The Sword and Laser discussion

Probably my fave part of the last podcast was when Tom was looking at my thread on Six Wakes. He looks at a followup post and says something to the effect of "that's long." Moi? You don't say! Why, that's...that's...pretty much exactly how I write!

And, overthink a book? My favorite thing to do! So here's some overthinking on Elric. Jump in! Agree! Contradict! Provide an entirely different POV! Let's overthink for the sheer fun of it.

Alright, Elric. As I've said elsewhere, I felt an instinctive desire to avoid this property as a young'un. It wasn't the grimdark - got plenty of that in Thomas Covenant and my fave superhero, Warlock, is at least partially based on Elric. So what's the difference?

For all their faults, can't say those two have human sacrifice casually done as the "eternal champion" seems to be just fine with. And let's not forget the cannibalism! Carving up a person and feeding him to your treasonous cousin is, er...thoroughly disgusting. And then the amoral Melnibonians, dedicated only to the pleasure of the self, consequences to others be damned. Elric makes a sop to fighting against this, but it's just a smidge. Bring on battle and let the sword suck out souls! Yeee hah! But make sure it's nominally bad people, altho these sure seem to be in abundance in situations Elric seeks out.

I find other aspects grating. Melnibone ruled the world for ten thousand years. O...kay. Yeah, that's the entire span of human history. I find overlong timeframes in Fantasy to be offputting. And the silly continues with the flowery names. I mean, "Yyrkoon," really? I'd find it more interesting if the Young Kingdoms crashed into Melnibone with technological craft. The whole thing presumes a world where technology is suppressed in favor of magic. Which I guess is the premise. But zzzzzz.

Welp, Moorcock has made oodles of money doing stories on the very topics that leave me cold. The series is clearly popular. Lots of people like this. Just not me. Oh, I didn't hate it. Some decent action along with the pieces I dislike. My book has the four stories and my big Christmas read isn't in yet, so I went on to the next story. After reading a Christmas novella and concurrent with another Christmas novella.

It's just that the violent dystopian world of Elric is offputting to me and I wouldn't seek it out. Other people find it...I'm guessing, but probably stark, detailed worldbuilding, interesting secondary world. Well anyway, now I know what the fuss is about. Probably I'll finish out the four-story collection. Unless something more engaging comes along.

I read the comic version of the first story and the story seems to have the same plot points. It was... not my cup of tea. Elric is weak, Yrkoon is cartoonish and too many things are solved via a deus ex machina maneuver. And the end? Sigh. No.

John (Taloni) wrote: "I find overlong timeframes in Fantasy to be offputting. And the silly continues with the flowery names. I mean, "Yyrkoon," really?"

This is one of the pieces of the book that really grated on me a surprising amount considering how short of a novel it actually was. Everything is so pretentious. They couldn't have ruled for 100 years or 1000 years, it's obviously 10,000 because more is better. But then the book really isn't imbued with any sense of history despite this time scale because apparently almost nothing has changed in all those years.

And the names of people and places... Why can't he mention a city without out saying "The Dreaming City Imryrurr" or a ship can't be a ship it has to be "The Golden galleon whatever," or even at one ridiculous point "The Ship which was once the ship which went on land and water and now only went on water" which is horrifying.

Elric is presented as pretty much the best of the worst. That aspect I found interesting. Being the least depraved person in an evil society is one of those things we struggle with in real life — look at America’s founders for perfect examples. In “all men are created equal”, the “white” is assumed, and women are excluded from the jump. But other than that, pretty forward-thinking!

Elric is sort of like that. For those who’ve read further in the series, does he continue on a path to redemption?

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Sudden (and very long) unrelated memory from high school about Thomas Jefferson, feel free to skip as it’s not pertinent: (view spoiler)[In history class, or maybe American Civ, I forget exactly, we had a debate set up: “Who did more for their country, Thomas Jefferson or Joseph Stalin?” (The USSR was still a thing then, with no end in sight. Who knew that it would be gone within a decade? Not us!) It was 3 guys against 3 gals. (Including my ex-girlfriend.)

