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House of Leaves, by MZD Chapters IX-XVI
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Chapter IX and XI'm going to start this discussion off using a quote from Truant explaining how I felt while reading Chapter IX:
Ever since leaving the labyrinth, having had to endure all those convolutions, those incomplete suggestions, the maddening departures and inconclusive nature of the whole fucking chapter, I craved space, light and some kind of clarity (179).
This was the first time Johnny has ever said anything worth repeating or embracing, and so I am hanging on every word of his assessment on Chapter IX. It's been the worst chapter so far in regards to experiencing the "head space" of Johnny and Zampano...It left me feeling angry and so irritated flipping back and forth, and worst of all re-reading of FNs 123 (Minos' labyrinth), and the one denoted "X." We're asked to repeat reading the whole cycle of FN's spearheaded by the two mentioned at least 5-6 times...I get it, we all get it, the main characters are in a mental gridlock of sorts and losing their grasp with reality unable to keep their reiteration of one another's work in order-It's maddening. I get it, after the second time I reread (didn't bother the other 4 times it's mentioned to do so) the heavily emphasized FNs, they tie together aspects of the labyrinth in both the Navidson Documentary, as well as Johnny/Zampano's narrative. In fact, I'm sure everybody has noticed FN 123 is written in the shape of a "key..."
I wanted to give you two a little bit of a preview into my madness with the FNs:
X ->135 ->129 ->120 ->then to K @ top (page 109) ->Bauplan FN ->122 ->K ->123 ->127 ->124 ->125 ->123 ->127 ->124 ->125 ->123 ->126 ->123 ->128 ->narrative (page 111) ->129 ->130 ->131 ->132 ->133 (page 30, flipped through 365 & 441), back to narrative (page 113) ->134 ->X (107) and Repeat whole process over again...As I said, I did this twice before the BP began to rise, and went back to the narrative on page 114.
Then, narrative (page 114) ->135 ->129 (Didn't repeat this process, it's seen above), instead went back to narrative (114) ->136 ->K (reread K but not the consecutive FN's mentioned above) ->back to narrative (114) ->137 ->134 ->back to X (Don't think so...Sorry) ->back to narrative (114) -> 138 ->Chapter VI FN 82 & FN 249 (page 261) ->back to narrative (114) ->to X, again (Been there done that process.)
In spite of the FN adventure, I much prefered it to the current narrative where I'm drowning in descriptive limitations of echo addressing the more complex ideation of convolution, interference, confusion and even decentric ideas of design and construction. In other words the concept of the labyrinth (109).
Picked up on...
(Pekinese Dog)
Well, there's a pekinese dog implemented in Johnny's narrative...Could smell that wasn't going to end well across the ocean separating whichever two continents are furthest apart. SMH.
The interesting thing about this placement of the pekinese dog story is that the elapsed time beforehand consists of nothing by debauchery...Absolutely sordid and vile to shock and horror (not scary).
Could the 5'5" DDDD honey at the bar be any more hilarious...Country and Pantera, huh? Then this is followed by utter tragedy. It's so antipodal in nature. Was Johnnie/Sled/Rachel a transvestite? She makes him terribly uncomfortable; pictured her claw-like hand grabbing..., he's frightened by her and has that bad taste forming in his mouth (268). He's completely shocked at what he/she has done to the dog and more so because the dog was a projection of Johnny...He had every intention of saving it; so why does she lie and dispose of it in the manner in which she does?
After the actual story about the dog is told, Johnny thought about going to visit Thumper... to that place where I could be alone with the failing light and shadow play, where I could peak in ease, unhurried, unmolested, a notion which as suddenly-and for no apparent reason either-made me feel terribly uncomfortable (115). There's a subconscious recollecting occurring here.
Lude and Johnny's Conquest lists...What the heck is wrong with all of these women...Forget the women, what's wrong with these men, why are they magnets for dysfunction. I thought this book was supposed to be scary...I find myself laughing more than being chilled to the core?
I'll add more in the coming days.
Chapter IXFirst, a favorite quote from this chapter that I giggled at, as Johnny is trying to decide if he should risk leaving his house or not: I accepted the risk of cardiac arrest, muttered a flurry of f**ks and charged out into the day…. . I could just imagine him frozen with inaction, then finally just going for it. And then he says Of course I was fine. Man, this guy is in desperate need of some therapy.
FN 120 The scene with Tatiana. Is this real or imagined? It just seems way out there that this woman who was one of Zampano’s readers would offer herself in this way to Johnny after he went over there simply for some library book lists. And then for her to do what she did to him at the end? I’m just wondering what the point is of all the graphic sex scenes Johnny is involved with in relation to the story? I remember Ami, you are working on a theory that the entire HoL is all made up anyway. So, what do you make of all of Johnny’s encounters with all these women?
The footnote right above FN 121 that says “So sorry”. I laughed when I read that. It’s as if Johnny was transcribing notes and accidentally used German instead of English for the phrase “building plan”? And then just apologized to the reader in the footnotes? If I’m reading that right? So odd.
OK, so we get to the King Minos story again. And I’m just wondering why it is crossed out in the first place? Did we discuss why in a previous thread? It seems important to trying to figure everything out so why would it be crossed out, and do we know who crossed it out? Was it Zampano? And I have noted that Amenemhet III of the XII dynasty in Egypt built for his mortuary temple a labyrinth near lake Moeris to protect his soul. I made note of this because it seems to be a possible tie-in to the theory that the Navidson house is all made up by Johnny (possibly?). If that is the case, then this labyrinth inside his head could be for protection? We know that he had some traumatic experiences as a child, the worst being, of course, the incident with his mother trying to strangle him.
And I’m pretty sure we might have already gone over this? But I made notes for this section anyway. FN 123 Athenian youth actually starved to death in the labyrinth = death from the complexity of the maze, not from the Minotaur itself. This made me wonder, do we know how Zampano died? He wouldn’t leave his apartment (stuck in his own “maze”?), and weren’t we told that there was no food in his refrigerator? Did he not eat (did he starve to death?). And now we have Johnny in his own labyrinth and afraid to leave his house, although at this point he is still doing so.
FN 131This footnote was completely confusing, but somehow it indicates that the center is important somehow. How this relates to the story, I’m not sure.
And now in my notes I wrote “feel like I’m on a wild goose chase in reading”. Again?! Lol. Yes, but this time we are getting redirected back to the same stuff we’ve already read. Over and over and over again…. And FN 136 even alerts us that this is going to happen by indicating and to force the visitor to go back upon the very same tracks that he has already followed in his wanderings. Then back to K on page 109, which I’ve already read, and funny (ha ha), it is about ECHOS!
Continue in next post...
Chapter IX, XIFN 138 --> Tom’s story (p. 253, Chapter XI) When I got to this I thought, “well, better just read this now”. lol. So I really enjoyed Tom’s Story. It was disturbing to imagine him there camped out all alone in the absolute cold and darkness of that vast place, just waiting. And waiting. And waiting. And then this spine-tingling quote: ”Ghosts always go first for the one who’s alone.” But then I also laughed at Tom’s humor, genuinely laughing at his silly jokes – the Day 2 “brown pants” story. Yes, it’s juvenile, but I Iaughed.
FN 249 Again, what’s up with all the sexual conquests?? And then Johnny meets Rachel (or Johnnie), who Johnny makes the comment that she was “probably closer to 6,000 years old. Something about her frightened me.” What? And then the incident with her throwing the dog out the window. It doesn’t sound “real” and makes me question “Johnnie’s” existence in the first place. Or Johnny did meet someone named Johnnie and he is somehow exaggerating things that actually happened?
FN 141 Johnny: ”the weird encounter with Tatiana seems to have helped me somehow. As if getting off was all I needed to diminish some of this dread and panic…..the downside is that this new discovery has left me practically beside myself, by which I mean priapic.” OK, I learned a new word tonight. lol. And now I’m thinking, these sexual conquests are all real, allowing Johnny to relieve some of his pain? And then Johnny has his encounter with Natasha, who says to him ”I guess love fades pretty fast, huh?” and FN 142 which is just a few blank lines. ?
I don't think I'm teasing apart any of this puzzle, but just confusing myself as I try to translate my notes here...
Chapter IXAll the part dealing with architecture I found a bit boring. I liked FN 144 in that it injected a bit of excitement in reading the boring stuff, if only it represented a sort of “hallway” through the pages of the book. And I’m sure you guys noticed that on page 136, the “hallway” blue box suddenly moves towards the margin of the book, similar to the changing walls and dimensions of the Navidson house. One thing I found odd as I was reading this footnote and what was NOT found in the Navidson hallway/labyrinth. It said that there was in fact no wood anywhere, no drywall, no wall studs . Makes me wonder, what the heck is the hallway made of? The exploration team was taking samples of the walls, is it simply just rock and earth, like a cave? ….. Oh, and then on page 118 it says the walls are a black-ashen substance….What is that? It doesn’t sound like a rocky cave to me.
FN 146, 147 Architectual buildings and names referencing specific people in relation to these buildings. Not sure what the significance of these two footnotes was except to bore me. I ended up skimming both of them.
FN 152 --> Chapter XVII = Navidson letter to Karen. ”What I mean to say is that our house IS God.” Meaning of this?? And we find out that Delial is the name of the girl in the photo he took that won him all the fame and “gory”. Navidson is clarifying who Delial is now? In this letter? If this was a source of tension between them, why didn’t he tell her before who Delial was? FN 367 Is Johnny indicating here that there is yet another code hidden within this letter specifically from Navidson to Karen? Sarah, you got this one? :)
I liked the expedition of Holloway, Jed, and Wax and how we get to see what happened down there. Holloway looking for something more concrete, like a creature. What was with Wax saying ”It’s kind of scary. Like you stop thinking about something and it vanishes. You forget you have pocket zippers and pow they’re gone.” (p. 126) Did this literally happen? I’m having such a hard time figuring out what is real or not.
FN 124 Johnny: ”Whenever I felt particularly bad I’d instantly cling to a favorite daydream…vivid…of a girl, a certain girl…” At first I thought that this meant Thumper, but I don’t think so because he relates this story that occurred in the past at a boarding school. But it presents evidence of precedence for Johnny imagining people to help him get through bad times.
FN 167 Did I miss where this was mentioned in the text? It seems it references itself. In fact, I got completely confused on pages 134, 135 in regards to following the text and footnotes. For example on page 134 below the line near the bottom of the page, is that text or a footnote?
And I think that's all I have right now.
Ami wrote: "I'm going to start this discussion off using a quote from Truant explaining how I felt while reading Chapter IX:"Ha ha! Perfect Ami. I was about pulling my hair out trying to navigate through chapter IX.
In fact, I'm sure everybody has noticed FN 123 is written in the shape of a "key..."
Um...no!
I wanted to give you two a little bit of a preview into my madness with the FNs:
At least you had a method to your madness with writing it all down. I had my finger bookmarking pages, losing my spot, jotting down where I was, finding my spot again. Super irritating.
.He had every intention of saving it; so why does she lie and dispose of it in the manner in which she does?
Why does Johnny attract these oddballs? That's why I wonder if this Rachel/Johnnie was actually real?
After the actual story about the dog is told, Johnny thought about going to visit Thumper... There's a subconscious recollecting occurring here.
