2025 Reading Challenge discussion

This thread is to discuss A Dance with Dragons, the fifth book in the A Song of Ice and Fire series by George R.R. Martin.

Pages: 1125 pages

Length: 2 months (January and February)

Participants:bailey, Lorraine, Jessica, Dominique, Alison, Nate, Darlene, Caterina

Everyone reads at their own pace during a Buddy Read. Because participants can be at different parts of the book at different times, it is extremely important to mark spoilers so that the book is not ruined for someone who is not as far along as others!!!

Mark spoilers by placing {spoiler} before the text and {/spoiler} after the text but use the < and > instead of the { and }.

I just started and read through the first three chapters.

Prologue- Once again, I have no idea what's happening in the prologue or who this character is. (view spoiler)[I am generally not a fan of any of the warg storylines, even though I'm aware they play a crucial part in this series. (hide spoiler)]

Tyrion - I was missing Tyrion in the last book, but this chapter was not his finest.

Daenerys - (view spoiler)[The Sons of the Harpy is another storyline I am not a fan of. (hide spoiler)]

Through the first 8 chapters.

I think the prologue goes over the rules of "warging" because it seems that Bran does several things he isn't supposed to do. I'm going to have to reread those passages.

In Jon's second chapter, he sends Sam, Ginny, and Maester Aemon to the Citadel. I was confused, because we already got those chapters in A Feast for Crows, but as Martin points out in the introduction, the events in the two books are happening at the same time.

Speaking of Maester Aemon, Lorraine and Jill brought up the prophecy of the prince that was promised. Here are my thoughts on it: (view spoiler)[Aemon thinks it might be a princess that was promised, because as far as he knows, Dany is the last living Targaryen. I believe Aerys and Rhaella married because the PtwP was supposed to be born from their bloodline. Aemon is hoping more than anything that she's the one, because the PtwP is supposed to be the reincarnation of Azor Ahai, who once saved the realm of men from the Others. The Others are back and threatening the world of Westeros, and those who are aware of the prophecy are searching for the PtwP.

This is what Melisandre says of the prophecy: "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."

At the House of the Undying, Dany sees Rhaegar talking to Elia about their son Aegon: "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He also says: "There must be one more. The dragon has three heads," but I'm not sure any of this is part of the prophecy.

The R+L=J theory makes sense. No one knows what the song of ice and fire is, but I think it involves both fire magic and ice magic. While the Targaryen are well versed with fire, they don't use ice. Ice magic would have to come from the free folk, children of the forest, first men, and other ancestors that might be part of the Stark bloodline.
(hide spoiler)]

Caterina wrote: "Through the first 8 chapters.

I think the prologue goes over the rules of "warging" because it seems that Bran does several things he isn't supposed to do. I'm going to have to reread those passa..."

That is also my theory!

A referral to Achilles? What do you think?
Chapter 15: Davos (view spoiler)[ ‘She was an old cog (the Merry Midwife ship), and even in her youth no one had ever called her pretty. Her figurehead showed a laughing woman holding an infant by one foot…’ (hide spoiler)]
Back reading GOT after a little break. I think this one will be tough on the moral…(view spoiler)[ REEK, LORD Ramsey, THE OTHERS…a lot of bad characters all at once…Let’s hope GRRM does what he does best…we get rid of a few of them 😊 (hide spoiler)]

I'm planning on starting this in the next week or two! Can't wait to discuss with everyone again :)

I am planning on starting this towards the end of next week also! I was going to start earlier next week but a lot of library holds came up at once...I am going on vacation next Friday and will be able to concentrate on this book while on vacation 😉

Lorraine wrote: "A referral to Achilles? What do you think?
Chapter 15: Davos [spoilers removed]
Back reading GOT after a little break. I think this one will be tough on the moral…[spoilers removed]"

Yes, this book has some difficult and unfortunate storylines. I have read the first 16 chapters, and none of these are fun chapters. I am enjoying Jon's storyline so far, but I also know what's coming 😩

Some thoughts on chapters 9-16:

