Reading the Detectives discussion

Welcome to our first challenge title of 1923. We are looking at scenes of classic crime and our first scene is that classic of Golden Age murder - the library. The Body in the Library, first published in 1942, is the second Miss Marple mystery.

It’s seven in the morning. The Bantrys wake to find the body of a young woman in their library. She is wearing evening dress and heavy make-up, which is now smeared across her cheeks. But who is she? How did she get there? And what is the connection with another dead girl, whose charred remains are later discovered in an abandoned quarry? The respectable Bantrys invite Miss Marple to solve the mystery… before tongues start to wag.

We look forward to a year of exploring some classic murder scenes of Golden Age crime in your company and look forward to your thoughts. Which are your favourites?

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.

This was a re-read for me and while perhaps not one of the best mysteries, I really love Miss Marple and Dolly Bantry going off to the hotel to sleuth.

Usually when I re-read Christie, I can spot the clues, but this one doesn't seem to have many other than the bitten fingernails. It's confusing, too, that we never know what time poor Pamela Reeves was at the hotel and how the timing worked given that that was so important.

I watched the Geraldine McEwan version of this which is wonderful, she's a very twinkly Miss Marple and Joanna Lumley as Dolly Bantry with a host of famous faces. But they changed the perpetrators which I'm going to put in spoilers in case anyone wants to watch it:(view spoiler)[Josie is in love with Addie instead of Mark in a modern twist (hide spoiler)].

There is also Josie's surprise that the body is found in the library chez Bantry.

Nowadays, and in other books, time of death is found by looking at the stomach contents, and comparing that with what and when the victim last ate. If they had done this with the body in the library, they would presumably have puzzsled over what Ruby seemed to have eaten - camp food, rather than dinner at the hotel.

Roman Clodia wrote: "This was a re-read for me and while perhaps not one of the best mysteries, I really love Miss Marple and Dolly Bantry going off to the hotel to sleuth.

Usually when I re-read Christie, I can spot ..."
I watched the Geraldine McEwan version too, and liked it though the 'modern' twist made no sense to me except if they wanted to surprise those who'd read it.

The only think I'd really forgotten in the book was why they needed Pamela Reeves and I remembered the alibi point much later on, closer to when Miss Marple wonders about the nails.

It does seem particularly heartless to kill a stranger just for the alibi, not to mention the necessity to make a schoolgirl at least pass for an 18 year old dancer. And where did they find Pamela? The TV episode shows them waiting outside a cinema.

Good point, Rosina, about stomach contents!

All the same, I didn't really mind the holes in the plot as the book is so much fun.

I've finished rereading now - I remembered that Mark was involved but got mixed up and thought he was in love with Addie. I was glad that wasn't the case as I quite like Addie.

I didn't totally understand the need to use Pamela, I think I got slightly lost with that and it is also a rather grim plot element - but I do agree that the book is a lot of fun, as RC said. I had forgotten that Miss Marple doesn't come in as much as she does in some of the other books, but she is great when she does appear.

Roman Clodia wrote: "It does seem particularly heartless to kill a stranger just for the alibi, not to mention the necessity to make a schoolgirl at least pass for an 18 year old dancer. And where did they find Pamela?..."

They hooked Pamela with the “Hollywood/be a star” angle, told her she had to keep it secret but come for a screen test. In the Joan Hickson version, that sticks to the actual plot, Pamela comes back from Girl Scout thing on the bus with a friend, confesses about her “screen test”, goes off and disappears. The police interview Pamela’s friends, including the besty who knew about the screen test, with Miss M in the room. Because of her experience with training young maids, she spots the liar, confronts her, tells her she must confess what she knows, and she does.

I didn’t enjoy this as much as the handful of other Christies I’ve read. I found the writing a bit clunky, e.g. when Jefferson cries out “Margaret” and Christie has to explain who Margaret was. I didn’t entirely buy Miss Marple as a character—sometimes she was the cozy, outward-focused old lady, sometimes a bit of a self-absorbed braggart. And I thought the pairing on which the resolution hinged was singularly unlikely—what on earth would induce (view spoiler)[Mark to marry Josie? (hide spoiler)] The story was brisk and nicely complicated and I liked the characters, but I didn’t really get caught up in it. Seemed more workmanlike than brilliant.

I did wonder if that was just part of showing how unsuitable a match it had been for Jefferson's daughter. A complete bounder, whose match was the low class and mercenary dancer. Whereas Jefferson himself did eventually come to realise that Ruby was not really the sort of girl one admitted to one's circle.

Christie is, usually, an appalling snob!

Judy wrote: "I've finished rereading now - I remembered that Mark was involved but got mixed up and thought he was in love with Addie. I was glad that wasn't the case as I quite like Addie.

