baji-naji aspects?

CJ also wrote the Chanur series that featured one lone human among felines and other space-faring species. I like how CJ presents "other".

Laz wrote: "Gary, there are Japanese feudal themes throughout the series.

How do you feel about the numerology and baji-naji aspects?"

I'm liking all the Japanese elements she's thrown in that I've come across. As often as not they are charmingly subverted. The numerology is, in particular, an astute reference given the history of wasan in Japanese culture.

There's a lot of that stuff in the book. She clearly thought about it pretty extensively. The semi-feudalism of the culture, the relationship to nature, etc. Lots of analogies. Even the tourists that come to visit our protagonist.... That had to be fun to write.

At this point, the differences are standing out a bit more than the similarities. That is, the existence of firearms amongst the Atevi is an interesting difference. A note about stagnation, isolationism and empire maybe? Hmm.

In general, though, I think it's important to see this book as an introduction to a series. The humans seem strangely naive to me. That may be Bren's character more than humans in general, but if anything makes me look askance it's the way Bren seems to project human emotions or seek them out in the Atevi, even though they often specifically say they don't feel that way.

I think another thing she did was try to differentiate between the humans of her book and the humanity of Earth--or us as readers. So, this book is an introduction that has an introduction with an introduction. (The first chapters about the colony ship being lost and arriving on their new--unexpected--home.) She had to separate humanity from the culture that launched them into space. Hence, all that stuff about the guild and the struggles to even land on the planet.

As an American, I'm sure I fetishize technology and progress, and I personally almost certainly do so more than is the average amongst my fellow Americans. She had to make some efforts to get away from... let's call it "American positivism" shall we? So, she spent some time giving us an isolated human culture several steps removed from where it originated, and then put that version of humans, stripped down somewhat, into contact with her aliens.

It's well thought out. It does sometimes frustrate when it comes to the particulars of Bren's reactions, but I'm confident that was purposeful on Cherryh's part.

And Gary again says all the things I am thinking but in a much more coherent and thought out response than my brain could ever compose. How do you do it Gary?

Alicja wrote: "And Gary again says all the things I am thinking but in a much more coherent and thought out response than my brain could ever compose. How do you do it Gary?"

I know it's itchy, but don't scratch at the plug installed in the back of your neck. Touching it causes static in the thoughtstream.

Gary wrote: "I know it's itchy, but don't scratch at the plug installed in the back of your neck. Touching it causes static in the thoughtstream."

Ooh, do you get dream reception also? That must be freakily entertaining. I've always hoped humans would invent a machine that could record our dreams, sadly I only remember bits and pieces of mine.

I just started the 3rd book in this series. It is turning out into a bit of an obsession for me. Since from what I've read, this series is organized into a string of trilogies, I figured I'll try to slow down before starting the next sequence. And believe it or not they keep getting more and more psychologically complex. I feel like Alice going down the alien rabbit hole.

Interview with Ms. Cherryh about her Foreigner series:

http://bookyurt.com/scouting/intervie...

She mentions the Borgia court as one of her inspirations, which I would not have thought of off the top of my head, but I can see it with her having mentioned it. The looming threat of assassination, particularly by poison, makes that apt.

Gary wrote: "Interview with Ms. Cherryh about her Foreigner series:

http://bookyurt.com/scouting/intervie...

She mentions the Borgia court as one of her inspirations, whi..."

Very interesting Gary, thanks for that link.

Finished this off last night. Vedy intreztink....

To me, it read very much as an introduction. I might have been influenced by finding out how long a series this is, but there's an awful lot of groundwork being set up here, and the denouement of this installment reads more like a pause to take a breath than a full-fledged conclusion. She sets up a whole range of dynamics and leaves them relatively open-ended. The return of the (view spoiler)[ship that dropped of humanity (hide spoiler)] being probably the most obvious, but there are huge potentialities regarding the interaction of humans and Atevi which remain wide open by the end of this installment. (Given the aforementioned (view spoiler)[return of the ship (hide spoiler)] that really should even be human-human-Atevi interaction....)

Where I think some readers might have been disappointed in this book is in humanity's relatively minor role. From what I've read of Cherryh's work, she isn't interested in a sort of Star Wars human-dominated world. Humanity isn't assumed to be the guiding power of the universe, nor is humanity on some manifest stellar destiny. Rather, humanity is along for the ride, holding on, and more or less adapting, but having to deal with aliens rather than expect them to conform to human (if not largely Western European) standards.

There are a few points in this book that I'd quibble about. It *is* an introduction and as such Bren's role is as much narrative voice as leading man, but from time to time his naivete seems artificial and forced. It's there for a reason, of course. Bren has to be a kind of innocent, because we the readers have to learn things at the same time he does. However, that contrasts badly with the fact that by the time the main portion of the book takes place, humans have been "settled" on Mospheira for centuries, and Bren himself had dedicated much of his previous life, education and effort to learning about Atevi culture and thought. So, when he stumbles over concepts like the Atevi idea of "trust" and "betrayal" that's in the book because we the readers have to struggle with it--but Bren would be in a very different position. He's a highly trained and placed diplomat in a role more significant than, say, a small country's ambassador to the U.N.