(view spoiler)[
- Jon sentences Janos Slynt to death for insubordination. In the first book, he's one of the men who betrays Eddard Stark, and in the last book, he is executed by Jon Snow, who is believed to be Ned's son. And "the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword" is one of the things Ned teaches his sons at the beginning of the series. We get quite a few flashbacks to Ned these first chapters, and it's nice to remember him.
- Quentyn Martell is on a fool's errand. What is he thinking? He is told that Dany is the most beautiful woman in the world, has three dragons, has raised an army, rules over Mereen, and more... and he thinks he can convince her to marry him? He doesn't even have one ship.
- Davos is also on a fool's errand, but at least he's more rational about his chances of success. His enduring loyalty to Stannis is fascinating.
- I HATE the Reek storyline! Theon was one of the most awful characters in two of the previous books, and I hate that I have to feel bad for him now.
(hide spoiler)]

I found it really hard to keep track of chapters in our past buddy reads. My books are the mass market paperbacks, which have no chapter numbers.

Here are the chapters numbers and titles, in case someone else could use this information.

# Chapter Name

0 Prologue
1 Tyrion I
2 Daenerys I
3 Jon I
4 Bran I
5 Tyrion II
6 The Merchant's Man
7 Jon II
8 Tyrion III
9 Davos I
10 Jon III
11 Daenerys II
12 Reek I
13 Bran II
14 Tyrion IV
15 Davos II
16 Daenerys III
17 Jon IV
18 Tyrion V
19 Davos III
20 Reek II
21 Jon V
22 Tyrion VI
23 Daenerys IV
24 The Lost Lord
25 The Windblown
26 The Wayward Bride
27 Tyrion VII
28 Jon VI
29 Davos IV
30 Daenerys V
31 Melisandre I
32 Reek III
33 Tyrion VIII
34 Bran III
35 Jon VII
36 Daenerys VI
37 The Prince of Winterfell
38 The Watcher
39 Jon VIII
40 Tyrion IX
41 The Turncloak
42 The King's Prize
43 Daenerys VII
44 Jon IX
45 The Blind Girl
46 A Ghost in Winterfell
47 Tyrion X
48 Jaime I
49 Jon X
50 Daenerys VIII
51 Theon I
52 Daenerys IX
53 Jon XI
54 Cersei I
55 The Queensguard
56 The Iron Suitor
57 Tyrion XI
58 Jon XII
59 The Discarded Knight
60 The Spurned Suitor
61 The Griffin Reborn
62 The Sacrifice
63 Victarion I
64 The Ugly Little Girl
65 Cersei II
66 Tyrion XII
67 The Kingbreaker
68 The Dragontamer
69 Jon XIII
70 The Queen's Hand
71 Daenerys X
72 Epilogue

Caterina wrote: "I found it really hard to keep track of chapters in our past buddy reads. My books are the mass market paperbacks, which have no chapter numbers.

Here are the chapters numbers and titles, in case..."

Thanks!

Caterina wrote: "Lorraine wrote: "A referral to Achilles? What do you think?
Chapter 15: Davos [spoilers removed]
Back reading GOT after a little break. I think this one will be tough on the moral…[spoilers removed..."

Totally agree
(view spoiler)[ With everything that Theon did he does deserve but the way he's treated as Reek you do feel bad for me but still he does deserve to be punish (hide spoiler)]

Caterina. Thank you for the Chapter name and number. I have the First Edition Hardcover and the chapters have names but no number. It will be helpful.
I just finished Chapter 27. Theon (view spoiler)[ story is quite sad and I agree with you that I would prefer to have stayed angry at him. But maybe he will redeemed himself. (hide spoiler)]

I like that we learn more about Asha (Theon sister) in this book. She is an interesting character and I do not remember what happen to her so her story is completely new to me.

Quentyn Martell (view spoiler)[ Yes. How can he think that Daenerys will be interested in him ? Yes he has no ships but did he forgot she was married to Khal Drogo. He seems to think she is still a little girl. Funny how many male characters have a tendency to see the women as fragile and in need of a savior , when in fact they are strong women. (hide spoiler)]

Caterina, thank you for the Chapter Names/Numbers!!
I started this book yesterday and have only read the Prologue (and a little bit into Tyrion's Chapter):
(view spoiler)[ I agree with you, Caterina, that this prologue is defining the "rules" of warging...one of them being that you should NOT warg into another human. We can see the fight that goes on when Varamyr tries to warg into Thistle...she/her mind fights him to prevent it. However, Bran has broken this rule when warging into Hodor several times...I wonder if Hodor's mind is weakened enough that he doesn't fight Bran like Thistle did. Does this mean that it is "bad" that Bran has done this?