I didn't totally u..."

It was to give them an alibi for the time of death--Pamela killed earlier at a time (or supposedly at a time) when they had an alibi for Ruby's death, while they killed Ruby later. But RC was right that there isn't any explanation for how they found Pamela in teh first place

I would like to think that in 'real life' murderers would not kill an uninvolved schoolgirl to establish an alibi. In the world of GA mysteries with closed room murders done by fantastic methods, I find it more acceptable.

Thank you Lady C, I got a bit confused about the motivation. Sandy, I agree with your comment about hoping this wouldn't happen in real life, but that it is a clever twist for a mystery. I do find it rather grim though.

Judy wrote: "Thank you Lady C, I got a bit confused about the motivation. Sandy, I agree with your comment about hoping this wouldn't happen in real life, but that it is a clever twist for a mystery. I do find ..."

Definitely grim, heartless, vicious and one more reason why Christie's are not 'cozy'.

Judy wrote: "Thank you Lady C, I got a bit confused about the motivation. Sandy, I agree with your comment about hoping this wouldn't happen in real life, but that it is a clever twist for a mystery. I do find ..."

Yes, especially in the Joan Hickson version, they show Pamela’s anxious parents being told about her body being found, both struggling to keep it together, it’s heartbreaking! Really highlights the vicious nature of the crime - murder is anyway, of course, but realizing how it devastated the parents, the cruelty and senselessness.

Creates another red herring, too, as that Basil character worked in films, and his photo fell out of Ruby’s handbag. This sends the police off after him as the potential killer, as Pamela was obsessed with films and celebrity, and Miss Marple realizes she’d be gullible if she thought she’d been “discovered”, and would go along with getting her hair dyed, nails painted and clipped, dressed in one of Ruby’s gowns for a “film test.” I would think a lot of young people would be obsessed with the glamour of films in the drab post-war world; seems a very harsh punishment for an understandable, if foolish obsession (what would the odds be of truly being “discovered” and getting into films?)

Sandy wrote: "Judy wrote: "Thank you Lady C, I got a bit confused about the motivation. Sandy, I agree with your comment about hoping this wouldn't happen in real life, but that it is a clever twist for a myster..."

Certainly not cozy, when you think about them; makes Christie an even more intriguing character to me. I think for my ongoing personal nonfiction book a month challenge, I’ll read Lucy Worsley’s Agatha Christie: A Very Elusive Woman very soon.

I watched some of the Lucy Worsley documentary about her, although I didn't get very far. Perhaps the book is better, but the show seemed to gloss over a lot and make a lot of assumptions.

Susan wrote: "I watched some of the Lucy Worsley documentary about her, although I didn't get very far. Perhaps the book is better, but the show seemed to gloss over a lot and make a lot of assumptions."

I don’t think that documentary has aired on my public television station yet here in NC - that’s where I have previously seen Lucy Worsley programs.

I didn't get very far with the programme either and also felt the part I saw seemed to make a lot of assumptions. I'd be interested to hear if the book is better.

I felt the same way about the book, including some irritating phrases such as Agatha Christie being 'a man-magnet'! If you've read one of the other biographies, this didn't feel like it added anything. One to borrow from the library rather than buy, I'd say. My review is here if anyone is interested:

www.goodreads.com/review/show/4989013437

Judy wrote: "I didn't get very far with the programme either and also felt the part I saw seemed to make a lot of assumptions. I'd be interested to hear if the book is better."

I've seen at least one positive review on wordpress from a fellow blogger
https://wordpress.com/read/blogs/1178...

Susan in NC wrote: "Judy wrote: "Thank you Lady C, I got a bit confused about the motivation. Sandy, I agree with your comment about hoping this wouldn't happen in real life, but that it is a clever twist for a myster..."

Even if people are more aware of possible 'traps' now, the allure of films/modelling still seems to work on young girls. A tv soap running here (which my mother follows) has just been addressing that in one episode.

Susan in NC wrote: "Judy wrote: "Thank you Lady C, I got a bit confused about the motivation. Sandy, I agree with your comment about hoping this wouldn't happen in real life, but that it is a clever twist for a myster..."

You asked what the odds are truly being "discovered" and getting into films. Well, it's certainly very rare but there are tricksters out there that will deceive young people--young women, particularly. Unfortunately, for Pamela, her obsession with celebrities in the film world and the rare opportunity of being picked from the masses for a film role took over reason and thinking that this is just too good to be true. But she was young and naive about evil in the world and how people will use others to achieve their objectives. Many, not all, young people are naive of this fact, therefore, they're too trusting.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I felt the same way about the book, including some irritating phrases such as Agatha Christie being 'a man-magnet'! If you've read one of the other biographies, this didn't feel like it added anyth..."

