The Obscure Reading Group discussion

Our discussion begins with the first half of George Gissing's THE NETHER WORLD. Feel free to ask any question or make any observation you wish. Some ideas:

1. Similarities to and differences from Charles Dickens

2. Characterization -- realistic characters vs. stock characters

3. Social commentary

4. The architecture of Gissing's plot

5. Writing style

What did you like best and least in the first half of the book? Which characters speak to you (positively or negatively) more than others and why? What connections to the real world did you make while reading the first half of the book?

And so on and so forth!

I've been anxious for this discussion to begin, so I'll jump in.

Dickens ... let's see. Is this Dickens noir?

Clem is a great character. She's compared to a “a rank, evilly-fostered growth.”!

At this point, I'm very curious about Clara. I felt she was developed to be a heroine, but she's fallen out of the picture, so I'm expecting a shock when she returns.

Wuthering Heights is a favorite of mine. I know some people hate it, but for me this book has a similar dark and emotive quality. I wonder if anyone else is reacting to that, or maybe instead the pace and action? Or the ever-present social commentary?

So many brilliant characters in this book and such an absorbing story! I like the comparison to Dickens, not only with respect to the detailed character descriptions, but the many trials that they face in life. It's clear that Gissing had the plot all planned out and is revealing little nuggets slowly as we go along.

The social commentary is interesting. There are frequent references to the title - the nether world. But you get so absorbed in the characters and their daily lives, and while none of them are perfect for the most part they aren't wholly bad. I found it jarring when the author presents a personal view of how disgusting and squalid it all is.

I'm curious about whether Michael Snowden's plan will work out with respect to his fortune - it seems highly unlikely that no one will interfere. Beyond that, is being in the trenches really the best way to help the poor? Do you need to have someone who has suffered in the same way in order to truly appreciate the trials and tribulations of poverty?

I can't wait to find out what happened to Clara ! And I think she is my favorite character. She definitely has faults, but being headstrong is one way that she might elevate herself out of her circumstances. As we left her, it appears that she might have found a suitor who could help in that regard as well.

Gissing does feel like Dickens Noir to me. We see many of the same sort of scenes and people but there are few, if any, redeeming lights to give anyone even a passing moment of happiness. The descriptions of squalor here in the Nether World seem worse than those poor sections of Dickens’ London and they seem to cover a larger territory. It’s a long walk to escape them. And no doubt, the Nether people were expected to keep to their areas.

I also have a feeling of some social mobility in Dickens’s London, if not between classes then definitely within a class. Gissing seems to paint everyone on one level though they might live and act differently.

I’m very much looking forward to the second half of the book as I have been getting more and more caught up in the story. It’s difficult to be optimistic about any possible outcome with the narrator’s voice always there. I have a feeling we will know a lot about Carla soon from what’s been happening to date.

I was waiting for somebody to say something positive about the book, because, frankly, I am not enjoying it as much as I expected :)

Oh yes, the subject - the poor of London - is very familiar by the novels of Charles Dickens; but my, do I miss Dickens's sense of humour! His vivid characters! His dialogue!..
Is 'The Nether World' more realistic than, say, 'Bleak House'? Maybe, but also how much more depressing.
So my main impression so far is, I love Dickens because he's Dickens, not because he's Victorian.

I admit that the plot is interesting enough, but...
What did you think of the 'Jane shall sleep in the back-kitchen with the dead body' turn of events? I googled 'why did Gissing plagiarize Bronte' and it turns out 'Gissing respected Charlotte Brontë above all his novelistic predecessors'.
What I mean is, Jane Eyre lives with her cruel aunt whose cruel children mistreat her; as punishment, she has to sleep in a room where a relative died earlier; she has a nervous breakdown and gets ill, then is withdrawn from this house.
Jane Snowdon lives with a cruel woman whose cruel daughter mistreats her; as punishment, she has to sleep in a room where there's actually a dead relative; she has a nervous breakdown and gets ill, then is withdrawn from this house.
I gather this must be considered homage, only I enjoyed this episode more in the original version.

Then there's also this: there's a rich person who comes from overseas to make a poor child's life better; and there's another, criminal, person who wishes this first person and the child harm. This is reminiscent of 'Great Expectations', isn't it?

Also, I think Gissing overexplains the psychology of his characters, and nobody is really very likeable.

OK, now for the positive things.
I actually liked how new characters were introduced in the beginning: the old man walks into a bar and goes away, but we kind of stay in the bar and meet Jane; we follow her home, meet Clem; then we follow her to Sidney and so on. It's cinematographic and fluid.