Retreating to his "safe" place, similar to his boarding school incident. (FN 164)
Chapter XThe epitaph of this chapter says that Every house is an architecturally structured “path”….as one proceeds from the entrance through the sequence of spatial entities have been pre-determined by the architectural structuring of that space and one experiences the space accordingly. But at the same time, in its relation to the surrounding space, it is a “goal”, and we either advance toward this goal or depart from it.
I keep trying to figure out where the labyrinth myths and the house with its labyrinth within somehow fit together with the lives and minds of the characters in the story (or even with us, the readers). So, this epitaph seems an important part of the puzzle, especially the last line - we either advance toward this goal or depart from it. On page 244, the conversation between Reston and Navidson directs us to FN 219 which lets us in on Navidson’s history where we find out he had been quite frequently suicidal. If the labyrinth (of the mind) has something to do with protecting the soul (or is it something else entirely?), then the people who have been drawn into these labyrinths are people who have a traumatic history – Navidson and his photograph that caused him so much personal grief, Johnny and his mother who tried to kill him and his subsequent bouncing around foster homes. At the end of the two pages dealing with Navidson’s suicidal history (p. 333), it says The gli[ ]se rescued from that t[ ]r[ ]b[]le []ark warned that while paths might differ, the end might no[]. Anyway, I do not have this figured out at all, obviously, just that I’m trying to figure out where the entire labyrinth fits into the equation. (I guess that’s what the entire book is about, though?!)
So, to work through the chapter itself. I noted the line The Great Hall feels like the inside of some preternatural hull designed to travel vast seas never before observed in this world. This reminded me of the introduction thread where Paula had brought an interesting theory she came up with when she read the word “preadamite” (message 38): So, if we take that package of theories and wed it to the House ("practically preadmamite"), it goes to follow that the House is ancient beyond our very imagining, containing a darkness we cannot fathom...and filled with beings that are completely alien to what we know and can understand. I still don’t know if the labyrinth in the house is “real” or if it’s something that is occurring inside each person’s head. This is brought up a bit later: the house’s mutations reflect the psychology of anyone who enters it. (p. 165) So that Holloway’s creature comes from Holloway’s mind…..the tiny room Wax finds himself trapped within reflects his own state of exhaustion and despair; and Navidson’s rapid descent reflects his own knowledge that the Spiral Staircase is not bottomless.
Can Navidson’s house exist without the experience of itself? (p. 172) Does this mean that each person who enters experiences the house and its labyrinth because each person DOES have his or her own fears and doubts , albeit to different extents. And this is why the long hallway had no effect on the pets, they just run on through, because animals don’t have fears and doubts like humans do.
OK, so in chapter IX we are told that the long hallway and labyrinth of the house has no wood, drywall, nothing. The walls are blacken ash. But now we have Navidson and Reston walking down hallway upon hallway and opening door after door (via a doorknob), and then they come up on a door without a knob. So…it appears there IS wood and knobs and such? These doors and knobs surely can’t be also made of blacken ash? This is obviously a minor side point, but it just stuck out at me. I found FN 213 interesting in that knob are associated with OPENING doors and keys with CLOSING doors. I wonder how this relates to FN123 which is the crossed out text in the shape of a key that Ami pointed out?
I marked this passage after Jed is shot: The dark line where the eye persists in seeing something that was never there To begin with (and FN 215 indicates a typo so it should end with to begin with.) I don’t know what it means, but it seems significant.
I love the play with the words on the pages in this section. For example on page 232 the text is in the shape of the head of a bullet as the shot is fired through the door, and on page 233 the text is scattered all over the page as the bullet splinters the door panel.
Finally, Navidson’s history that we are referred to (p. 332-333), has anyone figured out what the brackets indicating missing letters represent? I initially thought it was yet another code so I started writing down all the missing letters expecting them to spell something, but it just looked like gibberish to me.
Chapter XIA biblical story of Esau and Jacob where in FN226, Denise Neiman relates the story of helping Zampano with his analysis of this story, and then one day comes to find his hands all bloody and his notes in shreds and in the garbage, which are also bloody. This reminds me of the red of the King Minos story which Zampano decided to do away with, even though they seem to be an important piece of the puzzle? Parallels are drawn between Tom/Navidson and Esau/Jacob. But then Holloway may also possibly represent Esau, so Navidson would be Jacob. Navidson was no different…And Jacob was indeed cursed, forced to wrestle for the rest of his life with this question of self worth. (p. 251) For one, when I started reading the Esau and Jacob story, I thought “sigh…yet another story/myth/history that we have to take into account and try to draw conclusions from”. I guess I’m getting a little tired of them? And probably also it just throws more pieces into the puzzle. Anyway, did anyone notice how many times the word “lost” appeared on these pages, both in the text and the footnotes? It seemed the word was being used as both in reference to the sense of self or of abandonment, but also possibly to the fact that parts of Zampano’s notes on the story were lost? I also thought of Johnny’s mind in the sense of him losing himself.
Analysis of Tom’s Story Passages I picked out: Tom’s ability to play in the halls of hell, those dolorous mansions of Isolation, Fear, and Doubt. Tom’s antics ultimately come to mean Sorrow…Sorrow is deep regret over someone loved. Again, we see indicated that the dark labyrinth represents each person’s isolation, fear, and doubts. But, I don’t know how this can be in harmony with a labyrinth also as a means of protecting the soul? They seem to be two opposite theories to me, especially since so far no good has actually come from entering the labyrinth.
Chapter XIIMore of the fun play with text on the pages. So, if Navidson was able to descend the staircase quickly because he knew there was a bottom, as indicated previously, why do you think that all of a sudden the staircase stretched so far leaving Navidson at the bottom? What is this an indication of? His fear of having to present and acknowledge the death of Jed and nearly dead Wax to the outside world? This would be similar to the grief he experienced after he took the photo of the poor girl.
FN *** I was surprised to find that Johnny has been clean and sober for six weeks, although sadly he lost his job. And yet, he is still having the anxiety attacks and his reluctance to leave the house has been heightened. Without the pain-dulling alcohol, drugs, and sex, he is so far gone that he has lost sense of time and is trapped inside his house. Within this same footnote, I marked this quote by Johnny which (similar to Ami in her Chapter X post) I felt summed up my feelings at this point in the book: ”….desire to finish The Navidson Record. It’s almost as if I believe questions about the house will eventually return answers about myself, though if this is true, and it may very well not be, when the answers arrive the questions are already lost.” (p. 297) Frankly, I just want to finish this so I can finally have it all figured out!
The same footnote also tells the story of a sinking ship, and a man trapped inside a small dark room who will meet with a different type of death than the other passengers met with. This man seems to parallel Johnny as Johnny has now locked himself inside his apartment, covered his windows with foil, thus darkening the place, and he is sinking into a despair which seems to be impossible to be saved from at this point. I see him following the exact same path as Zampano, dying alone in his apartment and not being found until much later.
Finally, the stairway stretching incident and Navidson’s rope snapping occurs simultaneously with Johnny’s fall into despair and locking himself away in his apartment. Then Navidson’s film runs out. (p. 312) Is Navidson’s film Johnny himself? This would go along with Ami’s theory that the film is made up? Maybe?
Linda wrote: "Chapter XThe epitaph of this chapter says that Every house is an architecturally structured “path”….as one proceeds from the entrance through the sequence of spatial entities have been pre-determ..."
I just wanted to throw this out there, off the top of my head, no books or notes on hand.
The Great Hall feels like the inside of some preternatural hull designed to travel vast seas never before observed in this world.
Linda, I remember this part distinctly and made notes to discuss because I associated it with Noah's Ark...Didn't it have three levels? These three levels I equated to the three narratives we're dealing in this the book...Zampano's, Truant's and ours- It's multileveled.
anyone notice how many times the word “lost” appeared on these pages, both in the text and the footnotes? I also thought of Johnny’s mind in the sense of him losing himself.
Yes, I think it is just as you say, in reference to the sense of self or of abandonment, but also possibly to the fact that parts of Zampano’s notes on the story were lost...I also attributed it to re-emphasize Navy's state of mind and Holloway as well. Truant, obviously has abandonment issues; Zampano (if he exists) is lost; Navy is lost in his mind and obsessed with the hallway, as is Holloway; and I'm not speaking for anybody else, but I'm a little lost too.
Again, we see indicated that the dark labyrinth represents each person’s isolation, fear, and doubts. But, I don’t know how this can be in harmony with a labyrinth also as a means of protecting the soul?
At the core, we hide our isolation, fear and doubt, vulnerabilities within our soul...It's the weakness we shield, preventing it to surface. I base this on the thought our souls are, like us, flawed. I thought the labyrinth, essentially this story, is a means of protection because we all have stories safeguarding us from one thing, or another. Truant's life intermixed with Zampano's narrative is a labyrinth within another labyrinth, it's Truant's way of giving us a convoluted map into his life...?
Ami wrote: "I associated it with Noah's Ark...Didn't it have three levels? These three levels I equated to the three points of view we're dealing in this the book...Zampano's, Truant's and ours- It's multileveled."Ah...interesting - I like that theory. I did not make the association with Noah's Ark (I have a very limited biblical background to fall back on).
and I'm not speaking for anybody else, but I'm a little lost too.
Ha ha. Yeah, I should have added myself in there as well, as you can probably tell from my posts. :)
At the core, we hide our isolation, fear and doubt, vulnerabilities within our soul...It's the weakness we shield, preventing it to surface.... it's Truant's way of giving us a convoluted map into his life...?
OK, that makes sense. And this would tie in with FN 131 where it says in most beliefs it is difficult to reach the centre. it is an ideal goal, which one can only attain after a 'hard journey'. And every life, even the least eventful, can be taken as the journey through a labyrinth. (p. 113) :)
Linda wrote: Chapter IX, XIIILinda wrote: "Chapter IX, XI
FN 138 --> Tom’s story (p. 253, Chapter XI) When I got to this I thought, “well, better just read this now”. lol. So I really enjoyed Tom’s Story. It was disturbing to imagine h..."
First, a favorite quote from this chapter that I giggled at, as Johnny is trying to decide if he should risk leaving his house or not: I accepted the risk of cardiac arrest, muttered a..."
There are so many moments where I find myself laughing out loud due to either the actual humor written into the narratives, concepts, or just my exhaustion! :)
FN 120: The scene with Tatiana. Is this real or imagined? It just seems way out there that this woman who was one of Zampano’s readers would offer herself in this way to Johnny after he went over there simply for some library book lists.
I'm beginning to think his daliances with these beautiful women are mere figments of his imagination, unfortunately. The placement for these interactions gives me pause because, from what I've noticed, they take place after a visual, or auditory hallucination of some type...No matter how big or small. I don't mean this in a bad way at all, but knowing what we do of his appearance as well, I just don't see how he attracts these "hot, beautiful women," with whom he shares few words. I can completely see him charming them because Johnny can be very charming, but these women don't really share much with Johnny aside from idle chit chat, or insight into Zampano's life which is very non sexual. I want to believe he's totally getting down and dirty, I do; gosh, if anybody needs to get laid in this book, it's Johnny...No doubt. Right?
And then for her to do what she did to him at the end? I’m just wondering what the point is of all the graphic sex scenes Johnny is involved with in relation to the story? I remember Ami, you are working on a theory that the entire HoL is all made up anyway. So, what do you make of all of Johnny’s encounters with all these women?
Yes! The graphic nature of the sex alone...It's so carnal and raw, yet so very manipulated with salacious detail giving it a very inorganic feel, and unfortunately more imaginative than real. As you've read, we're not talking about standard missionary sex evolving into doggy to finally reverse cowgirl positioning; this is some hardcore prostate engaging, seed disbursement specific debauchery...Didin't you think?
