Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

This is the thread for Parable of the Sower buddy read in March 2023.

I just found a copy and will try to get to this early in the month. I’ve only ever read Kindred which I liked so I’m curious how this one will be. I say I don’t read science fiction but the ones I’ve chosen lately have been good.

I thought this buddy read was going to be in April. I'd better get on it. I also have only ever read Kindred, here when it was a monthly new school read, and really liked it.

Since reading Kindred, I have been interested in reading another by Butler. I will check my library system for a copy and hope for the best.

I was hoping for the audiobook, but there's a wait. So I took the Kindle edition, which was available.

I will be listening and reading. Scribd allows me to read and listen and to keep it straight, not get confused. Or maybe it's me. Maybe I am the one that confuses Kindle. . . . But I blame Kindle.

I just recently listened to both books on Libby. They're excellent. Might want to drop in to participate in the discussion

Oh boy--glad to see the interest in this! I really enjoyed Kindred, and got my library copy of this ready to go. Did take a peek at it the other day and was drawn in! But I have another book or two to hopefully finish first.

My library copy just came in and I read the opening chapter. Like Kathleen, I have some things to finish up, but I am in.

I need a way to inject these works into my mind while I sleep, since i am not reading fast enough, but I am in. Doing audio and text,

I will start in last day or two of February. This will be my first Octavia E Butler book.

I'm in, but towards the middle of the month, like most of you I have only read Kindred.

I'm in too but I as well have some February reads to wrap up first.

I've had the audiobook on reserve since the end of last year...maybe it will come in this month!

Always so weird when a dystopian novel (this one written in 1993, when 2024 sounded far away) is set in the year in which you are living. Of course, can't help comparing what she imagined to what our reality is. I remember the eerie feeling I had when we arrived at 1984.

I've read it. My review is here. https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I'm not planning to join her religion, but I'm looking forward to the discussion.

I an ehjoying this quite a bit. I like how the author uses exaggerated dangers in a dystopian fantasy to depict real or perceived threats
Seen in urban setting contemporary to the time or the writing.

I remember that 1984 feeling. I superstitiously thought if we made it through that year maybe we'd be okay.

The dangers do feel very real here. I'm on Chapter 6, and enjoying it, but finding the comparison between reading the story and reading the news a little depressing. I think Sam is right that they are real threats just slightly exaggerated. And I'd emphasize slightly.

There are places in this country that must feel very much as described here, where there is genuine fear when you walk the street that at worst you will be attacked or that a stray bullet, not intended for you at all, might take your life.

Sure are and like, I presume, a few other group members, I have lived in them.

I have finished and will be interested in what others think of this.

Just started.

In chapter 2, I think it's interesting that the character (view spoiler)[suffers from delusional empathy where she experiences the feelings that she believes those she observes are feeling, regardless of whether they're actually feeling it, even to the point of a physical response like bleeding. I've read many SF books with empathic characters, but this is the first I've encountered with a flawed or imperfect empathy.

And I guess that's the only sort of empathy we experience in our "real" world, an empathy limited and bounded by our own understanding. Yet, even with its limitations, the empathy we are capable of as human beings is responsible for most of the good things we have in our "real" world!

The interesting thing is that for this character it's not a choice. The switch of this very natural, healthy, and generally positive human response is turned all the way on for her (hide spoiler)]

I like this aspect already; it intrigues me.

I have also just started this. Greg I read your spoiler and (view spoiler)[you called it delusional empathy and mention that hers is flawed. I'm trying to understand this concept and just googled hyperemphathy which says
"Hyper-empathy syndrome occurs when you are too in tune with other people's emotions and mirror them to the same intensity. In other words, you care too much. People with hyper-empathy may find it hard to regulate their emotions and may have a tendency to pick up on negative feelings."
This definitely sounds different than what is being described with our character. The bleeding - is that what you mean by imperfect or flawed? (hide spoiler)]


I had to double check that this book was published in 1993. Butler sets her dystopian world in 2024/25 which isn't that far in the future actually. It's not too odd for a writer to sense how the world might become and how people will be living in 10ish years. So it doesn't seem quite a stretch and not really as prescient as say, Ray Bradbury in Fahrenheit 451.