I loved how one chapter finishes with the words, 'to keep her appointment', and the next one is called 'A Disappointment' :)
And, hey, Pennyloaf's name is funny - so there is a bit of humour after all :)

Kathleen, I agree, Clem is a vivid character. I immediately thought of 'Old Clem' from the blacksmiths' song in 'Great Expectations'. She's definitely strong and violent.
Also, she's Clem Peckover, and she's constantly (and overly) pecking at Jane (with the subtlety of a blacksmith's hammer).
So I kind of expected other names to make sense in this way, too, but I don't see anything else of this kind.

As for Clara, the chapter where she meets Mr. Scawthorne (oh, by the way, his could be a telling name!) is called 'Pathological', - this does not bode well for this character.

As you see, I like it that the chapters have names, and I like the names themselves. 'A Thrall of Thralls', 'Glimpses of the Past', 'Sunlight in Dreary Places' - they sound like names of poems.

I have a hard time with Dickens so I found this author much easier to understand. I like that the social commentary is on the other end instead of Jane Austin et al characters.

Kathleen. Thanks for reminding me that I've never read Wuthering Heights. Maybe there's a phobia I can use by way of excuse? Fear of Wuthering Heights?

Dianne. I, too, noticed the butt-inski habits of Gissing on those two counts. Many references to the title (OK, we get it) and then, the authorial intrusions for commentary. I'm more forgiving of the latter as I think it is a Victorian thing, like Prince Albert reading in the can.

Sue. I see as many redeeming light characters as I do mean-spirited ones. Chiefly Kirkwood, the poor guy. But yes, Clara, too. Jane, of course, who might be called a stereotypical sort in the same mold as Tiny Tim. John Hewitt, though he says some dumb things and takes some dumb actions, does them out of clumsy love.

Plateresca. I see this comment box has become a confession box. I've yet to read Bleak House. I suppose it'll be easier reading the Bronte first, as it is shorter, but I am allergic to heaths.

BarbaraW -- Enjoying more than Dickens? Good for you!

This comment is about the author's language and omniscience, using a couple of examples from Chapter II. Maybe it's typically Victorian, maybe it's "old, white male" superiority that we've grown sensitive to and repulsed by decades/centuries later. Maybe Gissing wasn't "old" when he wrote this, but the attitude is there in his pages.

It was the hour of the unyoking of men.
This is quite evocative for the opening line of the chapter, when factories and workrooms are disgorging their workers, letting them out to spend a few hours during which they might live for themselves. It almost seems sympathetic, even with the allusion to being mere beasts of burden. Then a few paragraphs later, the author pulls us up short with they (the toilers) do it all without prospect or hope or reward save the permission to eat and sleep and bring into the world other creatures to strive with them for bread.... Is he saying that children of poor workers are "creatures", less-thans of children in the higher classes? These sorts of statements are sprinkled throughout the book. And keep me at a distance.

When we meet Mrs. Hewitt, that poor lodger in the Peckover house who was in dire need of contraception, Gissing gives us this opinion of her for our acceptance: You would have classed her at once with those feeble-willed, weak-minded, yet kindly-disposed women, who are only too ready to meet affliction halfway, and who, if circumstances be calamitous, are more harmful than an enemy to those they hold dear. (Emphasis mine on the "at once.") Say wha?! Yeah, sure, I have a category of women in my human taxonomy filing system exactly like that. You too, right? Worse, WTF does the second part even mean?

Gissing is telling his story and the characters and situations he puts them in engagingly show well how hard life can be. But there is a lot that is off-putting, not in the display of selfishness or meanness (after all, some of the best stories have good villains), but his judgmental interjections, his turgid constructions and "I'm up here, they're down there" creatures or beasts mentality as their creator keeps me separate from his creation. It prevents the deep empathy that the best stories engender.

I expected this to be dreary, and thought I might not like it, so I've been very pleasantly surprised, and find lots of positives here.

Excellent points about the comparisons with Jane Eyre and Great Expectations, Plateresca! For me, there were plenty of interesting characterizations and turns in the story to forgive any likenesses--though I have to admit, Michael Snowden does sound like the convict Magwitch from Great Expectations in my head!

I love that Gissing puts us in the muck. It isn't as cheerful as Dickens, but I'm glad of that. I actually cringed a little at the entrance of Syney's friends Sam and Bessie Byass. They do provide some comic relief, but their silliness put me in a Dickens frame of mind that didn't seem quite right for this story.