The footnote right above FN 121 that says “So sorry”. I laughed when I read that. It’s as if Johnny was transcribing notes and accidentally used German instead of English for the phrase “building plan”? And then just apologized to the reader in the footnotes? If I’m reading that right? So odd.
Yes, the bauplan...This made me think about the distress signs image in the appendix and previous discussions about the L, and el-The sign itself mean "not understood."
OK, so we get to the King Minos story again. And I’m just wondering why it is crossed out in the first place? Did we discuss why in a previous thread? It seems important to trying to figure everything out so why would it be crossed out, and do we know who crossed it out? Was it Zampano?
We did discuss FN123 in pieces, but it's coming together for us now having been referred to it so many times...It's "key" to the story and many of your ideas, I find plausible as to the importance of the myth and how it applies to the narratives as a whole. In Chapter XIII, Johnny says to us in FN 298 Whether you've noticed or not-and if you have, well bully for you-Zampano has attempted to systematically eradicate the 'Minotaur' theme throughout the Navidson Record. Big deal, except while personally preventing said eradication, I discovered a particularly disturbing coincidence, but we don't know what exactly it is, until, I think a page later in this chapter...Which would be that Johnny is the one "eradicating" the myth from the narrative (336). Truant has an image in his mind he can't make heads or tails of, it's about Zamapano, he's trapped inside Johnny, fading, dying perhaps...his voice getting fainter, still echoing in the chambers office head. Truant can clearly see himself, he's in a black room, his belly is brass and he is hollow-This all very similar to Perilaus' devlish chamber mentioned in FN301 comparing Chad overhearing Holloway's suicide to those of Roman's listening to Perilous' chamber, and here is the kicker...Supposedly the tyrant Phalaris killed the inventor Perilaus by placing him inside his own creation, Johnny seems to be in control of Zampano's legacy, if it exists, and can therefore manipulate it how he feels fit(337-338). I don't know if Zampano really exists, but I see parallels between him and Navy more so now, and I definitely don't think the "Navidson Records" exist but instead serve as a metaphor instead; so, maybe by process of elimination, he really doesn't? On page 117, Truant writes...Love at First Sight having been written by a blind man, albeit sly, passionate too?, the blind man of all blind men, me,-don't know why I just wrote that-, it's as if they are one in the same...
***
My question to you is, FN 123 is in the shape of a key; what does FN 295, the other reference to the Minotaur myth look like to you...Is it a bullet, a plunger?
And I have noted that Amenemhet III of the XII dynasty in Egypt built for his mortuary temple a labyrinth near lake Moeris to protect his soul. I made note of this because it seems to be a possible tie-in to the theory that the Navidson house is all made up by Johnny (possibly?). If that is the case, then this labyrinth inside his head could be for protection? We know that he had some traumatic experiences as a child, the worst being, of course, the incident with his mother trying to strangle him.
What I most question about this section of reading the (IX-XVI) is how comparable my questions and thoughts are to the very same one's Truant is asking, I feel he's bringing us closer to Pelafina and the closer we get to the crux of their relationship, the better we will derive an answer...How am I so transformed? Where, I wonder is the Phalaris responsible for lighting this fire now sweeping over my sides and around my shoulders? And if Zampano is gone-and I suddenly know in my heart he is very, very gone-why does strange music continue to fill that black room? How is it possible the pipes in my head are still playing? And who do they play for? (338). Didn't Pelafina "accidentally" burn a young Johnny with scalding oil from a pan giving him those "swirling oceanic scars on the majority of his arms, back and chest? I want to come back to this in the next section for sure, I'm hoping to have a more confident answer.
FN 131:This footnote was completely confusing, but somehow it indicates that the center is important somehow. How this relates to the story, I’m not sure.
I thought this emphasizes the state of the mind when observing without taking real time to notice; we base what we see on a preconceived notion/idea. But the real point, I would think, is based on man's need to centralize amidst nature and the environment, which is actually chaotic. Everybody is on some sort of journey to achieve, or better understand some thing or ideal, and we can only observe it subjectively in reference to our frame of reference.
And now in my notes I wrote “feel like I’m on a wild goose chase in reading”. Again?! Lol. Yes, but this time we are getting redirected back to the same stuff we’ve already read. Over and over and over again…. And 'FN 136' even alerts us that this is going to happen by indicating and to force the visitor to go back upon the very same tracks that he has already followed in his wanderings. Then back to K on page 109, which I’ve already read, and funny (ha ha), it is about ECHOS!
Well, I let you in to the madness I went through, but it's a maze and there are different paths to the center, apparently. I really failed in this aspect because I would think each path renders a different message, I'll admit, I didn't have the patience or intrigue available to pursue the true understanding of each individual path. Although, I truly do believe, nobody except MZD 'truly' really understands.
FN 138 --> Tom’s story (p. 253, Chapter XI)
What a breath of fresh air these sections were...I was laughing too and the Captain's request for brown pants!! And I too, made note of the very same quote you posted about ghosts and the type of person they go for. Tom's assumptions of this monster is that it wants to consume him, not take him to torture, or abduct, but to consume...I'm cold, I'm scared shitless, and I feel like I'm about to be eaten alive any moment (254). In relation to the dynamics occurring in the house, it would seem as if the house too, is slowly attempting to "consume" each inhabitant.
Truant's insight into Tom's creatures, born out of the absence of light, shaped with his bare hands, seem able to exist in that place, though all of them are as mutable as letters, as permanent as fame, a strange little bestiary lamenting nothing, instructing no one, 'revealing the outline of lives really only visible to the imagination is also rather thought provoking, I thought-Is he saying the value of life assessed by the spectator is subjective?
FN 141:And now I’m thinking, these sexual conquests are all real, allowing Johnny to relieve some of his pain? And then Johnny has his encounter with Natasha
How does one go from a piece of poetry to a heart wrenching beauty to the details of a drunken one night stand...What kind of picture would you draw? Maybe he's recalling from memory his experiences and confusing them with his reality, I think. His one night stands, there's another trend to them...He begins to immediately feel panicky, and bad again losing sense in the aftermath of each occurrence. It was also in this FN he refers to himself as "blind," which I made reference to in another question.
FN 142, the blank lines
I think we fill these lines in as we perceive it.
I liked 'FN 144' in that it injected a bit of excitement in reading the boring stuff, if only it represented a sort of “hallway” through the pages of the book.
Yes, our first bout with visceral reading; but pursuing the blue box before it went black was the most exciting. It didn't last for me with the other pieces of the puzzle on each page; in fact, I read them in a counterclockwise motion with each section, reading them in a series of lefts with the narrative first, then all the blue boxes, and so on. On page 141, the red striked out text, which reads Picture that. In your dreams; it was just that for me...No longer a dream, but a nightmare instead.
And I’m sure you guys noticed that on page 136, the “hallway” blue box suddenly moves towards the margin of the book, similar to the changing walls and dimensions of the Navidson house.
I did! I chalked the blue box off as the hallway representative of how deep Holloway and crew delve into the mysteries of the hallway (pages 119-141); and the disoriented FNs indicative of the floor plan of the house beyond the hallway because it describes a layout in no way reminiscent of any modern floor plans let alone experiments in design (120-134 FN 146). I thought FN 146 was telling of going deeper and deeper into the labyrinth to find no end... The Terra Armata hut his is a good place to end.
FN 152 --> Chapter XVII = Navidson letter to Karen.
I only read the first FN associated with Rilke about leaving your room, or something. I didn't read the chapter. I'll save my response for that section...BOY, was it good! :)
I'll continue in the next post...
Chapters IX,XIII Cont'dLinda wrote: "Ami wrote: "I'm going to start this discussion off using a quote from Truant explaining how I felt while reading Chapter IX:"
Ha ha! Perfect Ami. I was about pulling my hair out trying to naviga..."
Linda wrote: "Chapter IX
All the part dealing with architecture I found a bit boring. I liked FN 144 in that it injected a bit of excitement in reading the boring stuff, if only it represented a sort of “hallw..."
FN 148--> Exhibit One
This FN is a bibliography, of sorts, for all of the architecture references.
FN 167 Did I miss where this was mentioned in the text? It seems it references itself. In fact, I got completely confused on pages 134, 135 in regards to following the text and footnotes. For example on page 134 below the line near the bottom of the page, is that text or a footnote?
Thank you! I thought I was the only one; so, I guess, we have FNs which are missing references in the narrative. Doesn't Truant make reference to this, within the section of course, about how some FNs were written before replicating the narrative?
Why does Johnny attract these oddballs? That's why I wonder if this Rachel/Johnnie was actually real?
Jeez, the list of conquests and other lists had my eyes hanging out of my head, but my stomach turning at all the stereotypical dysfunction associated with most of those women. There was no judgement on my part, while reading, I felt sadness and grossed out by the onset of unbreakable cycles.
Page 127 Holloway Shooting in the Dark
Good grief, you could see this coming a mile away, couldn't you? Bloody freaking Holloway! Was he going to shirk any responsibility for Wax by hiding in the depths of the hall? I couldn't believe he was trying to kill them!
Page 129, Truant Reminiscing
He is constantly craving feminine attention; probably due to his absent mother/Mommy complex (nothing novel), but what was interesting about this part is that Truant being influenced by his past is further illuminated here. His credibility is also in question when he mentions the same guy who explained my attachment to junk also believed I'd made most of my past up just to impress him. Doesn't seem like much has changed since his story telling childhood days. Taking this into consideration, doesn't it shed more light into how credible his interactions with most of these women are?
The scarring on his arms, from his elbows to his wrists, due to a pan of corn oil at age 4...Pelafina!
Chapters X-XVI
Did you think the narrative at the top of the page was representing the house and text at the bottom to be the hallway and beyond the stairwell?
the labyrinth and how it applies to the reading
Hmmm, I'm not completely sure about the maze and Minos myth. You already know my idea about the metaphor the labyrinth could serve. We'll revisit this!!!
I still don’t know if the labyrinth in the house is “real” or if it’s something that is occurring inside each person’s head. This is brought up a bit later: the house’s mutations reflect the psychology of anyone who enters it. (p. 165)...Can Navidson’s house exist without the experience of itself? (p. 172) Does this mean that each person who enters experiences the house and its labyrinth because each person DOES have his or her own fears and doubts , albeit to different extents. And this is why the long hallway had no effect on the pets, they just run on through, because animals don’t have fears and doubts like humans do.
See, I don't think the house exists; so, for me the hallway doesn't exist either. The hallway and labyrinth as a metaphor exists within all of us and because of this how we deal with it is subjective. Holloway self destructs, Navy becomes over the top obsessive compulsive, Karen slowly implodes and Tom is consumed. You are right, they all have their own fears and doubts and will project accordingly in terms of their perception of the hallway...And yes, about the animals. Reston experiences motion sickness due to the changing nature of the house-how cool was the association of his nausea to his inner ear or the inner labyrinth of his psyche (179).These changes in dimensions reflect the psychology of anyone who enters it...The house becomes the self. Wax's room, where he is cornered, reflects his own state of exhaustion and despair. Thought it was interesting how the perception of dimensions from child to adult are due to epistemological dimension rather than bodily dimensions (167).
