Victorians! discussion

Summary

Diana learns the truth about her mother and her miserable marriage to her father.

John struggles with his love for Diana but finally confesses. To Diana, he is only a cousin and a friend, and so the revelation makes her angry.

Diana and John meet again at a ball. Both are uncomfortable in each other's presence, but John makes it evident that it's all or nothing with him. Either Diana loves him or not. There won't be any in-between relationship between the two.

Madeleine, Lady Verelst, is following the footsteps of those shameless married women who take the marital position and liberty to entertain single men. She is learning subtle ways to dupe her husband and encourage Archibald Tempest’s attention.

Diana comes to realize that although she considers John as only a cousin, she doesn't want him to pay attention to other women. A chance hearing that John might marry one Lady Fane makes her finally realize that she had loved John all along. The mining accident and John being one of the rescuing party puts Diana in agitation. She suffers greatly fearing for John's safe return. This also serves as another solid proof to her of her love for him.

John decides to invite Diana and Mrs. Courteney to the hunting ball to decide once and for all his fate with her.

The theme of love continues in this section as Diana and John battle with their emotions.

Additionally, the recurrent theme of religious hypocrisy was also in play. Mary Cholmondeley shows how religious concepts are turned and twisted to personal advantage. Religious concepts are used to create false images of oneself all the while committing sins behind that veil. Lady Verelst is a great example.

For those with the 3 volumes editions:

Week 4: Ch 22-28 = ch. 2.9 to ch. 3.1

And for those without: it is worth remembering, I think, where in a volume a chapter is placed; e.g. that the last chapter of this week's segment opens the third and last volume.

’ Far away, the steep ridge of Hambleton and the headland of Sutton Brow stood out against the evening sky.’

This is a spectacular area of the North York Moors which overlooks a vast plain looking towards York. ‘Sutton Brow’ is now known as Sutton Bank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton_...

https://www.northyorkmoors.org.uk/dis...

thank you for the hint, Trev!

John and Di went together down the steep path through the wood, across the park, over the village beck, and up the low hollowed steps into the churchyard.

I followed part of their path in google street view of East Gilling. The "village beck" is still there (I did not know the word "beck" - it must be related to the German "Bach" = brook), the steps to the churchyard, the churchyard, the church.

I admit I am puzzled by the last sentence of that paragraph:
Overleigh was a primitive place.
What is primitive about it?

sabagrey wrote: "thank you for the hint, Trev!

John and Di went together down the steep path through the wood, across the park, over the village beck, and up the low hollowed steps into the churchyard.

I admit I am puzzled by the last sentence of that paragraph:
Overleigh was a primitive place.
What is primitive about it?..."

I took the use of ‘primitive’ as an association with Overleigh’s mediaeval ancestry, as if some parts had not changed since the eleventh or twelfth centuries.

I liked your idea of following their journey on SteetView.

Trev wrote: "I took the use of ‘primitive’ as an association with Overleigh’s mediaeval ancestry, as if some parts had not changed since the eleventh or twelfth centuries."

ah, thank you ... "primitive" in that sense sounds like a reasonable interpretation. (my native tongue does tend to interfere sometimes, despite much experience reading English)

The scene when John and Diana were sitting on the log looking out over the darkening landscape was electrifying. No wonder Diana was so shocked when John put his hand over hers as she rested it on her knee. John’s revelation was the explosion that breached her defensive calmness and self control. Outwardly she did remain fairly calm, but beneath that facade her emotions have remained in turmoil from the moment that happened.

What confused Diana was that she was unable to treat John in the same way as all the other suitors she had had to deal with before him. Not knowing that she loved him, it was her inability to manage his protestations of love that angered her, rather than John himself.
She even pleaded with him for a return to some sort of friendship so that they could smile and laugh together.

I loved this quote regarding Diana’s confusion.

‘ And day after day she watched the autumn leaves drop from the trees into the water, and there was a great silence in her heart, and underneath the silence a fear—or was it a hope? She knew not.’

Her final realisation that this thing called ‘love’ was nothing like she expected, gradually dawned on her and then was fully confirmed by the mining accident. it was described exquisitely and with such perception.