Further, he's very trusting of his Atevi hosts. He does speculate that his mail is being withheld when he doesn't get it for days, but his concern mostly appears to be with the entertainment he loses from not being able to skim through the catalogs. There isn't a communication system equivalent to our world, but these days it's hard to get people to even put down their cell phones. Imagine how "wired" a space faring culture would be--even when planet-bound and dealing with a less technologically advanced culture.

Again, probably couldn't pull that off and keep the story from being revealed. After all, if Bren had a communication chip in his head (which is how I'd do it if I were in charge of human-alien diplomatic corp. in an lost/abandoned space colony) then story would be quite short. They probably don't have that kind of tech in the book, of course, but my overall point is that Bren is more annoyed than freaked out by his communication "problems." Try to take a cell phone from a 16-year-old and you'll see how odd that is. It didn't break, but did strain my sense of disbelief.

Overall, though, I really love the theme and tone of this one. Cherryh has a profound sense of character and she writes in a field when character is often expressed by the color of the laser bolts emitted by a character's weapon.... Her use of alien cultures creates as much of a character study as a speculative "what if" novel, and it's worth reading for that alone.

I disagree with your comment about the mail. I read frustration and helplessness into it. Like making the comment about not being able to look through his catalogs was not because he was annoyed at not looking through his catalogs but because that was the most inane thing he could focus on so he didn't actually have a freak out (since he seemed on the verge of one through at least half the book).

I agree more with your comment regarding him being naïve regarding the Atevi culture but I think there is a purpose to that. No amount of reading and study can really prepare us for vastly different cultures, even in our world where we are all human. In the second book she gets more into it, but there she discusses all the things human scholars have gotten it wrong. And despite him being on the island for some time now (a year, two? can't remember), I think he went through a sort of honeymoon period. He was excited about the job, decided he wasn't going to be like Wilson, and walked around with blinders on. In the second book he finally admits he's been anthropomorphizing the Atevi with human qualities because he desperately wanted to find them in there.

I think its like us studying a different culture we are excited about... Bren was excited about the Atevi, he romanticized them along with getting a whole lot of misinformation from scholars. Then he went there, all naïve and excited, ready to make a difference and get it "right" where the other paidhi have gotten it "wrong." I even think some of the Atevi close to him played along and perpetuated his illusion to keep him naïve and easier to manipulate. And then all this happened and suddenly Bran gets blindsided, everything he was certain he knew falls apart, and his mind can't deal with everything at once so he gains his new understanding through sweat and blood and pain, torturously slowly. At least that's how I saw it...

I picked up the next in the series, Invader, the other day. I normally do this thing where I avoid reading the same author twice in a year, but it's much more of a guideline than a rule, and in this case, the series is less episodic than a massive, segmented novel--at least so far. The action picks up pretty much right after the end of the previous installment. There is a break, but it's fairly well glossed over.

So far, in this installment, she's already touched on a few ideas that hadn't occurred to me at the end of the last one. For instance, the relative loyalties of the two (view spoiler)[human factions now that the ship has returned (hide spoiler)]. She did set it up with the split of the pilot/crew faction from those who wanted to get down to the planet, but by the end of the last novel--and given the title of this one--I was half expecting this installment to be a kind of inverted "Mars Attacks!" with humanity as the little squeaky aggressors.

Gary - note that this series tends to run in connected trilogies (up to #17 now).

Laz wrote: "Gary - note that this series tends to run in connected trilogies (up to #17 now)."

Good to know. I may get "stuck" reading the third installment before I get to what feel like a more "natural" stopping point.

I often "see" books as movies, but I think I was rather slow on the uptake on this one. A few thoughts occur to me, however, as I delve into the second installment.

The whole LotR/Hobbit saga has given an awful lot of credence to having characters of drastically different sizes on screen at the same time, or through careful editing. I think they could pull that off these days for an adaptation of this series without too much strain.

Set designs would be amusing, but could border on the ridiculous. What I mean by that is that the furniture, buildings, accoutrement that Bren deals with would all be over-sized to him. So, things like being handed a gun, or crawling into a bed would look slightly off. Given the size differences it wouldn't be like watching a toddler crawl into bed with his/er parents, but there would be moments when everything would just appear (from the human audience's POV) 20% or so larger than they should be. If they did it right, that could actually be an amusing visual gag.

"Finished" the second in the series, Invader, today. I say "finished" because clearly I'm not finished. The way this one ends [no-spoiler], I'll need to pick up the next one sooner rather than later....