I thought the foreward of the book was interesting: Martin says that this book's storyline is running parallel to the storyline in "A Feast for Crows" but told in different areas of Westeros/through different characters viewpoints until the characters that were in "A Feast for Crows" start to show up in this book. That is when you are past the parallel storylines...
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 31. Melisandre. Another interesting character. But can Jon trust her? Where is she from?

Lorraine wrote: "Caterina. Thank you for the Chapter name and number. I have the First Edition Hardcover and the chapters have names but no number. It will be helpful.
I just finished Chapter 27. Theon [spoilers re..."

Re: Quentyn

(view spoiler)[I think this is such a patriarchal society that the idea of a woman not needing a man is too foreign to most characters. Even Dany is constantly told to take a husband (even though she's certainly capable and able to rule on her own).

As for Quentyn, I don't understand how he is taking such risks with this trip when he must consider the chances of success being rather slim. Everything has already gone wrong with the trip. They've lost people. And even if he makes it to Meereen, why would he think she was waiting for him? (hide spoiler)]

Alison wrote: "Caterina, thank you for the Chapter Names/Numbers!!
I started this book yesterday and have only read the Prologue (and a little bit into Tyrion's Chapter):
I agree with you, Caterina, that this pr..."

Re: Bran

(view spoiler)[Bran is the ultimate rule breaker. He did scale the walls of Winterfell even when his mother told him not to. I guess he's back to wanting to fly.

Hodor's mind being weakened is an interesting hypothesis. It would makes sense that breaking the rules of warging would lead to some unforeseen complications. I want to see how this storyline develops in the books.
(hide spoiler)]

Thoughts on chapters 17-22.

18 Tyrion V - (view spoiler)[Young Griff is Aegon Targaryen! This is one of the storylines I wanted to see play out in the show. I feel like because we didn't see it in the show, it's not really Aegon. (hide spoiler)]

19 Davos III - (view spoiler)[The Frey are telling everyone that the Red Wedding wasn't their fault. Robb transformed into a wolf at the Red Wedding and killed a bunch of people. This is a good reminder that history is written by the winners. (hide spoiler)]

22 Tyrion VI - (view spoiler)[Aegon is also assuming Dany will marry him. She has three dragons and an army; naturally, she would want to put Young Griff in charge of all this. She couldn't possibly handle it all herself.

This is part of the conversation between Tyrion and Young Griff on pages 306-307 (mmp). If I had a digital version, I would post the whole thing.

"It does make for a splendid story, and the singers will make much of your escape once you take the Iron Throne... assuming that our fair Daenerys takes you for her consort."

"She will. She must."

"Must?" ... "She may not prove as willing as you wish."

"She'll be willing."

I want to say the men in this universe are so full of themselves, but Young Griff is still pretty young.
(hide spoiler)]

This topic has been moved to the February 2023 Buddy Reads folder.

Trisha wrote: "This topic has been moved to the February 2023 Buddy Reads folder."

Thanks Trisha!

Chapter 34: Bran III

Caterina. I liked what you said about Bran (view spoiler)[ being the ultimate rule breaker. I just finished Chapter 34 and I am wondering how he will handle being a Greenseer at the same time as being a rule breaker. (hide spoiler)]

I agree that Quentyn is deluded about Dany. Her previous marriage to Drogo aside, she seems to be attracted to the bad boy type. (That’s the only way to explain her attraction to Dario, who is on my list of the most boring characters in the series.). Kind of makes me worry as to what will happen when she encounters Euron.

Any sympathy I felt for Tyrion vanishes in this book. Seriously, if I have to read “where do whores go?” One more time, I’ll be the one taking up the crossbow. Tyrion refuses to take blame for the fact that he was one of the men who raped Tysha; Tywin wasn’t holding a weapon to his head and forcing him to take part. Also, as much as I love Ser “I think I’ll just jump into this bear pit unarmed” he bears some blame for what happened and should own up to it. He’s 7 years older than Tyrion. That means he was already in the Kingsguard and was already a freaking kingslayer when Tyrion married Tysha. It’s not like Tywin could do anything if he refused to lie to Tyrion. Dude, you already gave up your inheritance so you could be close to your sister. And Tywin was not as all-powerful as he liked to pretend he was.