This feels like a nether world point of view, whereas Dickens, though he shows us the poor and suffering, is usually doing it from an outside point of view, or someone fallen into trouble, not someone who never knew anything else. I think that is another point Gissing keeps hitting--that only insiders know what this is really like. I haven't read anything like this, other than maybe Orwell.

And I like the complexity of the characters. For example, Jane. Yes she's rescued and all, but she is scarred in a fundamental, believable way, in her difficulty learning.

Kathleen wrote: "I expected this to be dreary, and thought I might not like it, so I've been very pleasantly surprised, and find lots of positives here.

Excellent points about the comparisons with Jane Eyre and Gr..."



You find Jane a complex character? To me, there's not enough of her to develop. In the beginning, she's the Cinderella stock character punching bag for step-sister Clem and the mean old stepmother with the Dickensian name of Peckover (though nothing beats "Pennyloaf").

Then she's just a quiet, demure, kind thing once Grandpa arrives. The model of quiet, gentle, unassuming female characters meant to be seen and not heard. So far, at least.

In my mind, then: So far, so stock.

Ken wrote: "she's just a quiet, demure, kind thing once Grandpa arrives. The model of quiet, gentle, unassuming female characters meant to be seen and not heard. So far, at least.

In my mind, then: So far, so stock."

Ken, I agree. Look elsewhere for character development or interest. She's like the cardboard background staying steady against the action to show something is moving.

I was comparing with some Dickens and other characters who come through troubles seemingly unscathed. You see the impact of this lifestyle in these characters, even in Jane.

But I'm enjoying this story, so am likely seeing all of it through a different lens.

Plateresca wrote: "I like it that the chapters have names, and I like the names themselves.,..." Me too, Plateresca! I've never been on a chat where someone mentioned that, but chapter title names can be really memorable. "Riddles in the Dark", "The Grand Inquisitor", "A Just Man".... have stayed with me for decades. Not sure that any of Gissing's will rise to that level for me though.

Cherisa, I'm right there with you in my reaction to Gissing's comments about Mrs. Hewitt. UGH! I absolutely cringed, and definitely swore aloud at him.

That said, in spite of the absolutely ceaselessly relentless dank darkness of this book, I am enjoying Gissing's writing style. I haven't read a "Victorian" for a while and sort of miss visiting--though I certainly wouldn't want to live then. The bleakness compared to Dickens is really over-the-top/I-imagine-much-more-realistic.

Sara wrote: "Cherisa, I'm right there with you in my reaction to Gissing's comments about Mrs. Hewitt. UGH! I absolutely cringed, and definitely swore aloud at him.

That said, in spite of the absolutely ceasel..."

You all are remembering a happier Dickens than I recall reading. I think of Hard Times and A Tale of Two Cities and recall little light and happiness in either. About the only happy Chuck D that comes to me is his early effort The Pickwick Papers, which was a rum-go (as Sam Veller kept saying).

And for the record, I find Gissing's over-the-top soap narrative a lot of fun. Just not Pickwick kind of fun. A yellow journalism kind of fun, maybe?

Ken wrote: "I find Gissing's over-the-top soap narrative a lot of fun. Just not Pickwick kind of fun. A yellow journalism kind of fun, maybe?"

LOL! Definitely Ken, definitely. And yes, it's been a while since I dipped into Dickens, so I probably am remembering the musical versions rather than the prose. :))

They were beasts of burden- all of the lower class. The back of the book had lots of references so at least the upper class Victorians had a conscience about the wretched lives these people lived.

Cherisa, I know 'Riddles in the Dark'! It's from the 'Hobbit' and it's one of my favourite ones, too! 'What have I got in my pocket?' I guess 'The Grand Inquisitor' might be from 'The Brothers Karamazov'? But I don't know or can't remember 'A Just Man' :( Where is this from?

'All the Mirrors of the World' is one of my all-time favourite chapter names, from my beloved Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell. But I love all the chapter names there. As is also the case with A Room with a View - it's hard to pick one...
'Chapter VI. The Reverend Arthur Beebe, the Reverend Cuthbert Eager, Mr. Emerson, Mr. George Emerson, Miss Eleanor Lavish, Miss Charlotte Bartlett, and Miss Lucy Honeychurch Drive Out in Carriages to See a View; Italians Drive Them
Chapter VII. They Return'
And I love it that there's a chapter called 'Twelfth Chapter' there :)

I do hope I won't be banned from the group for the off-topic, - I am switching to writing about Gissing immediately! :)

Cherisa, about Gissing's interjections. I was equally puzzled by this description of Mrs. Hewett!
The way I understand it, he's addressing the upper classes, so he presupposes that this is how his readers would think about the lower classes. I am sure he's sympathetic to the poor. Maybe in a way he's like his character Mr. Hewett, he's angry at all the things people should be angry at, like injustice et al, but he's angry in such a way that it's offputting and maybe not really helpful. Well, I don't really know about that, but I remember Chesterton said,
'Dickens, the optimist, satirizes the Fleet, and the Fleet is gone. Gissing, the pessimist, satirizes Suburbia, and Suburbia remains.'