The Archie and Madeleine affair was such a contrast to John and Diana. Both are models of the insincerity that was so rife amongst the society circles they frequented. The fancy dress ball was a perfect exhibition of this as was Lady Verelst’s management of her husband and sudden disappearances. It’s almost a question of who will stoop the lowest with those two. Whatever happens, a scandal seems just around the corner and could Diana become an innocent victim of that unscrupulous pair?

Cholmondeley does not have much pity for Mr. Goodwin, the man who lost both his hands while rescuing John - it is never again mentioned. Here he serves as exemplification of a scathing, timeless description of the bystander, the born "adherent", who fights change until it becomes the new normal:

There will always be those who will stand aside and coldly regard, if they cannot crush, the struggle and the heartbreak of the pioneers, and then will enter into the fruit of their labours, and complacently point in later years to the advance of thought in their time, which they have done nothing to advance, but to which, when sanctioned by time and custom and the populace, they will adhere.

(oh don't we know them ... the deniers of the climate crisis, the delayers of climate action, those who want to see climate activists in prison, ...those who "don't look up" )

Piyangie wrote: "The theme of love continues in this section as Diana and John battle with their emotions. "

I would add the theme of marriage. There's Di in one chapter who is shaken by John's confession, angry and frightened, because she sees the idea of marriage looming up which she equals with "to give up everything":

Glamour dropped dead. Marriage remained. To become this man's wife; to merge her life in his; to give up everything into the hand that still held hers ...

She was horribly frightened

And right in the following chapter, we get a view of Madeleine's marriage, a few months in:

But in this class of union there is generally one item which is found almost intolerable, namely, the husband.

As long as he had remained an invoice accompanying the arrival of coveted possessions, she had felt only a vague uneasiness about him. Directly he became, after the wedding, a heavy bill demanding cash payment "to account rendered," she had found that the marriage market is not a very cheap one after all.

Madeleine has walked into her marriage with eyes firmly shut, while Diana looks ahead - and is frightened.

Trev: I too enjoyed the subtle transformation of Diana's feelings for John and how it's beautifully communicated to us by Cholmondeley.

sabagrey: Yes, we could add that theme as well. There was Madeleine's marriage and Diana's contemplations on possible marriage. I was also struck by Madeleine's false moral scruples and piety. And Mary Cholmondeley was exposing the false image of Victorian upper-class marriages. Most of them were contracted purely on material wealth on the part of a man and the external beauty of a woman. And since there is no love between them, they seek love and passion elsewhere.

As to Mr. Goodwin, why did I feel that Cholmondeley had suddenly made him a puritan? Before the accident, I thought he was a liberal-minded man who would strike a close bond with John for life (not the sort of dependency and gratitude bond that was formed between them). But afterward, he was portrayed as a different character altogether, or so I felt.

I was surprised by this statement from Diana who was talking to her grandmother about the partygoers after the fancy dress ball.

(Grandmother)’ "You don't mind being disliked by these creatures, do you, Di?" "
Yes, granny, I think I do. I believe, if I only knew the truth about myself, I want every one to like me; and it ruffles me because they make round eyes, and don't like me when their superiors often do."

This is more of a Madeleine statement than one coming from from Diana. Could it be just another example of Diana’s confused and unhappy situation after John’s revelation?

Piyangie wrote: "As to Mr. Goodwin, why did I feel that Cholmondeley had suddenly made him a puritan? Before the accident, I thought he was a liberal-minded man who would strike a close bond with John for life (not the sort of dependency and gratitude bond that was formed between them). But afterward, he was portrayed as a different character altogether, or so I felt."

I too feel that Cholmondeley "abused" his character to make her criticism of a certain kind of religion stick to someone. The character got some attention in the beginning and was painted in detail, but then he became flat and cartoonish.

Trev wrote: "Could it be just another example of Diana’s confused and unhappy situation after John’s revelation?"

I was surprised, too ... so un-Di-like. I think she was beginning to feel driven into a corner: she knew that only John understood her fully, that there was no alternative to him, but that he refused her friendship.

Piyangie wrote: "And Mary Cholmondeley was exposing the false image of Victorian upper-class marriages."

She goes very much further in exposing what marriage means for a woman:

But women who know something of life—of the great demands of marriage—of the absolute sacrifice of individual existence which it involves—when they begin to tremble beneath the sway of a deep human passion suffer much …

Some natures, and very lovable they are, give all, counting not the cost. Others, a very few, count the cost and then give all.