As for Bran, I’m worried about the path he’s going down. He’s broken one (possibly two, if a certain online theory is correct) warging rules we learn about in the prologue. Bloodraven should not be anyone’s role model.

And once again Martin makes me feel something for a character I never liked. I never cared for Cersei, but what happens to her in this book is horrible.

New favorite minor character: Melara Heatherspoon. Sweetie, you deserved so much better!

Started this a couple days ago and am through Davos II (chapter 15)
P.S. THANK YOU CATERINA for typing all that up, it is SO helpful!!

Parallel Storylines: My fiancé was telling me about how GRRM wanted to have Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons be one (ginormous) book but his publisher made him split it up. I am very grateful that this happened because I can't imagine reading a 2,000+ page book and keeping anything that happens straight in my mind lol. Anyways, I wish that rather than splitting up the characters between books he would have split it by the timeline. It feels like we're moving backwards sometimes, especially in Jon's chapters, when we're only just now getting the backstory for things that happened in book 4. That's just my thoughts though and others might enjoy having it the way it is!

Reek I, chapter 12: (view spoiler)[ I actually really enjoyed the Reek storyline in the show and so far I liked the first chapter we've gotten in the book. Even though he betrays the Starks and makes some pretty bad decisions I still like him as a character. I'm hoping he gets a redemption arc similar to the one we see in season 8 because he was one of my faves. (hide spoiler)]

Warging: (view spoiler)[ I somewhat agree with you, Caterina, that this is not one of the more interesting parts of the story. It was at first because we were getting more info about it than we got from GOT but now I'm getting tired of it. (hide spoiler)]

Through ch 27 Tyrion VII: (view spoiler)[ So, Ramsay Snow is supposed to marry Arya. But it's actually Jeyne Poole! I don't remember this happening in the show so I love getting a new storyline (if it's not just me forgetting, lol). I also don't remember the info about Ramsay hunting down women and flaying them but that definitely could've been in there and I just forgot. I wonder what Theon is going to do with this information now that he's been brainwashed and tortured by Ramsay... I also have been wondering about where Sansa is going to come into all of this or if she is at all.

And Tyrion is going to be brought to Dany? Very interesting. I wonder if this is actually what's going to happen. (hide spoiler)]

bailey wrote: "Through ch 27 Tyrion VII: So, Ramsay Snow is supposed to marry Arya. But it's actually Jeyne Poole! I don't remember this happening in the show so I love getting a new storyline (if it's not just ..."

Yes it seems GRRM went another way than the show in regards of (view spoiler)[ Ramsay's wife. It is not right for any woman to be his wife but I have to confess I am relieved it is not Sansa who has suffered a lot already. I do hope it stays that way in the book as I do not remember a lot (hide spoiler)]

Up to chapter 45.

32 Reek III - The tradition of the first night is vile and I appreciate Queen Alysanne for abolishing it. (view spoiler)[ Though obviously Roose Bolton didn't get the memo. (hide spoiler)]

34 Bran III - I am paying a lot more attention to Bran's storyline this time around. I'm not sure I know who all the visions are meant to be.

41 The Turncloak - (view spoiler)[I love finding out all these histories, especially since Brandon Stark going to King's Landing is what essentially started the war. The pettiness of Lady Dustin is astounding! I hardly think feeding Ned Stark's bones to her dogs will change anything. (hide spoiler)]

45 The Blind Girl - Is this our first Arya chapter in this book?

My thoughts through Chapter 26 "The Wayward Bride";
(view spoiler)[ I have read your spoilers through Chapter 26/27 Tyrion VII and I agree with all that you all are saying (re: Quentyn being deluded/fantasizing what Dany will marry him/this being a very patriarchal book but really the women are so strong, just not given enough credit/Griff -or Aegon -is very young!) I didn't know that Prince Aegon had survived in the book so this was a very new and pleasant surprise to me!! I look forward to this storyline!