So…it appears there IS wood and knobs and such? These doors and knobs surely can’t be also made of blacken ash? This is obviously a minor side point, but it just stuck out at me. I found FN 213 interesting in that knob are associated with OPENING doors and keys with CLOSING doors. I wonder how this relates to FN123 which is the crossed out text in the shape of a key that Ami pointed out?
I think you're brilliant..What a great connection! But now the assessment, hmmm... Let's come back to this too. I want to see what you think of the other image created by other FN with red text.
I'll continue later...Edit 4/1
I love the play with the words on the pages in this section. For example on page 232 the text is in the shape of the head of a bullet as the shot is fired through the door, and on page 233 the text is scattered all over the page as the bullet splinters the door panel.
I did enjoy this, but I feel this nuance gets lost in the abyss because there's so much of the visceral nature present. Also, now that I think about it, I think FN 295 does resemble a bullet to me more so than a hypodermic needle plunger.
Pages 332-333, Navy's Suicide attempt...has anyone figured out what the brackets indicating missing letters represent? I initially thought it was yet another code so I started writing down all the missing letters expecting them to spell something, but it just looked like gibberish to me.
I too attempted to make sense of the missing letters, but we're told in Chapter XIII some of Zampano's narrative was destroyed by ash way too copious for cigarette tappings, and anyway Zampanò didn't smoke. What we end up reading in the narrative with brackets is the attempt of Johnny salvaging instead of reconstructing (323). Isn't this odd because he picks and chooses what he's copying directly and rewriting?
Some other thoughts in IX
These pills, like dots, raised and particular, look more and more like some kind of secret Braille spelling out the end of my life...reminded me of Pelafina's similar statement about her own red, blue and yellow pills, and the color coded keys for the locks on the door to the hallway (179, 340, Appendix II-E). It leads me to believe all things will slowly fade to black.
The addition of a Ken Burns illustration of the "Navidson Record," I'm sorry, I laughed and shook my head...SO weird! Please!
Linda wrote: "Chapter XIIMore of the fun play with text on the pages. So, if Navidson was able to descend the staircase quickly because he knew there was a bottom, as indicated previously, why do you think th..."
Linda wrote: "Chapter XI
A biblical story of Esau and Jacob where in FN226, Denise Neiman relates the story of helping Zampano with his analysis of this story, and then one day comes to find his hands all blood..."
Chapter XI
Chapter VII actually brought us to the beginnings of Chapter XI weeks ago as we started down the staircase and Charles Baudelaire was brought to our attention...I think the quote is actually meant for to bring us back to the psyche of Zampano/Johnny.
Truant hits the nail on the head for me, yet again, with One thing is for sure: it did disturb me. There's just something so creepy about all the violence and blood. I mean over what? This? Arcane, obtuse and way over-the-top wanna-be scholarship? Is that what got to him? Or was it something else? Maybe it really was too personal. maybe he had a brother. A son. Maybe he had two sons. Who knows. But here it is. All that's left. Incoherent crap (249). This book, for me, is really more times than not, "way over-the-top wanna-be scholarship." It did make think why Zampano would take the Essau/Jacob story so personally; but it also brings to light if Johnny is encapsulating the character Zampano, Johnny also had a brother who didn't live very long according to Pelafina, and it was at that point at which the "iceberg" hit the Titanic for Pelafina-She never got over the loss of her unborn child.
rzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
The root meaning "to tear apart, to shatter" (251). The narrative has been "torn to pieces..." Did this not resemble torn paper to you, frayed edges? So bloody clever!
Will pursuing photogrophy and fame to fill the emotional void...-lost parents (250). This could bring it back to your observation about the number of times "lost" has been written into the narrative. All the main characters have "lost" something, or someone.
Tom's Story
I made note on the very same passage as you did about how Navidson had for the first time seen what love the years he never should have missed. Or should have missed all along...This could tie in with the FN about subjective centers of the mind and how we only see what we do because of our frame of reference.
Chapter XII
So, if Navidson was able to descend the staircase quickly because he knew there was a bottom, as indicated previously, why do you think that all of a sudden the staircase stretched so far leaving Navidson at the bottom? What is this an indication of?
I think it wanted to keep him from escaping; more so than the rest of them. Navy's headspace was in a hell of its own at the time; His marriage was on the skitz, torn about his brother, Delial, Holloway's presence...The hallway/mind/subconscious was consuming him, right?
His fear of having to present and acknowledge the death of Jed and nearly dead Wax to the outside world? This would be similar to the grief he experienced after he took the photo of the poor girl.
Wow, I didn't think this was his plight. I thought this was Holloway's issue on top of his false sense of confidence and depression. You're right, it could be another Delial situation. :)
Frankly, I just want to finish this so I can finally have it all figured out!
Preach! I'm with you, but then we read about Tex's tale and learn not to wonder about the end but paid more attention to the tale preceding the tale...Easier said than done, right Linda? LoL? Tex's tale wasn't inundated with convoluted FNs and scavenger hunt type narratives. As much as I would like to be done, I'm not going to stress about the ending either. Indicative of my reading process, preparing myself to the notion this story may not have a meaning maybe, or nothing at all (297). There's a meaning, it's a beautiful meaning, but we have to derive it organically, not force it.
Finally, the stairway stretching incident and Navidson’s rope snapping occurs simultaneously with Johnny’s fall into despair and locking himself away in his apartment.
Yes, exactly. We find ourselves with Johnny midway through August (296). Like you said, he doesn't realize he's been gone for 3weeks, but then he does?, Boss tells him to check-in to a facility because he looks terrible, he's been hibernating in his studio insulating the room with egg cartons...Measuring tapes have been nailed to the floor, but so far, the dimensions have remained true to the mark and he's been drug, alcohol and sex free for 6 weeks. In spite of this, it doesn't prevent his attacks, and finishing the "Navidson Records" is the only thing that keeps him going.
I'm not finding this book to be hair raising scary at all, but every so often with a line like this...<>For almost an hour, I waited, rested...Then all of a sudden I heard something clatter behind me...Just off to the side there was the third quarter...It's been falling for at least fifty minutes, the shifting of space and dimensions leaves my eyes bulging out of my head (305)!!!
Then Navidson’s film runs out. (p. 312) Is Navidson’s film Johnny himself?
I see this parallel of Johnny and Navy becoming very clear as we progress into the final stages of this book. There are many similarities between the two. The hallway in the film serves as a metaphor for the subconscious and the film a metaphor of a journey we all find ourselves on...The search for truth by fighting the fight within ourselves, with our own self-created monsters.
This would go along with Ami’s theory that the film is made up? Maybe?
As much as I would like to take credit for theory, remember, Johnny tells us in the introduction ...Zampano's entire project is about a film which doesn't even exist...Furthermore, most of what's said by famous people has been made up...Those that took the time to respond told me they had never heard of Will Navidson let alone Zampanò (XIX-XX). The commonality between HoL and IJ, the Entertainment in particular, JOI created it in order to finding a better way to communicate with his son; to me, it seems as if HoL is an ode from a son to his father...Johnny writing for his father?
The same footnote also tells the story of a sinking ship, and a man trapped inside a small dark room who will meet with a different type of death than the other passengers met with. This man seems to parallel Johnny as Johnny has now locked himself inside his apartment, covered his windows with foil, thus darkening the place, and he is sinking into a despair which seems to be impossible to be saved from at this point. I see him following the exact same path as Zampano, dying alone in his apartment and not being found until much later.
I agree completely with you and made the exact connection. Right before the story of the Atrocity, Johnny says, I'm seeing now, not remembering but something else, resembling icy meadows and scrambles fora raft and loss...though not the same, a completely different story after all, built upon story after story, so many, how many?, stories high, but building what? and why...297-98)? Isn't this our experience with HoL as well?
Some other thoughts in XII
I found a heavy hand of Pelafina's influence throughout XII, especially in Johnny's narrative...Did you?
Letter of salt read by the sea...and I too have lost the Atrocity (300)...She makes reference to the Seafarer poem when she quotes Great is the fear of the Lord, before which the world stands still (595).
Truant remembers a girl named Ashley he had fallen in love with her, but then the memory is quickly interrupted when he remembers instead a horror, but not horror, but another kind of -orro-(300)...Pelafina makes many references to "orro" in her letters to Johnny calling him her golden son del orro, which was also understood to come from the french as deloreaux meaning "pain." I talked about this in great detail in Chapters V-VIII, if you remember. Johnny's fishing expedition in Alaska also mentions "orro" quite a bit...Do you recall it?
How cryptic was Bye--bye Ashley and goodbye to the one you knew before I found him and had to let him go...Obviously, the Johnny from many years ago is gone and has been taken over by the new Johnny whose "crumbling biology" prevents the former from re-surfacing (300)? Again, another commonality with Pelafina..."crumbling biology."
FN 254
Not worth a rat's ass... My favorite FN EVER!
Check your page right before the Forward in HoL...Do you have a small black dot in the middle left of the page? If so, flip to page 312 with the dot before the Forward visible...What do you make of this?
Chapter XIII, XIV and Appendix II D & EMore Pelafina influences
Realizing a torn toenail during Will's ascent back up the staircase ignited the memory of De-...Delial came into my head which was awful (323). Made me think about Pelafina's words for Truant ...Remember your mother loves you, despite her crumbling biology. Also remember, love inhabits more than just th heart and mind. If need be it can take shelter in a big toe...A big toe for you then, I love you (587). Then of course, Truant stubbing his toe before plummeting down the stairs at the tattoo parlor.
The birth of Chad and how Navy remembers Karen's beautiful long fingers, this too reminded me of the similarities between Pelafina and Karen...There's also the habit of practicing their smiling into hand mirrors (323).
The letters from Pelafina helped Truant to become a master at creating a smoke screen; all the while planning for something else his final escape to Alaska and out form underneath the thumb of Raymond. The description of Raymond's demise as the Cancer had settled on Raymond's bones, riddling his liver and pancreas with holes (325). I think it was Sarah who mentioned something about "holes" in the section 1 reading...I have to go back and see how it apples because I remember thinking it did.
Edit 4/1 XII Cont'd
A moment comes where suddenly everything seems impossibly far and confused, depersonalized, the disorientation so severe I actually believe-and let me tell you it is an intensely strange instance of belief-that this terrible sense of relatedness to Zampanò's work implies something that just can't be...not made up by me or even for that matter Zampanò (326).
I was left dumbfounded after this "what came first, the chicken or the egg" segment...Did you think the same? What does this mean...That the possibility of Pelafina having written the "Navidson Records" could be accurate?
Truant is now in a state where he has no power and has resorted to canned goods, wicks and daylight, oh my god, did this not make you laugh...I missed effects of a dire situation in this scene, I really did. In fact, I'm still laughing to myself (326). Oh, his phone still rings but the power is out. Johnny too is confused by this, I on the other hand thought his power was never off...Only to realize in Chapter XV, or XVI, that his phone did "finally" get cut off.
He's bought a gun for that moment when I'm certain nothing's left. The thread has snapped, didn't this remind you of Navidson in the depths of the hallway, down the ever evolving darkness-It's the same wording? Then again, with similar wording from the narrative about Ashley...No sound even to mark the breaking let alone the fall. That long anticipated disintegration, when the darkest angel of all, the horror beyond all horrors, sits at last upon my chest...Black as ink, veined in Bee's purple. A creature without a vice. A voice without a name. As immortal as my life...Could this be Pelafina with the description of "veined purple" (327)?