Thank you! Which biography would you recommend, if you have read others? I’ve got the Worsley audiobook and ebook through Scribd, but if there better bios out there, I’d like to read one of those.

LovesMysteries wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Judy wrote: "Thank you Lady C, I got a bit confused about the motivation. Sandy, I agree with your comment about hoping this wouldn't happen in real life, but that it is a cleve..."

Exactly.

Susan in NC wrote: "Which biography would you recommend, if you have read others?"

Annoyingly, I didn't mark it on here but am pretty sure that I read Agatha Christie: A Mysterious Life by Laura Thompson.

I didn't learn anything new from the Worsley but I'd probably rate them about the same just because there are limited sources to work from and they use the same ones. Lucy Worsley is, as usual, very jaunty and modern whereas I think the Thompson is more sober. If you have access to Worsley it's fun - if I hadn't read the previous biography and expected new research especially on the missing days, I'd probably have enjoyed it more.

Christie did have a fascinating life so I'd highly recommend reading about her life if you haven't already.

ps. Worsley talks about spoilers for the books so beware if you haven't read them already.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Which biography would you recommend, if you have read others?"

Annoyingly, I didn't mark it on here but am pretty sure that I read [book:Agatha Christie: A Mysterious Life|3540..."

Thanks, the Worsley is available through Scribd in ebook and audiobook, so I’ll probably try that one.

Roman Clodia wrote: "ps. Worsley talks about spoilers for the books so beware if you haven't read them already."

Thanks, i think I’ve read just about all her books, and spoilers don’t really bother me - I often forget, anyway!

Sandy wrote: "Judy wrote: "Thank you Lady C, I got a bit confused about the motivation. Sandy, I agree with your comment about hoping this wouldn't happen in real life, but that it is a clever twist for a myster..."

It was a particularly nasty plot element. It threw into sharp relief just how coldly calculated the whole business was.

Could someone remind me please, how Somerset House fits in? (I read it on Kindle, so I can’t flick back through easily.) What was it that made Dinah ask Miss Marple if she’d been to Somerset House when she revealed that she knew Dinah and Basil were married?

Not sure, but I think it must have been a central registry for all marriages.

Abigail wrote: "Not sure, but I think it must have been a central registry for all marriages."

Thanks Abigail! Makes sense.

Somerset House is, indeed, a central place where you can look up birth certificates, marriage certificates, etc. Was it not when Miss Marple realised the young Basil was married and pretending not to be, so as to shock the neighbours and advised them to behave?

I should have said you could look up - everything is pretty much online now. Here's a link, so you can have a look. It's quite an imposing building.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerse...

Susan wrote: "I should have said you could look up - everything is pretty much online now. Here's a link, so you can have a look. It's quite an imposing building.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerse..."

Thanks Susan. I didn’t make the connection! Perhaps because I never thought of it in that context, only knew it as where they used to host an annual art exhibition from the late 18th century.

I don't think the central register of births, deaths and marriages is still at Somerset House, think it moved about 25 years ago. The Courtauld Institute and Kings College, London, expanded into the space, and some of it is used for exhibitions now as well as the winter skating rink in the courtyard.

Susan wrote: "Somerset House is, indeed, a central place where you can look up birth certificates, marriage certificates, etc. Was it not when Miss Marple realised the young Basil was married and pretending not ..."

Yes, that was a great scene- the two Bright Young Things think she’s just an interfering old cat, she sets them straight!

Susan wrote: "I should have said you could look up - everything is pretty much online now. Here's a link, so you can have a look. It's quite an imposing building.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerse..."

Thank you, yikes! I’d pack a lunch just to get across that courtyard!

Roman Clodia wrote: "I don't think the central register of births, deaths and marriages is still at Somerset House, think it moved about 25 years ago. The Courtauld Institute and Kings College, London, expanded into th..."

Oh, now that’s a lovely use to imagine in that huge courtyard, a skating rink!

I really enjoyed this one and its full set of characters. The numbers of detectives on the case was almost equal to the number of suspects and still poor old Jane was the one making the necessary connections first.

I enjoyed this one! I have always loved Agatha Christie but I agree that whole deal with the school girl was pretty heinous; other than that it was another great Christie. This is a reread for me and I still didnt get all the clues.

This is one of the ones where I find myself thinking ‘surely there must have been an easier way to do it.’ I mean, why not just bump off the old man rather than all this unnecessarily complicated business of killing two girls?, disguising one as the other one etc. I mean really. And honestly, who puts a dead body in their car and dumps it in someone else’s house? That really is bizarre.