Also, the fact that Ramsay is going to marry Jeyne Poole...also a surprise to me since it was different in the TV show! Yes, @bailey...I am looking for Sansa to show up in the storyline but I am not sure that is going to happen!

I do have to say that I love the chapters that are not named for a character! They tend to bring side characters in or focus on those that aren't in the main arc of the story! I just enjoyed "The Lost Lord" (focused on Aegon), "The Windblown" (love the descriptions of the sellswords/their army and the plot to defect to Dany's army) and "The Wayward Bride" (I have always liked Asha as a character and hope she fights on!)

As for Reek...I find myself repelled/a little squeamish to read his chapters! I thought Theon way too full of himself and the fact that he has been reduced to Reek by the cruelty of Ramsay turns my stomach a bit BUT it also makes me hopeful for a redemption storyline like Reek had in the TV show!

Bran and the Others are some of my favorite chapters in the book! I also feel for Jon and the responsibilities he has taken on.
Oh...and if I read "where do whores go" one more time, I will do some damage 😉
(hide spoiler)]

Finished the book last night. I have lots of thoughts to share, but…

First and foremost, I hope GRRM gets a chance to finish this series! It would be such a shame if he never gets to tell us how it all comes together. The world-building, the plot, and the characters are all outstanding. He’s built such an incredible story and I really want try to see it unfold.

I generally enjoyed the show (even season 8 unlike most of the fandom). Still, it was so disappointing to see several of the most interesting plot lines get dropped by D&D. We still need answers!

Sending lots of good vibes to GRRM so he can finish writing soon.

Caterina wrote: "Finished the book last night. I have lots of thoughts to share, but…

First and foremost, I hope GRRM gets a chance to finish this series! It would be such a shame if he never gets to tell us how ..."

I really agree with you! I will send good vibes too. I look at his website when I finished the book and did not see any comments about the next one. And there is no more referral to it on Amazon.
Here are my thoughts about the last chapters
(view spoiler)[
Chapter 65. Cersei II.
No woman should go through that ‘walk of shame’, no matter what she did.
Chapter 68. The Dragontamer
Not everyone can tame a Dragon…poor Quentin. Not sure he knew what he was getting into when he left his country …

Chapter 69: Jon XIII
NO!!!! I understand GRRM said not to get attached to anyone but hey, that is an exaggeration! You cannot kill JON! I am sure he is one of the head of the Dragon. This is one of the reason you wish GRRM will finally give us another book, so Jon gets back to life. If not…I am quitting here! 😊
Chapter 72. Epilogue
Aegon has been trained to rule…so what is happening next! I want to know!
(hide spoiler)]
Thank you all for reading Game of Thrones with me. It was my 3rd read and I have no regret to have read them all again. Now I will turn my attention to The Targaryen…

bailey wrote: "My fiancé was telling me about how GRRM wanted to have Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons be one (ginormous) book but his publisher made him split it up. I am very grateful that this happened because I can't imagine reading a 2,000+ page book and keeping anything that happens straight in my mind lol. Anyways, I wish that rather than splitting up the characters between books he would have split it by the timeline...."

I hope you all don't mind me butting in. I read these books a few years ago (then watched the show to get the idea of how the plot is supposed to end in case GRRM never finishes the series, which seems more likely each passing year) so I've enjoyed reliving them somewhat by following your discussion.

Anyway, I was just going to mention that A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons were originally not going to exist at all. GRRM was going to write a short prologue to The Winds of Winter that covered everything that happens in these books. Of course when he sat down to start writing, he realized that too much was happening to cover in a short prologue and he would need to write a full book to cover that timeline. Like you mentioned, he ended up breaking that into two books. He separated the books by characters because he wanted each book to have a coherent beginning, middle and end, and not just a "to be continued" at the end of one volume. It was a fairly controversial decision, based on fan feedback, and most folks seem to think that A Feast for Crows suffers by not featuring the series' most interesting characters (Tyrion, Jon, Dany).

Personally, I enjoyed both books although not as much as the first three. But there is a suggested reading order for "A Feast for Dragons" that combines the two books in chronological order - you can find it here: http://afeastwithdragons.com/. I've decided that if I ever re-read the books - which I will probably do if GRRM ever releases The Winds of Winter - then I will try this. I thought I'd pass it along in case anyone is interested. Enjoy your group read!