My team got Jefferson, and I assumed this would be a slam dunk. But those girls came out swinging. They went right after Jefferson’s hypocrisy about owning slaves and his fathering children with them. They also did what nowadays we call “Oppo Research” and had defenses prepared for Stalin’s transgressions, including somehow justifying his murder of a million of his own countrymen by comparing it to slavery. My defenses — and they were all mine, because my two co-debaters hadn’t done the work (one just sat there doodling the entire time, not even participating) — my defenses were steamrolled. We got crushed and we lost the debate.

Incredibly valuable lesson for me. Come out fighting and don’t let up, and spin, spin, spin. Dave the Doodler also blamed their win on being attractive girls wearing slightly-too-short Catholic uniform skirts, which might have been a factor, but the truth is that they simply outmaneuvered us and cut us down at the knees. Brilliant strategy, frankly.

And, not to be forgotten, they worked together as a team, bolstering each other’s comments. I did most of the heavy lifting and Rob kind of floundered, while Dave was utterly disengaged. They came across as competent and knowledgeable, which was a powerful asset.

Like I say, really valuable learning experience for me. (hide spoiler)]

I pretty much agree with everything John said about the gruesomeness. Moorcock tries to explain, or justify it, since Melnibone people aren’t “human.” Not sure if that works.

Seth wrote: "But then the book really isn't imbued with any sense of history despite this time scale because apparently almost nothing has changed in all those years."

Technological, social, medical etc change over Egypt's 3,000 year rule wasn't swift. It did occur, but not at the pace we have seen in the last few centuries.

Stability isn't always a great motivator for change.

Seth wrote: "...the book really isn't imbued with any sense of history despite this time scale because apparently almost nothing has changed in all those years..."

Lol great point 🤣🤣

Trike wrote: "...really valuable learning experience for me..."

Lol your Jefferson/Stalin debate story is hysterical! 🤣🤣 Thank you for sharing!

My problem with this book is that it is a completely unnecessary origin story added on later for profit. Brings nothing to the stories.

I also found the stories lack depth making them perfect as frameworks for adaptation.

The fight between Elric and his sword is the main attraction to the est of the tales. TLDR the sword always gets fed.

Trike wrote: "...For those who’ve read further in the series, does he continue on a path to redemption?"

To some extent, yes, although he is still Elric and still oft-driven by anger, despair and a need for revenge. He doesn't become "a good guy" in the classic sense, he continues to do what he feels is necessary, not necessarily choices a good person would make.

Major spoilers here. (view spoiler)[Its a different trope than I think we see nowadays where there is a lot more of a nod given to free agency than in Moorcock's stories. The Eternal Champion is doomed by fate to fight against chaos and evil but he doesn't serve law and good, he ultimately serves balance. And its a pretty shitty role to be in. He stumbles through life, trying to avoid conflict, sometimes trying to do what's best for himself and other times trying to do what's "right." But his inherent weakness makes him reliant on his sword and on the ages-old alliances with evil gods that were forged by his ancestors. Not surprisingly, this continues to cause more trouble than it solves. He eventually gives up Stormbringer but then has to take it up again. More people close to him die but in his role as The Eternal Champion he does, ultimately, bring about something which is good, and he seems okay with that. (hide spoiler)]

Seth wrote: "And the names of people and places... Why can't he mention a city without out saying "The Dreaming City Imryrurr" or a ship can't be a ship it has to be "The Golden galleon whatever,""
Its a deliberate convention. Moorcock makes no bones about the fact that he is not a world builder. He said in one interview something to the effect that, "I have no interest in the GNP of Melnibone. Other writers may care, I do not."

He doesn't create places to stand alone, he creates them as a reflection of his character's state of mind. The names are meant to evoke that state. The descriptions build atmosphere, not a real, functioning world. There is an entire set of stories on Tanelorn, the city of eternal rest and peace, given to neither Law nor Chaos. But its really about the mindset that Elric has, trying to find peace and respite from who he is, grasping it for a short time but ultimately losing it as fate steps in to put him back on his path.

To be fair, you don't have to like it, but it is at the center of what Moorcock was trying to do when he was editor of New Worlds. It cause a lot of controversy but he was trying to open up SF&F to new types of stories.

