The Sword and Laser discussion

At about the 20% mark and there have been not one but two data dumps. One to introduce the fairly large cast of characters, and another for a rather grotesque story to intro (view spoiler)[the planet's inhabitants. (hide spoiler)] Plus several instances of As You Know, Bob.

What...are these doing in a Tiptree story? Admittedly it has been a long time since I read her stories. A little digging brings up the collection Ten Thousand Light Years from Home, which I read as a middle teen. From that one The Man Who Walked Home stands out. I recall her as being weird, offbeat, nihilistic, yes, but data dumps? I don't think we even know much about the MC of Man Who Walked Home until the end.

Moving on...thought about making this a separate topic but don't want to spam the board. There's some items that really should have trigger warnings.

First up the subject of kiddy porn, brought up first in passing and then in detail. It's really rather nauseating but does seem integral to the story.

Then the torture of (view spoiler)[the alien race. (hide spoiler)] It was in enough detail to gross me out. I can see people dropping the book at this point. Fair warning.

Since Tiptree was an intelligence agent, I find myself wondering if these were based on actual situations she knew about but could not discuss in fact, so she told them in fiction. Corey Feldman alleged widespread child sexual abuse in the entertainment industry. Was he right? Or the (unproven so far) allegations against Dan Schneider, producer of many Nickelodeon shows. The subject makes me want to hurl, but then, if it's happening then it's better we look at it than away.

As for the torture, humanity's ability for cruelty knows few bounds. I prefer uplifting SFF but have no difficulty envisioning humans acting like this at some point in history. Makes for a compelling story, if not a fun one.

Ugh, this makes me worried. Torture is something I really can't handle. Guess I'll see when I get there, but this makes me concerned.

I didn’t actually mind the data dumps since they seemed well-integrated into the narrative and reasonably organic- group of people arrive on a planet all at the same time and learn about the planet’s history from the people who live there.

As for the potentially triggering topics, the way the torture is described by someone who’s clearly traumatised by the whole concept kind of put it in a proper context for me - there are even in-story references to “this is gonna be upsetting” so it kind of has an inbuilt trigger warning.

I was significantly more blindsided by the casual reference to child porn 😳

The mass introduction at the beginning seemed less like a data dump (although in hindsight it probably was), and more like the standard tropy introduction to a locked room murder mystery. I'm about 70 pages in and the writing in general seems to be mimicking this type of story. I'm fine with it, but it does make it feel a bit more dated. But in a different way than a lot of other classic Sci-FI does.

I both agree the second one about the history could have been brought up in a different way, maybe more vaguely alluded to over some other conversations instead of the class lecture, but hey it is what it is.

I had no problems with the data dumps. Most of the people in the story are essentially space tourists on the planet for a finite period of time.

Kip and Cory are their tour guides. Data dumping is one of their duties as hosts.

Though apparently we are spared the worst of the torture scenes and have them left to our imagination (How they use the children for example)

Ruth wrote: "I was significantly more blindsided by the casual reference to child porn 😳."

and the way the others treat it as fairly normal.

I'd be put off if a bunch of adult porn stars were filming a scene behind flimsy screens, while I'm trying to enjoy the natural wonders of a location. Let alone a bunch of (what we assume are under-age) teenagers 😕

The cameraman/director is treated quite respectfully by the others. We'd all think of him as a sleaze ball who's exploiting vulnerable children.

I’m at around the 20% mark and wondering: is there any justification for the child porn? I realise this is a spoiler, but will the justification become apparent? Will there be repercussions? Or is this simply a case of “this is just how it is in this universe”? Otherwise I’m feeling a bit too squicked by the story so far.

Sticking just to that point, and there are others much worse, yep, it's just accepted. If anything I think Tiptree is making a point about how much it's accepted in her society of the day. Hollywood just blinked and didn't care about Roman Polanski.

I've finished the book, so will post more as I have time to process. Briefly, Tiptree does get into the worst of humanity, but makes important points. The book is worth reading. It is significant rather than fun.

I agree that the point is at least partly a "this is happening here and now, pretending you don't know it's happening isn't making it go away". I also think a part of it is ( spoiler for where the kids end up)
(view spoiler)[ These 4 kids get out and away from the business thanks to blundering into people who help them out as individuals, but we're meant to be reminded that that doesn't fix the gross nasty system of which they were a tiny part. (hide spoiler)]

Also, i'll say that chapter 17 and the first half of 18 are some of the worst in terms of violence done to the Dameii.
For those who might want to skip the details (view spoiler)[ Zannez and the kids use gymanstics, vague martial art like moves, and the power of Plot to end 2 bad guys and rescue 2/3 dameii.
Dr. B tries to save the girl in the first half of 18 but she dies anyway. (hide spoiler)]
There's some rough scenes scattered through before too, but that'll let you skip the darkest chapter at least. After that, things start going mostly uphill (ish) for some of the characters.

I’m at 27% and it’s a bit of a slog. Mostly because it’s pure grimdark.

The data dumps are fine, I think. It’s a clunky way of doing it, but the book *was* written in the 1980s. At least no one’s done the thing of, “Hey, Susan, it’s your little sister Mary. Remember when our alcoholic father, Jerry, abandoned us on Halloween at the warehouse built in 1920 by General Widgets that later burned down and we thought we saw the ghost of our dead mom, Julianne, who was born in 1980 and later developed diabetes because she only ate Pez and Dr. Pepper?”

As for the kiddie porn, I have no idea WTF that’s all about. There better be a payoff or retribution or *something*.

Right now, I’m guessing the kids end up staying as the next generation of Dameii protectors. But frankly none of them really act like kids. Either they’re extraordinarily jaded 13-year-olds or actually not kids.