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "bailey wrote: "My fiancé was telling me about how GRRM wanted to have Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons be one (ginormous) book but his publisher made him split it up. I am very grateful that ..."

Very interesting! Thank you. I will try this if, like you say, we finally get Winds of Winter.

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "bailey wrote: "My fiancé was telling me about how GRRM wanted to have Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons be one (ginormous) book but his publisher made him split it up. I am very grateful that ..."

Thanks for sharing this, RJ - Slayer of Trolls!

This was my second time reading the books, and as soon as I finished, I realized I would need to do another re-read. Personally, I think we'll get Winds of Winter within the next two years (but maybe I'm a dreamer).

These are my thoughts on the last chapters of the book.

(view spoiler)[
Ch. 56 - Another chapter, another man who thinks that Daenerys should fall at his feet and marry him. Unbelievable! And Victarion is a very old man while Dany is still a teenager.

Ch. 63 - When I read the book again, I will have to pay more attention to all the swords, horns, and other magical objects. This Dragon Horn is probably important, and I feel like we’ve heard of it before, but I can’t remember when and in what context.

Ch. 65 - I agree, Lorraine. No one deserves this level of public shame and embarrassment. Like with the Reek storyline, I hate that I have to feel bad for Cersei. GRRM is so good at writing very nuanced characters.

Ch. 68 - RIP Quentyn… you poor fool.

Ch. 69 - RIP Jon. This is one of the storylines I am looking forward to the most, because I know it will be handled differently in the books than it was in the show. We know that "death must pay for life" and that people who are resurrected by fire magic pay a price. Jon is a warg and can live in Ghost, but I don't think he'll come back the same. And I think it will be interesting to see how GRRM handles this.

Epilogue - WHAT AN ENDING!!! If you’re gonna make people wait over a decade for the next book, that’s the kind of cliffhanger you wanna leave them on!
(hide spoiler)]

@Jill

Any sympathy I felt for Tyrion vanishes in this book. Seriously, if I have to read “where do whores go?” One more time, I’ll be the one taking up the crossbow. Tyrion refuses to take blame for the fact that he was one of the men who raped Tysha; Tywin wasn’t holding a weapon to his head and forcing him to take part.

Tyrion is a much darker character in the books. He's also a villain at this point (by his own admission and based on the morality put forth in ASOIAF). In that regard, I don't think you're expected to feel any sympathy for him.

At the same time, he is a very complex character. Out of all the villains in this series, he's probably the most likeable one.

I don't think he necessarily refuses to take accountability for his actions; instead, we're seeing a complicated emotional trajectory as he reckons with the impact of his behavior. We've seen him have repeated flashbacks about Tysha in his previous three books, and I would argue that's a manifestation of his guilt. At the start of ADWD, he has just killed his father (kinslaying is one of the worst offenses in Westeros), he strangled his former lover, and he found out about Jaime's betrayal. He has lived for years with the pain of "Tysha's betrayal." Because of what he things happened that day, he doesn't believe that any woman could want him if it weren't for his coin. He has justified his behavior towards Tysha based on her presumed betrayal. Now he knows that he has no excuse. He knows it deep down, but I would argue that it takes time to truly accept that you were the main villain in someone else's story. Will Tyrion make a plan to atone? Is it even possible at this point? I don't know but I think there's more to come with the Tyrion/Tysha storyline. At the very least, I think we'll see more of Tyrion's emotional trajectory as he deals with his guilt and alienation.

Personally, I appreciate it when an author is willing to dig ten layers deep into a character's soul, and I feel like that's what we got in Tyrion's chapters. I found him to be mostly unsympathetic and yet it was so fascinating to see the exploration of his character. Same with Cersei in AFFC; I didn't like her but loved the depth of characterization.

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "bailey wrote: "My fiancé was telling me about how GRRM wanted to have Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons be one (ginormous) book but his publisher made him split it up. I am very grateful that ..."

As others have already said: Thank you for sharing this info with us! Makes me wonder where the story would be if he'd kept to his original plan and not written out these two books... strange to consider that we could have already gotten WoW if he did. But I'm glad he stayed true to his creative process and didn't shorten things just because he felt it was right!