Appendix B
From the Quesada and Molino song referenced in FN 171-173 on page 137...In the appendix he seems to want to remove it/strike it out, and it's written in red, similar to the Minotaur myth. The appendix encompasses a few different languages, including Hindi, I don't remember Zampanò being well-versed in anything other than Spanish and English...Am I wrong?
Redwood
Who is this, whoever it is...He sure seems ominous.
The House
I'm not even sure where to begin with the House in this chapter, but I will continue soon :)
Continuing 4/2
The house begins to crumble around the Navidson's as they attempt to evacuate it and chaos ensues, preventing a clean get away...Did we expect anything like this?
Navy is really one hell of a guy trying to bring everybody to safety in spite of a bad shoulder: Karen in the car with a concussion, Chad has been outside by the tree the whole time unbeknownst to anybody, Reston is awaiting safety and Tom is missing too. We realize Tom and Daisy are in tow, headed to the rear of the house amidst the shuddering and shaking, crackling walls and buckling floors, but what gets me is how their breath began to frost (345)!
Chapter XIV
Karen's Story
Karen's story, I'm finding difficult to believe...The love letters, the plane tickets to foreign places, expensive perfumes; she's constantly being pursued, she saves the love letters and hides them in her jewelry box...Why? If she's sad being with Navy, why not leave giving them both the reprieve they each needed from one another (343). Navy's approach to not hiding Karen's infidelities brings us back to FN 15 and the anagram titled poem about the iceberg and Titanic...Do you think he was allowing nature to take its course?
Pelafina's Locket
The locket shaped like a deer worn by Pelafina reflects some of the uncertainty I have felt in regards to her personality and choices, aside from being a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic; but Johnny seems have felt similarly when he says... there was something in its shape I resented. Most lockets I'd seen were small, round and warm.They made sense. Hers I didn't get... awkward, ornate, and most of all cold, every now and then blinking out odd bits of light, a warped mirror, attempting a reflection when she took care of it. For the most part only achieving a blur. What a reflection seen of the person through a piece of gaudy jewelry, I thought.
Brokenhearted as he slept along the Seine, Johnny reflects it's the way I felt, all emaciated and without company. Everything I saw in me somehow only reflecting my destitution. The locket coming back to mind as it hung around her neck, Johnny says, Sometimes, it made me hurt. Often it made me angry (350-51). He finally decides to open it, not realizing that it did and he found a love letter disguised as a thank-you letter written by him for Pelafina when he was only eleven years old. I couldn't help but focus on the love/thank you aspect of this letter. I found her words for her son in the letters she wrote him to be very reflective of a mother's love for her son (as I've said before), but Johnny's letters to his mother were probably just as indicative of a son's love for his mother...Don't you think, it's almost as if they're one in the same voice?
Theories So Far...
1. House and Hallway, as well as the Navidson Record Film do not exist...Metaphors for the subconscious
2. Navidson Record film does not exist; therefore, Zampanò does not either. Perhaps, a facet of Johnny's mind like the characters in the film.
3. Pelafina, possibly wrote the Navidson Record/House of Leaves
4. Nobody accept Pelafina is real, the book is an ode to somebody, but to whom?
Ami wrote: "Johnny also had a brother who didn't live very long according to Pelafina, and it was at that point at which the "iceberg" hit the Titanic for Pelafina-She never got over the loss of her unborn child."Oh my goodness, how am I not remembering this bit of information??!! Thank you so much, Ami! (was this in her letters?)
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "Johnny also had a brother who didn't live very long according to Pelafina, and it was at that point at which the "iceberg" hit the Titanic for Pelafina-She never got over the loss of he..."Yes, there was also a hazy memory/hallucination of a woman giving birth in his narrative from Section 2 reading (V-VIII). Let me go back to that thread and pull it for you. :) I remember thinking it was either his own birth, or somebody else's.
Ami wrote: "Yes, there was also a hazy memory/hallucination of woman giving birth in his narrative from Section 2 reading."Thanks Ami. I don't have time to properly reply to your posts right now, but I had to thank you for that bit. I don't know how I could have missed it.
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "Yes, there was also a hazy memory/hallucination of woman giving birth in his narrative from Section 2 reading."Thanks Ami. I don't have time to properly reply to your posts right now..."
Linda, it's FN 62 and (view spoiler).
Ami wrote: "I'm beginning to think his daliances with these beautiful women are mere figments of his imagination, unfortunately. The placement for these interactions gives me pause because, from what I've noticed, they take place after a visual, or auditory hallucination of some type...No matter how big or small."I think you must be right. I mean, Johnny seems like a nice guy, but still, something with him racking up all these hot women doesn't make sense. I will have to check passages for the hallucinations happening before the women.
seed disbursement specific debauchery
lol! Most certainly!
Johnny seems to be in control of Zampano's legacy, if it exists, and can therefore manipulate it how he feels fit(337-338). I don't know if Zampano really exists, but I see parallels between him and Navy more so now, and I definitely don't think the "Navidson Records" exist but instead serve as a metaphor instead; so, maybe by process of elimination, he really doesn't?
That makes total sense. And if Zampano didn't exist, who else didn't? What about Flaze? All the women who read to Zampano? The cats?....
My question to you is, FN 123 is in the shape of a key; what does FN 295, the other reference to the Minotaur myth look like to you...Is it a bullet, a plunger?
Yeah, I don't know how long I've stared at this trying to figure out what it was. But I missed the shape of the key, for Pete's sake, and it was obvious!
But, my thoughts did hover around it being a bullet, but that doesn't quite feel right to me.
But the real point, I would think, is based on man's need to centralize amidst nature and the environment, which is actually chaotic. Everybody is on some sort of journey to achieve, or better understand some thing or ideal, and we can only observe it subjectively in reference to our frame of reference.
:) I think I had these thoughts kind of swirling around my head, but you articulate them very well.
Although, I truly do believe, nobody except MZD 'truly' really understands.
Ha ha. I think you're probably right.
Tom's creatures, born out of the absence of light, shaped with his bare hands, seem able to exist in that place, though all of them are as mutable as letters, as permanent as fame, a strange little bestiary lamenting nothing, instructing no one, revealing the outline of lives really only visible to the imagination is also rather thought provoking, I thought-Is he saying the value of life assessed by the spectator is subjective?
To be honest, I'm not quite sure. This quote is really confusing to me. I thought it was more along the lines of we each create our own demons. Sort of how the house takes on each person's fear? Like when Jed (I think?) was in that small room dying, he felt very constricted and claustrophobic, and thus the small room. But, I may be way off here. "Create your own demons" probably isn't what I'm trying to say.
Ami wrote: "Doesn't Truant make reference to this, within the section of course, about how some FNs were written before replicating the narrative?"This is when rereading this book would help out a bunch. :)
Good grief, you could see this coming a mile away, couldn't you? Bloody freaking Holloway! Was he going to shirk any responsibility for Wax by hiding in the depths of the hall? I couldn't believe he was trying to kill them!
I know! This is the part that I could see in my head playing as a movie.
Chapters X-XVI
Did you think the narrative at the top of the page was representing the house and text at the bottom to be the hallway and beyond the stairwell?
Totally. I love the way the text is played with visually on the page.
See, I don't think the house exists; so, for me the hallway doesn't exist either. The hallway and labyrinth as a metaphor exists within all of us and because of this how we deal with it is subjective.
Yep, I am on board with this now, of course. I wrote this long before I was sure of anything. :)
Holloway self destructs, Navy becomes over the top obsessive compulsive, Karen slowly implodes and Tom is consumed. You are right, they all have their own fears and doubts and will project accordingly in terms of their perception of the hallway.....The house becomes the self.
I know we've talked about the similarities between Karen and Pelafina (practicing smiling), and there are similarities between Johnny and Chad (school fights). Besides the Karen/Pelafina connection, I wonder if the rest of the family and associates are separate bits of Johnny's psyche. Tom - he is down with the weed and drinking (Johnny has his drugs and alcohol binges). Holloway - he seemed to go crazy (like Johnny seems to some extent). I would have to think about the other people more and their connections to Johnny, but I've been thinking of this.
The addition of a Ken Burns illustration of the "Navidson Record," I'm sorry, I laughed and shook my head...SO weird! Please!
ha ha! I shook my head at this too.
Ami wrote: rzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzThe root meaning "to tear apart, to shatter" (251). The narrative has been "torn to pieces..." Did this not resemble torn paper to you, frayed edges? So bloody clever! "
I didn't pick up on this, but that IS clever!
why do you think that all of a sudden the staircase stretched so far leaving Navidson at the bottom? What is this an indication of?
I think it wanted to keep him from escaping; more so than the rest of them. Navy's headspace was in a hell of its own at the time; His marriage was on the skitz, torn about his brother, Delial, Holloway's presence...The hallway/mind/subconscious was consuming him, right?
Yep. That was my thought too. He's got way too much to deal with to be able to just walk out of there. He is too consumed by all of it to be able to leave and properly function.
I'm not finding this book to be hair raising scary at all, but every so often
For the most part, me either. Mostly at the beginning when the hallway was discovered, and then in the next section.
I see this parallel of Johnny and Navy becoming very clear as we progress into the final stages of this book. There are many similarities between the two.
Yep, it's starting to make sense, that Navy IS Johnny.
Pelafina makes many references to "orro" in her letters to Johnny calling him her golden son del orro, which was also understood to come from the french as deloreaux meaning "pain." I talked about this in great detail in Chapters V-VIII, if you remember. Johnny's fishing expedition in Alaska also mentions "orro" quite a bit...Do you recall it?
I don't remember the "orro" part in the fishing expedition, and I didn't mark the word so I didn't go back to look it up. The "del orro" as "deloreaux" = pain is interesting.
Check your page right before the Forward in HoL...Do you have a small black dot in the middle left of the page? If so, flip to page 312 with the dot before the Forward visible...What do you make of this?
I don't see a black dot on the facing page before the Forward?! :( But there is one on page 312. I didn't know what to make of it....
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "Johnny also had a brother who didn't live very long according to Pelafina, and it was at that point at which the "iceberg" hit the Titanic for Pelafina-She never got over the loss of he..."Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "I'm beginning to think his daliances with these beautiful women are mere figments of his imagination, unfortunately. The placement for these interactions gives me pause because, from wh..."
That makes total sense. And if Zampano didn't exist, who else didn't? What about Flaze? All the women who read to Zampano? The cats?....
Isn't this the funny thing? For me, so far, anything contrived and over the top (like the graphic sex) hasn't felt "real;" but reading about Lewd, Thumper and "Flaze," their names allude to their personalities/occupation (we touched on this in Section 1 reading discussion)...It's forced, I don't believe they exist either. Which brings me to Johnny Truant, I think you know where I'm going with this...Crazy!
But, my thoughts did hover around it being a bullet, but that doesn't quite feel right to me.
The bullet does make sense to me because it seems to be a means to an end...Somebody (Johnny/Zampanò, Holloway) either has a gun, has died or is dying by a gun (Holloway, Jed, maybe Johnny (we find him bloody with a shotgun in the introduction)), or is shooting somebody else with a gun (Holloway->Wax/Jed, Johnny->himself, or somebody else). The key closes doors, but the bullet ends the ability to ever open again.
Oh my goodness, how am I not remembering this bit of information??!
You didn't miss it, it's pure speculation on my part. When I read FN 62 I couldn't figure out who this child could have been, I thought it was Johnny reiterating a story and so I thought it was about a previous child she lost.