Oaken wrote: "Seth wrote: "He doesn't create places to stand alone, he creates them as a reflection of his character's state of mind.""..."

Thanks for this point. I could certainly sense that there was a big mood about the whole thing - I suppose I could see how he sort of substituted "vibes-building" for "world-building" and thus had a point for the stuff that I was really bouncing off of. But yeah, I didn't like it.

There are definitely authors who build stories that seemed designed to make readers feel specific things - a lot of horror for example, or those Colleen Hoover books that inspire TikToks of people reading them and crying. Maybe there's some of that in here - everything is in the service of a sort of overall mood. But reading that stuff sometimes makes me feel I'm being manipulated or something, I'm feeling what the author wants me to feel. Being told a story and finding a connection with a world or character feels better to me - more of a partnership between author and reader - though I suppose that's just another sort of more subtle manipulation.

Yeah, this is definitely not Hard Fantasy where the world makes sense and everything has rules. It’s old school magic like Tolkien where stuff happens by author fiat.

Xpost from Discord: Fortress of the Pearl is really quite superior to the first story. If anyone has the book with all four, I recommend going on at least to this one. I can see why Gaiman was impressed. For now I'm going on to the next as my Christmas read of the Connie Willis antho steadfastly refuses to come in off library hold. Soul sucking sword for Christmas reading is a little...different...but what the heck.

Trike wrote: "Elric is presented as pretty much the best of the worst. That aspect I found interesting. Being the least depraved person in an evil society is one of those things we struggle with in real life — l..."

I enjoyed your aside and my head connon is that you did the thing with our very own Rob and Tassie Dave (the doodler, apparently - you should be ashamed Tassie).

I have nothing much to add to the duscussion. I read the book years ago and found it insufferably pretentious. I can't remember much besides being very very bored.

Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: "Tassie Dave (the doodler, apparently - you should be ashamed Tassie)."


I'm not old enough to have gone to school with Trike.

He's really old.

Tassie Dave wrote: "Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: "Tassie Dave (the doodler, apparently - you should be ashamed Tassie)."


I'm not old enough to have gone to school with Trike.

He's really old."

Look, time travel was involved, it was a whole thing. It really takes it out of you, hence the wrinkles.

I know this is the way of much of older fantasy, but man did it ever lack female character development. Not like the other characters were oh-so-developed, but the lone woman in here is just there to be the "love" interest and to be rescued by Elric and tortured by Yrkoon. Yuck.

It does sound like Elric gets a bit more interesting while he and his sword go adventuring and he tries so hard to master his sword, but I'll never really know because I'm not reading them (even though my edition contains however many more books). Somewhat mystified by this series' loyalists.

^ Yeah, fair criticism. FWIW the second book has a significant female protagonist, although it also features a female character that needs rescuing. I'm partway through the third story, which has...a female character treated as a prize, who needs rescuing.

FWIW the second story may be worth your time. (Fortress of the Pearl.) It seems to have partly inspired Gaiman and The Dreaming. Had the story appeared after Sandman I would have thought the opposite. Good use of dream imagery.

Trike wrote: "Look, time travel was involved, it was a whole thing. It really takes it out of you, hence the wrinkles"..."

Time travel gets us all in the end.

It’s travelling space-like distances that is tricky.

I like the fact that Elric transcends the Sword & Sorcery genre and later becomes political commentary, which may only be relevant to UK residents in the 80s and 90s .

I for one remain a fan of the White Wolf. These books are the origins of many clichés, rather than being clichéd.

John (Taloni) wrote: "FWIW the second story may be worth your time. (Fortress of the Pearl.)... Good use of dream imagery.."

I wrote in my review of the second book The Fortress of the Pearl that it was like the movie Inception meets Alice in Wonderland with a little Gene Wilder's Willy Wonka thrown in lol. (I haven't read Gaiman's The Dreaming so I couldn't compare)

It occurs to me that the lack of character depth has perhaps allowed people to read into Elric things which aren’t there. Humans are really good at coming up with explanations for things when we don’t have ready answers.

Even though Moorcock gives plenty of explanations for Elric’s actions — at least in the small portion I’ve read — he doesn’t really do a deep dive into Elric’s motivations. Not a lot of introspection on his part. Elric just has ideas, fully formed, but not a great variety of them.