Kathleen, I agree, the Byasses are cringeworthy.

'...that only insiders know what this is really like' - was Gissing such an insider? It seems his conditions were generally better than those of the people we're reading about now, weren't they?

Plateresca wrote: "'...that only insiders know what this is really like' - was Gissing such an insider? It seems his conditions were generally better than those of the people we're reading about now, weren't they?"

I assumed so, and just took a quick peek at Wikipedia. Seems Gissing was born into fairly good circumstances, but he did have some hard times, including a stint in jail for theft, so maybe he felt a kinship.

In the story, I thought Gissing drove the point that people like Jane and Sidney were best suited to helping the folks in Clerkenwell because they have lived it and understand what is needed.

Plateresca wrote: "I don't know or can't remember 'A Just Man' :( Where is this from?..."

Plateresca, it's the opener for Les Miserables, though it's really the section title, and not a specific chapter. I just always loved it (along with Jean Valjean, who of course gets introduced in it).

Plateresca wrote: "Cherisa wrote: '...that only insiders know what this is really like' - was Gissing such an insider? It seems his conditions were generally better than those of the people we're reading about now, weren't they?"

Last night I read the introduction (by Stephen Gill) to the Oxford edition I've been reading, and he sheds a little light on Gissing's relationship with poverty and the lives of the nether world:

"Early in 1888 Gissing was summoned to the house where his estranged wife [Nell] lay dead. The sight of the emaciated woman, who had died of alcoholism exacerbated by hunger and cold, lying in a bare room with only a few scraps of food and pawn-tickets as signs of her struggle to survive, so moved Gissing that he declared afresh: 'Henceforth I never cease to bear testimony against the accursed social order that brings about things of this kind' (Diary, 1 March 1888)." Within weeks, he started writing The Nether World, which was published in 1889.

Sorry I’ve missed the discussion for a bit. A bad cold and sinus infection have sidelined me and even made reading difficult.

I appreciated the comment above that describes Gissing as writing as a journalist. His narration sounds like a social worker/advocate for extreme change but he really doesn’t put forward any ideas except money for those who need and would use it well.

I wonder if there is any talk in the second half of the book of if the narrator believes the people of the Nether World are actually salvageable. He really savages them, giving up on any potential from birth. How does he account for a Michael Snowden, or a Jane, or Sydney. There seem to be strata of this world, but none have promise, do they.

I do like reading this. Gissing keeps it interesting with his changes of setting, introduction of new characters or return of old ones. And the chapter titles are great. I only began paying attention to them about half way through the reading and then started looking for their meaning.

Cherisa wrote: "Plateresca, it's the opener for Les Miserables, though it's really the section title"
Oh, I actually thought it was French! :) Yes, thank you.

Sara, thank you for the explanation! I actually have the same edition, but I've skipped the introduction until I've finished the book (I guess you've finished it already?) :)

Sue, I've spent a lot of time this winter with nasty colds, I very much sympathize! Hope you're feeling better now?
Sue wrote: "he really doesn’t put forward any ideas except money for those who need and would use it well"
Oh, but what about this:
'... then you must bring to bear on the new order of things the constant influence of music'? :)
I thought this sounded a bit naive, but sweet. Yet what follows is scary:
'For, work as you will, there is no chance of a new and better world until the old be utterly destroyed. Destroy, sweep away, prepare the ground; then shall music the holy, music the civiliser, breathe over the renewed earth, and with Orphean magic raise in perfect beauty the towers of the City of Man.'

But I agree, the style is often journalistic, especially in the chapter the quote above comes from: 'Io Saturnalia!', another chapter name I enjoyed. The contents of the chapter, though, are mostly disgusting, it's hard to imagine these people as salvageable.

Kathleen, now that I've got to the second part I understand your reference to 'Wuthering Heights' better! Yes, this does have something of that dread.

Sara wrote: "Last night I read the introduction (by Stephen Gill) to the Oxford edition I've been reading, and he sheds a little light on Gissing's relationship with poverty and the lives of the nether world:..."

I have an audiobook and am reading along with Project Gutenberg, so have no extra info, and really appreciate you sharing this, Sara!