To be honest, I'm not quite sure. This quote is really confusing to me. I thought it was more along the lines of we each create our own demons. Sort of how the house takes on each person's fear? Like when Jed (I think?) was in that small room dying, he felt very constricted and claustrophobic, and thus the small room. But, I may be way off here. "Create your own demons" probably isn't what I'm trying to say.
We do create our own demons; therefore, everybody's demons person specific...Ever changing, ever evolving, and mutable.
I wonder if the rest of the family and associates are separate bits of Johnny's psyche. Tom - he is down with the weed and drinking (Johnny has his drugs and alcohol binges). Holloway - he seemed to go crazy (like Johnny seems to some extent). I would have to think about the other people more and their connections to Johnny, but I've been thinking of this.
WOW! How about that...These other characters could be depicting the different aspects of Johnny's personality! I'm on board with this. Alright, so let me ask you this...Who do you think wrote the Navidson Record? :)
I don't see a black dot on the facing page before the Forward?! :( But there is one on page 312. I didn't know what to make of it....
I thought I was on to something, but it may be an inconsistency. I can't figure out how to upload images, or else I'd show you what I was talking about myself :S
Ami wrote: "Chapter XIII, Appendix II D & EMore Pelafina influences
Realizing a torn toenail during Will's ascent back up the staircase ignited the memory of De-...Delial came into my head which was awful (3..."
I edited Message 14 and added Chapter XIV to it
Chapter XV & XVIFN 329
If the house represents Navidson's mother, the house as an incarnation of her, and Navy explores that loss that which he first identifies with: the vagina, the womb, the mother; then this parallels Johnny Truant's plight and his unresolved issues with his mother as well...Does it not (358)?
Douglas Hofstadter
He described this film as a horizontal eight...Isn't this essentially an infinity symbol (364)? I might be reaching for straws, but the number eight makes an appearance quite a few times, and usually in reference to time (eight minutes, eight seconds, eighth second, eight months ago), age (eight years old), or distance (eight feet high). See index.
Out of the blue
Thumper calls out of the blue to invite Johnny over for a home cooked meal and surprisingly, Johnny declines the initiation saying eight months ago I'd have been out the door. Today for whatever sad reason, Thumper no longer has any influence over me (365). She doesn't move him to the core anymore, he may have turned a new leaf for the better, but instead it's because he's a prisoner in his own home and mind.
Another IJ association too, but it shows up in these narratives often as well and usually when we are reading about a change in mind, or plan (XXII,105, 365)-There could be more, these are just the one's I made note of.
Delial
Delial...Finally, there's an association (368)! By seeing her name on the back of Navy's photograph of a starved and dying Sudanese girl preyed upon by a vulture...Something about the picture motivated Karen to want Will back-Delial was clearly not a dalliance of Will's, but more of a pure sentiment for someone or thing. This scenario is based on the photograph taken by Kevin Carter in 1994, per FN 336, but I distinctively remember this image when it was published...Did you? Will Navidson received the Pulitzer for the exact same image Carter took, doesn't this further cement the possibility of the film not existing?
XVI
The first two pages of this chapter reminded me of the chronologically listed subsidized time in IJ as I read the facts associated with the "Navidson Record."
Dr. Mel O' Geary
A petrologist from Princeton has agreed to help Reston and Navy examine the wall specimen extracted from the exploration. What's funny about this name is that it's an anagram for "Ogelmeyer..." Dr. Ogelmyer is the psychiatrist Johnny told us about in Chapter IX right after Reston experiences nausea/motion sickness while descending down the stairs (179-80 & 371). I don't see a connection, do you...Why the anagram? If you remember in Chapter V-VII, there was a FN which led us to Zampanò's obituary; there, Billy R. Reston's name was another anagram found in the name R. William Notes?
Chemical make up of specimens from exploration
You mentioned earlier what the walls were made of in the hallway, but so much of the information which would tell us so is missing except that Paula's discovery in Section 1 about the make up being Preadamite, or created by a meteorite...FN340-41 states Scientists estimate the universe unfolded from its state of infinite destiny, which then leads us to information that tells us there's a typo: 'destiny' should read 'density' (373). I had a hard time wrapping my head around "infinite density," only to realize this could only pertain to something along the lines of a black hole, where mass and volume are not fixed-Talk about deep (every pun intended).
Over seventeen pages missing due to a cracked bottle of German ink wiping out almost forty pages, not to mention seeping into the carpet below where it spread into a massive black bloom. The footnotes survived only because I hadn't incorporated them yet (376).
FN 354
Johnny tells us he grew up on certain words, words I've never mentioned to Lude or anyone for that matter, words orbiting around my mother mainly, sometimes whispered, more often written in letters my father would never have let me read had he lived; and how understanding those words he sensed in them all kinds of adventure (379). Some of these words being auditory hallucinations, verbigeration, word salad, derealization, depersonalization, the understanding of them did not take him on the adventures as he had hoped to be Edenic places full of gold leaf, opal or intricately carved pieces of jade (379). Pelafina, on page 588, makes the same references to Johnny in a letter asking him about the treatment he was receiving from his foster parents.
He thinks about his mother more and more and the way her life failed her, humiliated her with impulses beyond her command (380). He remembers her beautiful hair, the sweet full voice, her handwritten letters full of strange colored words...Loaded with encouragement and most of all 'faith' (380). But the letter we've questioned and most struck by is the letter she wrote him admitting her attempt on his young life, and we find Truant now talking about it. He vaguely remembers her choking him, in an awful way her confession did change the way I began to view my scars, their oceanic swirls now spelling out suspicion and much to much doubt for me to address properly (380). However, he also says she was referring to a completely different event when my father was finally forced to take her away to The Whale, when I was seven, a day I cannot for the life of me remember; so she must have been referring to the corn oil episode (380).
You would think Truant would be gaining some insight from the "Navidson Records;" specifically, Holloway's inclusion of a rifle and his ultimate suicide in the final exploration, yet Truant not only buys himself another gun, but also a rifle (381). If a parallel exists here, it doesn't look very promising for Johnny; after all, we did find him in a delirious state with an abundance of blood on his person in the introduction...I even lie with them in bed, hiding under my sky "blue" sheets...Safety off (381).
Questions and Findings
I've been obsessed with the letter L, the word el and it's significance, the bauplan, and all I could come up with was a single L means "fuel is required," and "not understood" for the bauplan (both found in the Appendix). In XVI, Johnny writes how he's drawn to written legacies (private lands surrounded by great bewildering oceans (a description I don't entirely understand even as I write it down now (though the sense of adventure about words that little 'l' making so little difference, appeals tome-ah but to hell with the closing parent)he)see)s) (sic)..parent he sees (379). Any clue?
Since Section 1 we've wondered about the index of words. I mentioned it was reiterating "fragmented thought," it's a "schizophrenia index." There's a reference to "The New Haven Schizophrenia Index," on page 379. I went back to the message itself and pulled the specific words Truant makes a point of emphasizing Known...Some ...Call... Is... Air...Am on page 71, it is fragmented thought, but it's also Nom sum qualis eram spelled phonetically. We were on to something Linda, you and me :)
Ami wrote: Edit 4/1 XII Cont'dI actually believe-and let me tell you it is an intensely strange instance of belief-that this terrible sense of relatedness to Zampanò's work implies something that just can't be...not made up by me or even for that matter Zampanò (326).
...What does this mean...That the possibility of Pelafina having written the "Navidson Records" could be accurate?
I had the same thought, wondering if this meant Pelafina wrote it, but wasn't sure. I don't know, but this somehow doesn't feel right to me, that she wrote it. But the phrase "sense of relatedness to Zampano's work" really stuck out for me and I had underlined it, but I'm not sure what to make of it.
Truant is now in a state where he has no power and has resorted to canned goods, wicks and daylight, oh my god, did this not make you laugh...
I wasn't laughing, I just felt sorry for the poor guy!
The thread has snapped, didn't this remind you of Navidson in the depths of the hallway, down the ever evolving darkness-It's the same wording?
Yes, I think I mentioned before how it feels like Navy and Johnny are following parallel paths. But I missed the thread snapping phrase - you're right, it is the same wording. I did underline the phrase of Johnny's on the same page of I hear the roar, faint at first but getting louder - which to me is similar to the growl Navidson et al hear in the house. (but then Johnny's roar ends up being a party next door...)
Black as ink, veined in Bee's purple. A creature without a vice. A voice without a name. As immortal as my life...Could this be Pelafina with the description of "veined purple" (327)?
There is something about this purple, but I'm not sure. Do you think it means Pelafina like we had speculated in previous chapters? I also thought of Pelafina, but also wondered what the significance of "bee's purple" meant. Bee's purple is ultraviolet. What does this have to do with Pelafina or anything else? This part that you quoted does make me think of Pelafina: That long anticipated disintegration, when the darkest angel of all, since Johnny remembers his mother trying to strangle him, it makes sense that she would be thought of as his "darkest angel".
I don't remember Zampanò being well-versed in anything other than Spanish and English...Am I wrong?
I honestly don't remember which languages Zampano knew. And I must have missed the Hindi in the appendix? I'm looking and I can't find it.
FN 171-173 on page 137...In the appendix he seems to want to remove it/strike it out, and it's written in red, similar to the Minotaur myth.
This red portion that's been struck out is interesting. but where a young man will forgive the stray, an old man will cut it out. Youth always tries to fill the void, an old man learns to live with it. It took me 20 years to unlearn the fortunes found in a swerve
Swerve? Didn't Johnny's father supposedly die in a car accident? The "swerve" made me think of this. And "20 years" - how old was Johnny when his father died, and how old is he now? DID Johnny's father actually die? Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but it felt like something in this maybe pointed to some Zampano/Johnny relation.
The house begins to crumble around the Navidson's as they attempt to evacuate it and chaos ensues, preventing a clean get away...Did we expect anything like this?
I actually did NOT expect this! But again, it looked like a perfect horror movie in my mind.
Karen's story, I'm finding difficult to believe...The love letters, the plane tickets to foreign places, expensive perfumes; she's constantly being pursued
Also, this line: They were just a means to escape the closeness of any relationship, particularly the one with the man she loved most." Doesn't this sound an awful lot like Johnny's encounters with so many women? Granted, they are far less romantic, but they also seemed very far-fetched (and probably didn't happen).
What a reflection seen of the person through a piece of gaudy jewelry, I thought.
That locket was strange. I had not thought of it as a reflection of Pelafina's personality, but that totally fits.
I couldn't help but focus on the love/thank you aspect of this letter. I found her words for her son in the letters she wrote him to be very reflective of a mother's love for her son (as I've said before), but Johnny's letters to his mother were probably just as indicative of a son's love for his mother...Don't you think, it's almost as if they're one in the same voice?
"One in the same voice." Are you suggesting that Pelafina is not real either? That both "voices" are Johnny's? And why is it a thank you note? What did he thank her for?
Theories So Far...
1. House and Hallway, as well as the Navidson Record Film do not exist...Metaphors for the subconscious
2. Navidson Record film does not exist; therefore, Zampanò does not either. Perhaps, a facet of Johnny's mind like the characters in the film.
3. Pelafina, possibly wrote the Navidson Record/House of Leaves
4. Nobody accept Pelafina is real, the book is an ode to somebody, but to whom?
1. Definitely
2. Also yes. Excellent deduction, Watson. Although, now I'm wondering about previously in this same post, the part of the red FN 171-173 that Zampano struck out talking about a "swerve". What does this mean? I don't know why I'm stuck on that.