That allows readers to project stuff onto the character. Combine that with the other appealing bits, such as being the best of a bad lot, going on kickass adventures, and, not the least, just looks absolutely cool with one of the all-time great fantasy weapons, I think goes a long way to explaining his appeal over the years. He’s the bad boy with a heart of gold we all kinda want to be.

He’s also just so *different* from the usual Epic Fantasy hero. By design he’s the anti-Conan. Sickly, frail, slightly demonic, he lacks all the elements Kull, Aragorn, Tarzan, John Carter, Doc Savage, et al, have in abundance.

I mean just look at the incredible artwork the character has inspired. He’s arguably bigger than the stories he’s come from, much like Darth Vader.

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I better stop here, but I could go on. How’m I doing, John? Have I satisfied the remit of overthinking this? 😆

Finished the fourth story. After finding some redeeming parts of the second and third stories, this one is just awful.

Don't feel like holding back so big spoilers below: (view spoiler)[
You're Emperor of Melnibone and you object to the way the country is run and how the people live. What to do? Let's go sack it and kill a bunch of your own citizens, including a fellow you know personally and like. Endanger your new allies and get them killed. Death death and more death. And then of course your own actions lead to your crazed cousin throwing your beloved onto your blade. Well! Guess you deserve the moniker "Womankiller" now. Oh, I'm so entertained. (hide spoiler)]

So, Elric is the Big Bad of his world. Everyone around him dies. But! Apparently without him (3rd story) AND without him wielding Stormbringer, the entire cosmos will be eaten and destroyed by extradimensional entities. So he's on the side of life and in order to get there everything is on the table. Or at least so it is implied throughout. Elric has power but no agency, the Eternal Champion - for someone else's cause.

Then a search for knowledge leading nowhere, and the anti-hero's journey with personal loss as he cuts off all human connection in order to protect those he would otherwise love. Er. Okay.

So, I found the fourth story totally loathsome. It seems without redemption.

But.

Have these stories inspired others? It seems they have, others who have run with the ideas in a rather better fashion.

Jim Starlin's Warlock now seems even more obviously inspired by Elric. Warlock's soul gem will indeed take the victim's soul. Warlock and his alter ego Magus are intended to stop the Mad Titan Thanos, who seeks ultimate death. Warlock does manage that (sorry Iron Man) at major cost to himself and those around him. Difference tho is that the soul gem doesn't just suck out the energy of your soul, it takes the entirety of the person. Warlock is able to live within the gem later and interact with those the gem has harvested. Gamora, Pip, the whole gang are there. And eventually resurrected, it being comics.

Or, more obviously in appearance, Sandman. Tall, thin, albino look, piercing eyes - that's both Elric and Morpheus. Sandman isn't quite as damned as Elric but he still has trouble relating to those around him, and a cosmic destiny.

Neil Gaiman's intro to the book was...interesting. It's pretty much an autobiography of Gaiman and his love for Elric stories, told from the POV of the young teen he was when he encountered the books. It delves further into the depravities of British schoolboys than I ever wanted to know about, but at least we see someone actually interested in the stories. Obsessed with them really.

For what it's worth I could only muster up a mild interest and read the other three stories really for completion. I'd never spend time hunting these down. And yet the Elric fandom continues. Lots of people love the stark grimdark of these books. I'm not among them. But at least they have inspired other, better works.

John (Taloni) wrote: "Finished the fourth story. After finding some redeeming parts of the second and third stories, this one is just awful.

Don't feel like holding back so big spoilers below:
Your Emperor of Melni..."

Great review, John. I read the first book and didn’t have any desire to keep reading about the culture of “psychopathic elves” (as Tom so aptly describes them), but I think I should have just quit after reading Gaiman’s disturbing introduction.

Just dropping in here to say that, while I personally decided this book didn’t look like something I’d enjoy so I skipped it, I have very much enjoyed reading all of your thoughts. Thanks for over-thinking it!

John (Taloni) wrote: "Finished the fourth story. After finding some redeeming parts of the second and third stories, this one is just awful..."

Agreed! See my other EoM comment string :-)