The Sword and Laser discussion

This book has gotten some fairly negative reactions, and understandably so given some of the subject matter, but I want to stick up for it. For me it was a good example of what the Sword & Laser is *for*: a book I wouldn’t have picked up of my own accord, but which I found very interesting and thought-provoking. Challenging topics handled in unexpected ways, odd pacing (slow start, loads of action in the middle, and then a long denouement), and a lack of easy answers. I finished reading it yesterday and I’ve been thinking about it more or less constantly since.

Some of the themes it explores: exploitation of children and aliens and where to draw the lines between necessary protections and unnecessary levels of control. Is it right for (view spoiler)[ the Dameii to be able to exploit their own resources? Is Prince Pao’s offer to Starreem a happy ending or just a different type of sexual exploitation? Is Prince Pao himself a happy character or a child who’s been warped by his upbringing? (hide spoiler)]

Also the effects of time, the importance of memory and the impact of beauty. I found (view spoiler)[ Cory’s death scene (hide spoiler)] very moving, and also a little bit disturbing. The effects of the nova and the time-flurries seemed simple at first but then as the story unfolded they were gradually revealed as more complicated. The fates of the characters who were affected by the time flurries were ambiguous to say the least.

The thread of the two sisters was probably the least successful part of the book for me - the sequence where (view spoiler)[ Baram triggers movement in Lady Paloma by repeating the name of a spaceship that just so happened to be the same as her horse felt deeply silly (a bit “save Martha!”) (hide spoiler)].

This isn’t a perfect book by any means. It is, however, packed with chewy ideas and I for one am glad to have read it.

Ruth, I would like to lend my voice to yours. I didn’t finish the book. It wasn’t rewarding enough for me to keep going. But, I’m glad I picked it up and I’m glad I got to be exposed to it within the community of the sword and laser. I got to hear a lot of different points of view about the book from thoughtful people. I really appreciate the fact that I get out of my niches and read things I wouldn’t necessarily try or even hear of except through the group.

“Exposed” is the right word.
😜

This is a good example of the central conundrum I have when evaluating books (and why mostly I now just choose to be selfish and evaluate them based on whether I like them or not). There are definitely some 'chewy' topics present in here (to borrow Ruth's term), but whether they're presented for a reader to chew on or whether they are present more flippantly is hard to figure out.

Is the child exploitation thing actually commentary, or is it just a reflection of the times? As others have noted elsewhere, and as came up in this recent lawsuit, this was much more pervasive during Tiptree's life than it is now: https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023...

Some days I feel like half of the acclaim for old dead authors is based on the fact that they're no longer around to just say 'oh, I threw that in there on a whim' and modern readers ascribing intent. Or worse, an author revealing some problematic ideology (as discussed in Dazerla's post) and modern readers deciding that rather than a viewpoint, this inclusion is an author's invitation to a discussion.

On other days, if I don't like the book that the viewpoints are wrapped up in, I often reject the validity of the viewpoints too. I disliked all the "gee whiz" dialogue stuff in here. I had the same structural complaints as Ruth - what's up with end dragging on so long and the author trying to redirect attention from everything that happened to a discussion of (view spoiler)[ that insidious beauty-spreading, civilization-destroying weapon/organism (hide spoiler)]?

As is usual, probably the correct view probably lies somewhere in the middle, but that isn't nearly as satisfying as landing on either adulation or condemnation.

Seth wrote: "Some days I feel like half of the acclaim for old dead authors is based on the fact that they're no longer around to just say 'oh, I threw that in there on a whim' and modern readers ascribing intent. "

I often said about my film school teachers that they often found a needle in a haystack when there was no needle. And no haystack.

Also, reminds me of this:

Hah. I remember reading an explainer from Emily St. John Mandel where she said she was on a panel talking about Station Eleven. Some professor asked her to elaborate on the deeper meaning behind her use of Miranda and the shipping industry in the novel to reference Shakespeare’s The Tempest. Or somesuch. She rather quickly deflated him when she told him that part was just that she was always interested in how the shipping industry worked.

I've started, then deleted, comments from this thread multiple times. That's mainly for Cory's(view spoiler)[ death scene. (hide spoiler)] Just this once I decided I didn't want to write a dozen paragraphs about it. So I'll just note that Tiptree is very much telling us what she is feeling at that point in her life. (view spoiler)[Cory's aging is sudden, but for Those Of A Certain Age, doesn't it feel like that? You fight twinges, aches, health issues, and then one day you look around and say yeah, I'm old. At that point you could pull a Heinlein and refuse to acknowledge it, or as Tiptree did, turn to reflection.