3. Hmmm...I had not thought of this. I'm still thinking along the lines that Johnny wrote the House of Leaves.
4. Again, I have not thought of this possibility at all. I am still assuming that Pelafina and Johnny are both real.
Phew. Let me hope I can continue to post a bit more tonight. That took longer than I expected...
Ami wrote: "Chapter XV & XVI"If the house represents Navidson's mother, the house as an incarnation of her, and Navy explores that loss that which he first identifies with: the vagina, the womb, the mother; then this parallels Johnny Truant's plight and his unresolved issues with his mother as well...Does it not (358)?
"house as vagina". Well, that's a new one for me, lol. But yes, this makes total sense in relation to Johnny, if our theory is that Navy represents Johnny.
horizontal eight...Isn't this essentially an infinity symbol (364)? I might be reaching for straws, but the number eight makes an appearance quite a few times
Wow!! I did not pick that up, very good of you, Ami. But now, what do you think infinity means in all of this? Is this a reference to the human mind, in a way? The interior of the house can be infinite, as is the mind?
but instead it's because he's a prisoner in his own home and mind.
He's lost/trapped in the infinity of his mind. Yep.
I distinctively remember this image when it was published...Did you? Will Navidson received the Pulitzer for the exact same image Carter took, doesn't this further cement the possibility of the film not existing?
No, I don't exactly remember this at the time, but when I saw the photograph I know I've seen it before. Yes, this does in fact point to the film being made up.
XVI
The first two pages of this chapter reminded me of the chronologically listed subsidized time in IJ as I read the facts associated with the "Navidson Record."
:) I can totally see that now.
Dr. Mel O' Geary
...What's funny about this name is that it's an anagram for "Ogelmeyer..." Dr. Ogelmyer is the psychiatrist Johnny told us about
Geez. Stuff like this flies right over my head. How do you even see these anagrams, Ami??! I mean, seriously.
Perhaps the anagrams don't really mean anything necessarily in the context of the story, but instead are more like, whoever is writing the House of Leaves is hard-pressed to come up with original names in the course of writing, and the anagrams are just a shuffle of other names because it's simpler to do. I honestly don't know. :/
I had a hard time wrapping my head around "infinite density," only to realize this could only pertain to something along the lines of a black hole, where mass and volume are not fixed-Talk about deep (every pun intended).
Black hole was exactly what I was thinking. But, I guess I'm a bit confused. We seem to be talking of Johnny's mind, his memories of his mother and childhood, what he remembers and what he represses, and how all of this has an effect on him. But on the other hand we are also talking of how old the earth is, and beyond, and of black holes? I somehow don't get the connection.
word salad
I loved this phrase. :)
You would think Truant would be gaining some insight from the "Navidson Records;" specifically, Holloway's inclusion of a rifle and his ultimate suicide in the final exploration, yet Truant not only buys himself another gun, but also a rifle (381). If a parallel exists here, it doesn't look very promising for Johnny
No, it doesn't look promising for Johnny. I don't know why I was surprised when Johnny went and bought the rifles, but I was.
Johnny writes how he's drawn to written legacies (private lands surrounded by great bewildering oceans (a description I don't entirely understand even as I write it down now (though the sense of adventure about words that little 'l' making so little difference, appeals tome-ah but to hell with the closing parent)he)see)s) (sic)..parent he sees (379). Any clue?
The only thing that makes sense to me is the "written legacies" being what he is writing (if he is writing it, that is) - so The House of Leaves. "little 'l' making so little difference", I don't understand which word is being referred to, it seems like a word that we would be able to remove the 'l' and thus form another word, but which one? And "a parent he sees" - I just don't have a clue. :(
Known...Some ...Call... Is... Air...Am on page 71, it is fragmented thought, but it's also Nom sum qualis eram spelled phonetically
Nice! Ami, this is all you. :) I've only taken one quarter of Latin at all, and it has long been forgotten.
ETA:
little 'l' making so little difference, appeals tome-ah but to hell with
"to me" is missing the space, so reads "tome", which means "book". But that was probably obvious, and I'm not sure what it means anyway besides being another reference to "written legacies", and possibly The House of Leaves.
Not sure how much more I have over what you brought up, but let me try and decipher my notes.Chapter XIII
small numbers
Starting on page 313, did you notice the tiny numbers in the left-hand margin? On page 313 there is a small "1", then on page 314 a small "2", etc. They count up throughout the chapter until they reach #12 on page 344. On page 333 it says that the Holloway Tape comes in 13 parts (not 12, so maybe unrelated). Anyway, any thoughts on the significance, if any, of those numbers?
Karen/Pelafina
...believes the house enabled Karen to slowly break down her reliance on Navidson, allowing her a greater and more permanent distance...She merely replaced one dependency for another without confronting what lay at the heart of both.(p. 315) I had brought up the possibility of Navy, Holliday, Tom, etc being various parts of Johnny's psyche. And we have seen parallels between Karen and Pelafina. I'm still not sure if Karen can also act as part of Johnny's psyche at the same time, I don't see why not as a son is part of his mother. So, what I'm getting at is I wonder if this quote somehow suggests Pelafina (Karen) pulling away from her son Johnny (Navy), but probably out of necessity and not by her will - she goes to Whalestoe because of her unstable mental state. If this line of reasoning is followed, then what are Pelafina's dependencies? Karen's dependencies are 1)Navidon, then 2)her children's need for her (I think?). Pelafina, once she's in Whalestoe, is awfully dependent on Johnny's letters to sustain her mentally within the institute. What was Pelafina's dependency before this? I feel like I'm rambling here and I might not even be onto something.
She [Karen] recognizes that the key to her misery lies in the still unexplored fissure between herself and Navidson. Without knowing it she has already begun her slow turn to face the meaning, or at least one meaning, of the darkness dwelling in the depths of her house. (p. 316) Again, who does Karen represent? If she is part of Johnny, then Johnny is facing is past, his repressed memories, the "darkness dwelling in the depths of her (his) house (mind)". Ami, likewise, you speculated that even Johnny could be fictional, and that Pelafina is writing The House of Leaves. So the theory that Karen represents Pelafina would also fit here. She is exploring what led to her mental breakdown? Her past?
Same page - Karen also packs away her small hand mirror along with her Feng Shui stuff, Bible, etc. Why do you think she packed away the mirror?
Navidson's escape
In FN 275 Navidson finally began concentrating on Karen. On Chad and Daisy....I thought about every time we'd gone to a movie together or a game....I remembered when Chad was born....Eventually I went into this daze and the hours began to melt away. Felt like minutes. Good memories allowed escape of the dark abyss of the maze.
Lude
I loved the old western theme of Lude visiting Johnny on page 324. his old Zippo drawn like a .44...drawn by the fella in the white hat, and as it turns out Lude was in fact dressed in white...which I guess means I would have to be wearing black....
Raymond/fear
Raymond's "lessons" --> I [Johnny] recognized just how much a little fear had helped me - after all I wasn't going to the hospital this time. I failed to see anger as just another way to cover fear. I planned my flight...I still would never have succeeded had I not received that September, only weeks later, my mother's words, a voice powerful enough to finally lift my wing and give me the strength to go. Johnny began to see a way out, but in essence, his mother saved him by giving him the strength to actually leave.
But then...(I also have noted this passage)...what if my attacks are entirely unrelated....brought on by my own crumbling biology, tiny flakes of unknown chemical origin already burning holes through the fabric of my mind....How then do you fly from that path? Ami - do you think this points to mental illness? Possibly inherited from his mother?
Johnny/Navidson Record
there's more than just The Navidson Record lying there....calling me to it...After all, I'm its source, the one who feeds it........without me it would perish. This makes me think that Johnny is the one who wrote The Navidson Record. But, then Johnny says I've gotten it all turned around....without it I would perish - THIS makes your theory more plausible Ami, that Pelafina wrote it and that Johnny doesn't exist. So...which is it?!
Chapter XIV
"leaves of feeling" (p. 350) - first reference to leaves meaning something other than paper? Layers (leaves) of the mind or psyche.
Chapter XV
Karen's transcript
I just have written in my notes "Ugh". I hated this part. It just felt like MZD said "let's see how many personalities I can fit in and have fun with how I think they would respond." I guess go at it, but I found it forced, and I had to force myself to read each entry.
Chapter XVI
I have nothing new here that you didn't already bring up.
Finally I'm done with this part. So tired....
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: Edit 4/1 XII Cont'dI actually believe-and let me tell you it is an intensely strange instance of belief-that this terrible sense of relatedness to Zampanò's work implies something that..."
I had the same thought, wondering if this meant Pelafina wrote it, but wasn't sure. I don't know, but this somehow doesn't feel right to me, that she wrote it.
Maybe once we discuss the final chapters, some of this may have more light shed upon it. Right now, I'm still all over the place as to who could have written it. All that I feel confident in is, again, the house and all the characters associated with it (Navy, Karen, Tom, Holloway, Wax, Jed, and the kids...Or Zampanò and Johnny (one of them, I just don't know who)) do not exist; and the connection between Johnny/Navy and Pelafina/Karen (strong maternal influence on these men)-They have all been created by someone to tell a deeper story. I've been rereading the Appendices the past couple of days revisiting some of the information we've already posted and I came across some new observations-I'll post them accordingly.
Appendix E
Letter dated 6/31/87...I live at the end of some interminable corridor.
Do you think it means Pelafina like we had speculated in previous chapters? I also thought of Pelafina, but also wondered what the significance of "bee's purple" meant. Bee's purple is ultraviolet. What does this have to do with Pelafina or anything else? This part that you quoted does make me think of Pelafina: That long anticipated disintegration, when the darkest angel of all, since Johnny remembers his mother trying to strangle him, it makes sense that she would be thought of as his "darkest angel".
I do associate purple with Pelafina, most definitely. I googled "Bee's Purple" and read they are attracted to this color and can only see in UV, blue, and green colors on the spectrum. As far as Pelafina is concerned ...I just think of her as the Queen Bee, the one without whom nothing would exist (in their respective environments) and she has the ability to see more than most?
I honestly don't remember which languages Zampano knew. And I must have missed the Hindi in the appendix? I'm looking and I can't find it.
It's Appendix B, page 545, we were referred to in Chapter XIII. Also, read the entry on page 543, dated 12/15/1974...I could create a son who is not missing: who lives beyond even my own imagination and invention; whose lusts, stupidities, and strengths carry him farther than even he or I can anticipate... And on page 547, dated 12/23/96, the entry ending in ...I miss you. Why end a journal entry with "I miss you?" This book is a letter!
Appendix B
This last entry was written in 1996; however, if Zampanò died in 81, then how is it possible for him to have written...Only those entries denoted with a letter are written by somebody else FN 432?
****
Something else I noticed in my revisit...Appendix E. It's nothing but coded letters and acrostics. Here's something for you to ponder, a letter written to Johnny from Pelafina, dated 4/5/86:
So sad really. So many years destroyed. Endless arrangements-re. zealous accommodations, medical prescriptions, & needless other wonders, however obvious-debilitating in deed; you ought understand-letting occur such evil?
My Dear Zampanò, Who Did You Lose?
Is she referring to his wife and son, you think?
Swerve? Didn't Johnny's father supposedly die in a car accident? The "swerve" made me think of this. And "20 years" - how old was Johnny when his father died, and how old is he now? DID Johnny's father actually die?