It was quite brutal to fling marriage as the "absolute sacrifice of individual existence" into the face of Victorian society, and to talk of the high "cost" to a woman - when marriage was still seen as the ideal and natural female "career path".

Here is a map showing the location of (Overleigh) castle and the topography of the land around it.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/g/...

It shows how it sits on top of a ‘scar’ crag that runs east west across the landscape. The village of Gilling with its beck and church are fairly close. The railway line (now disused) in the valley below was mainly used to carry freight, usually coal, and opened in 1853.

Anyone interested in the history of the station and its use might want to read about it here.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/g/...

Trev wrote: "The railway line (now disused) in the valley below was mainly used to carry freight, usually coal, and opened in 1853."

One does not normally pay much attention to such details in Victorian novels - but it strikes me sometimes how good, frequent, and close at hand railway connections were.

just one example from North and South: there appears to be an hourly train service from London to Oxford - as early as the 1850ies!

... So many railway lines were closed and destroyed for the sake of road transport - all over Europe. It is a pity - it would be terrific if we still had all that infrastructure to reduce carbon emissions from traffic.

sabagrey wrote: "Trev wrote: "The railway line (now disused) in the valley below was mainly used to carry freight, usually coal, and opened in 1853."

One does not normally pay much attention to such details in Vic..."

Yes I totally agree - in fact some of the closed lines in the UK are being reopened (but not enough). For example a cross-country route between Oxford and Cambridge. Also some smaller stations are being reopened on lines, especially in Wales. One of the biggest reasons is to to try and reduce air pollution due to congested roads.

Adding to local info - here is a hint to place the book in time, namely:

"The remains of the Dean of Gloucester," continued Mr. Garstone, "will be interred at Gloucester Cathedral on Friday next."

Henry Law (29 September 1797 – 25 November 1884) was Dean of Gloucester from 1862 until his death. (wikipedia)

That brings us to 1884; the following winter was among a series of cold ones, as far as I could find information. And there was a general election in 1885, only not in spring.

There is a discrepancy with another "datable" fact in the book (see my psosting in the Background thread); so maybe we are supposed not to take the time stamps too literally.

sabagrey wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "And Mary Cholmondeley was exposing the false image of Victorian upper-class marriages."

She goes very much further in exposing what marriage means for a woman:

But women who kno..."

And some females, like Madeleine, willingly accept that "career path" so they can live comfortably. Some may be loyal and dutiful to their husbands after they marry for money. But there are hypocrites like Madeleine who, while pretending to be virtuous and full of religious piety, are in truth, unfaithful to their husbands. This was the true yet ugly side of some of the upper-class Victorian marriages. I feel Mary Cholmondeley strongly felt the need to expose this and challenge the "false image" that some Victorian marriages presented. In such a society, women like Diana are placed in a dilemma. They are too individualistic to yield and obey completely to a husband without love and affection, yet, it is the only "career path" for them to live comfortably unless some independent income is settled on them or they earn a living (which is impossible to society ladies).

I love how Cholmondeley shows, in very few words, from whose perspective a passage is narrated, and with what feelings, e.g. John:

She was positively in the house.

which echoes the
Di was at Overleigh. …
Di was really at Overleigh. …
from ch. 19 = 2.6.

and Di:

They came and went, and skated and laughed, and wore beautiful furs, especially Lady Alice Fane, but they had no independent existence of their own.

This “especially Lady Alice Fane” is such a typical hint at a whole world of feeling which is never made explicit, and it need not be.

(have I already said that I love this novel? - in Cholmondeley's style, it’s not necessary ;-))

I like Chalmondeley's description of that time in young life when our goals are suddenly intruded upon by the overwhelming presence of love:

"Who has not experienced, almost with a sense of traitorship to his own nature, how the noblest influences at work upon it may be caught up into the loom of an all-absorbing personal passion, adding a new beauty and dignity to the fabric, but nevertheless changing for the time the pattern of the life?"

And a question for everyone: How does the wager make sense if there is no time limit stated ?

Brian wrote: "And a question for everyone: How does the wager make sense if there is no time limit stated ?"

The time limit is the death of either of them - John or the Colonel. As long as the Colonel lives to inherit (and to pay), killing John makes sense.

OK, thanks.