In addition to the description of Mrs. Hewett Cherisa mentions above, Gissing also more than once describes women struggling with alcohol, like Pennyloaf's mother.
"Mrs. Candy had taken the pledge when her husband consented to return and live with her. Unfortunately she did not at the same time transfer herself to a country where there are no beer-shops and no Bank-holidays. Short of such decisive change, what hope for her?"

Sounds like Gissing may be looking to blame society and women's characters for their troubles, possibly to assuage his own guilt.

Kathleen wrote: "Sounds like Gissing may be looking to blame society and women's characters for their troubles, possibly to assuage his own guilt."

I had the same thought when I came upon the explanation I shared, Kathleen. I too listened to the audiobook first and am now reading the text, thus happily read the intro for increased perspective. Gissing really is such a beautiful writer. And so talented with dialects/patterns of speech. I have a hard time putting the book down once I've picked it up.

I've found an interesting article about alcoholism in women in Victorian England:
https://www.jack-the-ripper-tour.com/...
The gist is, 'it was about the only way in which they could hope to forget the nightmare of the harshness of their everyday living conditions'.

Perhaps Gissing is the more realistic author in his descriptions of what he sees/experiences than Dickens. Men and women are equally portrayed as capable of terrible behavior and evil acts.

I'd say he is pessimistic. Was there any hope for these people or wasn't? If we think that there wasn't, then he's realistic - but I don't really know.

Did anyone else note the authorial soapbox that, more than any other chapter, shouted at us in "Saturnalia, Io"? I made a note of the chapter title, but maybe it's just me.

Ken, do you mean the passage I quoted in my message 26, about music and destruction? What did you think of it?

Ken wrote: "Did anyone else note the authorial soapbox that, more than any other chapter, shouted at us in "Saturnalia, Io"? I made a note of the chapter title, but maybe it's just me."

Yes. I made a note that he called it "a great review of the people," and showed what a sorry state they were all in. Definitely the pinnacle of his soapboxing, I thought.

And that passage you quoted, Plateresca, was quite a mouthful! A nice idea, that music can heal, but ...

I'd say he's definitely pessimistic. But maybe relaying a pessimistic view of social problems is a better way of getting them fixed? I can see how it could be read as him giving up on people, but for whatever reason, I didn't get that feeling from him. I felt it as him relaying the hopelessness the people felt.

Plateresca wrote: "Ken, do you mean the passage I quoted in my message 26, about music and destruction? What did you think of it?"

Oops. Yes, that's the flavor and gist. I thought the chapter as a whole, though, came across as something that could have been cut, almost like a rant. Maybe it was necessary, though.

Hi everyone! I'm late to the party. Wonderful comments. I had intended to read this book slowly and gave myself a head start. But I could not put it down and finished it in a week! Definitely very engaging writing. The characters, as noted by many, are described with much detail and each is distinctly their own person. I found none of them likable although Kirkwood and Jane have redeeming qualities. John Hewitt made Kirkwood answer for Clara's determination to work for Mrs Tubb and he agreed! What a fool! We can already anticipate the opposite of this - "That Clara will bring you no sorrow." What Gissing did brilliantly is to bring out the vicious and cruel side of his female characters. Clem gets top marks for her wickedness. In addition, I appreciated the evocative way Gissing described Victorian London, the life of the very poor (their toil, hunger, alcoholism). It reminded me of Dickens but the misery here seems more intense and relentless.

Sara, thank you for alerting us to the introduction by Stephen Gill that let us learn about Gissing's personal life and why this book was written. Gissing clearly wrote from having lived in the nether world.

Plateresca, I read the helpful link you provided on alcoholism amongst the women folk in Victorian times. Thank you!

“Undoubtedly the women of England are good hard drinkers throughout, but it is among the lower middle classes of London that you must look for the habit in its full perfection."

Gissing captured this observation to perfection.

Ken, I'm sure Gissing would have been shocked to know you think this chapter could be omitted. On the opposite, I think it's very important for the author. He shows here how horrible these people are - I presume it is to tell the readers that a society that produces such people is urgently in need of reformation. Those described here are unhappy at work, but their holiday makes them equally or more unhappy. Moreover, Gissing expresses his pessimism over marriage here - in the fact that Pennyloaf is pondering the necessity to pawn her wedding ring - another thing Stephen Gill points out in his article.

Laysee, I'm glad you're joining us - I have a feeling that not everybody who voted for this book has managed to conquer it :)
I agree, the characters aren't likeable here, but some of them manage to behave with dignity, while others don't.