Supposedly...He was in a mack truck that "swerved" into a ditch and caught on fire (585). He wasn't driving it. Johnny was born 6/21/1972, and Zampanò's obituary is missing dates but the year is 1981, so that makes Johnny 9? I'm thinking he didn't die in 81 and yes, he very well could be Johnny's father.
Doesn't this sound an awful lot like Johnny's encounters with so many women? Granted, they are far less romantic, but they also seemed very far-fetched (and probably didn't happen)...That locket was strange. I had not thought of it as a reflection of Pelafina's personality, but that totally fits.
I found it difficult to believe because she didn't seem to be a sentimentalist. She's being pursued left and right, but her heart is not anywhere to be seen. She kept her letters in a jewelry box and Pelafina kept her letter in a locket. The funny thing about Pelafina's letter is that I no longer think Johnny wrote it, I think Zampanò wrote it. The Whalestoe Letters are coded love letters written between Zampanò and Pelafina...Both women are saving letters from lovers. This might also explain the authorship of the "Pelican Poems..." another written record by Zampanò for Pelafina?
One in the same voice." Are you suggesting that Pelafina is not real either? That both "voices" are Johnny's? And why is it a thank you note? What did he thank her for?
I'm suggesting it's one in the same voice being Pelafina. I think Pelafina is the voice for Johnny/Navy and the hallway is representative of her mind. In his obituary it says he was a "a crop duster in Nebraska, carrier in Alaska, and for one winter flew a spotter plane off the coast of Norway"(585). Didn't Johnny move around the midwest, salmon fish in Alaska and didn't the Atrocity set voyage off the coast of Norway?
Theories Revisited
1. House and Hallway, as well as the Navidson Record Film do not exist...Metaphors for the subconscious
Yes for the subconscious, specifically Pelafina.
2. Navidson Record film does not exist; therefore, Zampanò does not either. Perhaps, a facet of Johnny's mind like the characters in the film.
Navidson Record does not exist, Johnny does not exist, and Zampanò does.
3. Pelafina, possibly wrote the Navidson Record/House of Leaves
Yes, with Zampanò.
4. Nobody accept Pelafina is real, the book is an ode to somebody, but to whom?
Pelafina and Zampanò exist, it's Johnny and the rest of them who are non-existent now. The book is a love letter.
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "Chapter XV & XVI"If the house represents Navidson's mother, the house as an incarnation of her, and Navy explores that loss that which he first identifies with: the vagina, the womb, ..."
Sorry, I got a little turned around in replying to your comments, but it's all there...:)
Anyway, any thoughts on the significance, if any, of those numbers?
Yes, I did notice it. I didn't associate it with Holloway's tapes, however, I thought it was yet another failed attempt at keeping all the records in order. From what I understand, there are papers everywhere.
I'm still not sure if Karen can also act as part of Johnny's psyche at the same time, I don't see why not as a son is part of his mother. So, what I'm getting at is I wonder if this quote somehow suggests Pelafina (Karen) pulling away from her son (Johnny), but probably out of necessity and not by her will - she goes to Whalestoe because of her unstable mental state. If this line of reasoning is followed, then what are Pelafina's dependencies? Karen's dependencies are 1)Navidon, then 2)her children's need for her (I think?). Pelafina, once she's in Whalestoe, is awfully dependent on Johnny's letters to sustain her mentally within the institute. What was Pelafina's dependency before this? I feel like I'm rambling here and I might not even be onto something.
I haven't associated Karen to be a facet of Johnny's psyche. I thought more so Pelafina because of their parallels, but maybe she could be an aspect of Zampano's as well? Karen goes into the hallway to save Navy, do you think Zampanò wrote House of Leaves (Navidson Records re-written), as a means to understand his wife and "potential" lost son...Find answers to save her? Do you think Pelafina could have written the Navidson Records for her "unborn" son we read about in FN 62 and what we discussed in the other thread? Her dependencies, I would think would be the same...Her husband and child.
She is exploring what led to her mental breakdown? Her past?
The second author is exploring, the first author (pelafina) is telling...This is what I think. I absolutely can't stand myself right now. You know, I wake up from dreaming and thinking about all of this, a lot, throughout the day. SMH.
Why do you think she packed away the mirror?
She was done with putting up the facade for all of those years.
Johnny began to see a way out, but in essence, his mother saved him by giving him the strength to actually leave.
this idea of saving and protecting is important, I think.
Ami - do you think this points to mental illness? Possibly inherited from his mother?
Yes, I sure do...Her letters point to this and his (so-called) narrative uses the same wording at different times.
But, then Johnny says I've gotten it all turned around....without it I would perish - THIS makes your theory more plausible Ami, that Pelafina wrote it and that Johnny doesn't exist. So...which is it?!
I'm going with the latter...Pelafina wrote it and Johnny doesn't exist (I can't help but think of the FN and our other discussion about the baby).
Layers (leaves) of the mind or psyche.
Yep, like an onion.You peel one layer away to reveal...More "onion."
I guess go at it, but I found it forced, and I had to force myself to read each entry.
It's how I feel about many of his footnotes.
But now, what do you think infinity means in all of this? Is this a reference to the human mind, in a way? The interior of the house can be infinite, as is the mind?
I think the infinity and references to the number "eight" mean exactly what you said, but also that life goes on. This book is representative of many different time spans, from the 50s-late 90s, not any one specific year...It's a reminder that time time continually progresses? For anybody not having read the whole book, this spoiler is not for you (view spoiler)
How do you even see these anagrams, Ami??! I mean, seriously.
I've worked every name I've come across since the beginning. Remember, I tried to attack the list of credits and wasn't very successful. It's either an acrostic or an anagram, in this book. In fact, you may be right (from V-VII) that list of credits may be an acrostic, I can't imagine he would waste a whole page full of names. Maybe we should look at it one more time.
I don't understand the point of the anagrams, however.
whoever is writing the House of Leaves is hard-pressed to come up with original names in the course of writing, and the anagrams are just a shuffle of other names because it's simpler to do.
yes, somebody who does't mind falsifying information...Again, this could also contribute to the credibility of the person(s) writing-They are losing their minds, after all?
But on the other hand we are also talking of how old the earth is, and beyond, and of black holes? I somehow don't get the connection.
whatever the reasoning behind the house, it's old...Very old. However we attempt to define it, as an actual hallway, as a metaphor of the mind, it is undefinable in its entirety-Nobody can fully understand the depths of the mind and what it is capable of and the same goes for the hallway.
Parent he sees
I get the feeling he sees Pelafina...The narrative beforehand is languid and dreamy about oceans and lands and adventure. I still don't understand the "l" either.
it's also Nom sum qualis eram spelled phonetically
I thought it was you who posted about this in Section 2 reading...?
Ami wrote: "I haven't associated Karen to be a facet of Johnny's psyche. I thought more so Pelafina because of their parallels, but maybe she could be an aspect of Zampano's as well? Karen goes into the hallway to save Navy, do you think Zampanò wrote House of Leaves (Navidson Records re-written), as a means to understand his wife and "potential" lost son...Find answers to save her? Do you think Pelafina could have written the Navidson Records for her "unborn" son we read about in FN 62 and what we discussed in the other thread? Her dependencies, I would think would be the same...Her husband and child.Since I thought that perhaps the Navidsons and others were possibly all part of Johnny's psyche, I was trying to fit Karen in there somehow. But you're right, she does fit more as a parallel to Pelafina. This entire time I've been thinking of Johnny writing HoL, so I'm trying to wrap my head around this other theory. Now Johnny doesn't exist as he's the lost son, but Zampano and Pelafino do exist. Hmmm....you could be onto something here, Ami.
The second author is exploring, the first author (pelafina) is telling...This is what I think. I absolutely can't stand myself right now. You know, I wake up from dreaming and thinking about all of this, a lot, throughout the day. SMH.
Yes, I get it now. I have been so confused, frankly, that I feel it's almost over my head to figure it all out, especially when I feel I'm onto something (Johnny writing HoL), but then having that FN 62 and the last bit of the book threw me for a loop!
It's how I feel about many of his footnotes.
I don't look forward to them like I did with IJ.
whatever the reasoning behind the house, it's old...Very old. However we attempt to define it, as an actual hallway, as a metaphor of the mind, it is undefinable in its entirety-Nobody can fully understand the depths of the mind and what it is capable of and the same goes for the hallway.
Nice explanation and tie-in to the "older than time" dating of the house samples taken to the lab to be dated.
it's also Nom sum qualis eram spelled phonetically
I thought it was you who posted about this in Section 2 reading...?
I don't think so? If I did, then I googled the Latin phrase. But I wouldn't have remembered how to say it and certainly couldn't have figured it out phonetically.
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "I haven't associated Karen to be a facet of Johnny's psyche. I thought more so Pelafina because of their parallels, but maybe she could be an aspect of Zampano's as well? Karen goes int..."Now Johnny doesn't exist as he's the lost son, but Zampano and Pelafino do exist. Hmmm....you could be onto something here, Ami.
You're going to hold me in great contempt in the next thread...I'm going to apologize to you right now. LOL!
but then having that FN 62 and the last bit of the book threw me for a loop!
Right? I was dumbfounded by it... Really!
I don't look forward to them like I did with IJ.
Makes IJ feel as if it were a breeze. Paula, unbeknownst to her, had the right idea after all in reading HoL before IJ? I thought I was better equipped to read HoL after IJ, but I find myself very frazzled while reading this. I felt more peace while reading IJ. :)
Nice explanation and tie-in to the "older than time" dating of the house samples taken to the lab to be dated.
Great! Now we have 99 other questions to be answered! :P
I'm glad all of you took the time to puzzle out all of this, because I've been completely lost! So many details and possibilities, it makes your head spin! I'm not sure what else to add to the commentary on this section, although I'm interested to see what more we learn about the Delial person, but that seems to be vastly important.Reading on, hope I get more clarity as we go.... although somehow I fee like that's not the point....
I'm having flashbacks to my mindset while reading this novel as I read your post...Head spin, is correct! :)At this point, who do you think wrote "House of Leaves...?" Do the three main characters (J, Z, & P) all exist for you, or does one and not the others, etc? Also, what do you make of the "house" itself?
although somehow I fee like that's not the point....
...Maybe? LoL! Is that cryptic enough?
I think they all exist at this point, although to what degree they are accurately depicted, I couldn't possibly begin to declare!
As far as Navidson, Karen, etc, probably not so much. But what all they represent remains to be determined, at least for me.
4th-25th Chapters IX-XVI
***For Those Wanting to Comment and NOT Actively Participate*** Please be mindful of our schedule and post accordingly...We welcome your presence, even if for a brief period.
DISCUSSIONS
... will proceed during and after the assigned week's reading. We as a collective (those of us who continuously showed an interest in pursuing a House of Leaves Buddy Read and whomever else actively participates) will determine together as to how to proceed after each assigned section ...i.e. speed it up, or slow it down-due to the visceral nature of this particular book.
...will post future (usually every 2-3 weeks) reading and posting schedule once, we as a collective decide on how to move forward with each section.
Footnotes Thread
Post any questions, comments, or thoughts, pertaining to House of Leaves footnotes here.
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We have all patiently waited to read/re-read House of Leaves, by Mark Z. Danielewski, for a while...The time is finally upon us, so let us assume our positions, mirrors in hand, and begin to delineate!