I'm with Tiptree on that, but it can also lead to a dark place. Physical issues affect mental health. Tiptree killed her husband and then herself, and while their friends say that was their plan, it was still a shame and a waste. Tiptree has told us exactly what led her down that road. It is a signpost and an inadvertent warning. (hide spoiler)]

Decided to keep these separate. As for Prince Pao, this good guy of the struggle, killer of the worst terrorist and savior of the locals being tortured, is the engineer of the kiddy porn. Or at least his family is. Late in the book he tells his intended that he was able to affect her mother's life in a positive way before her death.

Except that she entered the kiddy porn due to her mother's death. Which means that Prince Pao knew about them before that occurred, and was already engineering her into the spot where he could "rescue" her. It's grooming and exploitation.

Pao is only 12 and is described as looking more like a 10 or 11 year old.

So either pre-pubescent or just into puberty. So I'd rule out sexual grooming.

That's not to say his intentions at the end are pure and not part of a power play. He is a prince used to getting what he wants after all.

Tassie Dave wrote: "Pao is only 12 and is described as looking more like a 10 or 11 year old.

So either pre-pubescent or just into puberty. So I'd rule out sexual grooming.

That's not to say his intentions at the en..."

Agreed also the book says he's a couple of years younger than his intended. I feel uncomfortable saying one child can groom another although I guess it's possible.

Also, this might just have been the way I read it but I got the feeling they'd planned to meet there and that they'd met before. And the plan had always been for her to leave with him.

I listened to the podcast wrap-up of the book yesterday and I was somewhat upset that Tom and Veronica seemed to feel that they had to self-censor any positive opinions about this book. Please, please don't! We are all adults and capable of doing our own research into book choices so we can pass on books that might be triggering for us. I agree that this book was disappointing, but it did have interesting concepts (particularly the ambiguity about what the nova front actually was), that were unfortunately shadowed by other aspects of the book. Would I recommend it? No. Am I glad I read something by this writer, who has been influential in the genre? Yes. That is one of the goals of this book club, to expand our understanding as well as enjoyment of speculative fiction.

Tassie Dave wrote: "Pao is only 12 and is described as looking more like a 10 or 11 year old. So either pre-pubescent or just into puberty. So I'd rule out sexual grooming."

Dazerla wrote: "I feel uncomfortable saying one child can groom another although I guess it's possible."

Good points. I would agree with them except for a few passages. The book has ended its library loan so I can't quote chapter and verse here. From memory, best I can:

* Prince Pao makes reference to helping her mother before she died. That means he was involved in her life before the jet fuel incident, before she got involved in porn.

* Royalty in Pao's culture don't get to be like kids. They are around adults all the time.

* Royals in Pao's culture are supposed to be sexually experienced before they marry. Both sides, so including...I can't remember her name, but his intended.

The last two went in my head just as additional info, but when I tripped over the first my head went "wwwwaaaaiiitttt..." and the tumblers started clicking. When the pieces fell together I figured that Pao, his culture, royal family, or really a part of all three, set up the porn situation, so that his intended would be ready when he was. I'm being dispassionate here but it was really revolting to think about. As for Gridworld, either it was complicit or perhaps led by Pao's culture. He is not the heroic innocent he appears.

End of the month and I've been thinking about Cody's death scene since I read it. Started a post and realized it would be really lengthy, so take 2:

Cody's aging hits her suddenly and causes her to reminisce over a life completely finished. It's a viewpoint common in the aged. I feel the early start of this myself. Cory accepts her end and goes peacefully. Tiptree is essentially telling us how she feels at the time of writing. It is a partial look at what led her to the final act of her own life and therefore controversial in and of of itself.

It's a topic that has been addressed across the SF community. Heinlein wrote that older people should not reminisce, and instead keep struggling to the end. His characters certainly reflect that. The final line of Time Enough for Love is "You cannot die."

Tiptree having made me think about this topic, I noticed something in the latest Poul Anderson book on my reading list, Captain Flandry. This is about a religion being used to foment rebellion against the Terran empire. The central figure is a blatant riff on Jesus, and there is question about whether or not the religion is genuine. That question is answered by the end of the book, which I find to be too bad. There should never be a yes or no answer to faith. That's why it's faith.

The religion addresses a cosmic struggle between Elders, who want to push intelligent beings forward, and Others, who recommend acceptance:

"Will that level be of Elders or Others? Will we break old walls and reach, however painfully, for what is infinite, or will we find most harmonious, beautiful, noble way to move toward experience of oblivion?"

As for Cody, which did she do? Seems to me that she did both. She had a busy, purposeful younger life. She continued striving, trying to atone for her youthful actions by protecting the Damieii and even her own staff until moments before her death.