Actually, the Window Walls sound a lot like the wall screens in 451.

Lori wrote: "I have also just started this. Greg I read your spoiler and you..."

No, I mean (view spoiler)[that she isn't psychic in any way like a futuristic empath is usually described. She's just like us in that she has no idea how people are really feeling. She just reacts to what she thinks people are feeling, and sometimes they might not be feeling what she thinks they are.

She says, "The sharing isn't real, after all. It isn't some magic or ESP that allows me to share the pain or plesasure of other people. It's delusional. Even I admit that. My brother Keith used to pretend to be hurt just to trick me into sharing his supposed pain. Once he used red ink as fake blood to make me bleed. I was eleven then, and I still bled through the skin when I saw someome else bleeding."

So I guess her brother dumped red ink on himself and pretended to be in pain; she connected not with the internal laughing cruelty he was really feeling but with the pain/injury that she thought he was feeling. Her bodily reaction was so strong to this false injury that blood started to well up through her own skin! Her brother just had paint on him, but her blood bubbled up out of her veins and through her skin like Ebola or something. That's a pretty terrifying 11 year old experience!

The empathy is flawed in that she isn't always reacting to a real thing. Her empathic emotions are not always a reliable copy of what is going on in other people's minds, and that's true of the "real" world too, though we only have an emotional reaction and hers is even more physical and powerful than ours would be. (hide spoiler)]

This spoiler discussion is really interesting.

(view spoiler)[I don't read much SF, and have little experience with empath characters. But as a highly sensitive person, I relate--just a little bit--to what Lauren describes here. As Greg says, her empathy is flawed. It isn't coming from a supernatural gift. It's coming from her own mind: what she thinks is happening to someone else. I think it's just an extreme version of what many of us feel when hearing about another's pain. We cry reading sad books after all! I'm curious to see how this trait will become a positive and negative in her world. (hide spoiler)]

In Chapter 6, (view spoiler)[her father scolds her for scaring people, and tells her to "talk to them about classes, not about Armageddon." I relate to this too a little bit because at work I'm always trying to prevent problems by alerting people to possibilities, and this often doesn't go over well. :-) I think her father's approach will be another interesting thing to watch. (hide spoiler)]

Ok, thanks so much Greg for your super explanation. I understand what you were saying. I remember reading the passage you quoted which explains perfectly what you meant but apparently I was falling asleep or tired. Ugh!

This is a rather curious choice that Butler has made. I am wondering if this will play into the religious aspect she has already been talking about. And whether we should trust her or not?

Lori, my pleasure! And I think that's a good question with the religious aspect; seems like there's a lot of good metaphoric ground to cover with her condition and the way it works. Eager to see how it plays out.

Kathleen, I sympathize with that too in terms of her feeling, and I also find it interesting in the difference between her and her father's different approaches; it seems generational, in terms of those who knew what things were like before and those who are not invested in that and are willing to go a new way.

I'm in chapter 10 now, and although it wasn't a surprise, (view spoiler)[I found Keith's ending poignant. He was a pretty terrible person, nearly a sociopath from the start . . . he thought he could game the situation and take advantage of the chaos surrounding him without paying any price for it. And he didn't care about the pain he caused others. But it's still kind of sad; something was broken or missing in him. And as a reader I could see he was on a road that was heading for disaster. His parents could see it. Even his sister could see it. But he was too young and arrogant to see it himself. (hide spoiler)]

Finishing chapter 15 now.

In chapters 13-14, the (view spoiler)[fall of their community is horrifying! Terrible all the senseless violence inflicted on these characters we've been getting to know. (hide spoiler)]

This book was a little slow for me at first, but I'm finding it more engaging as I get further along.

Sara wrote: "Always so weird when a dystopian novel (this one written in 1993, when 2024 sounded far away) is set in the year in which you are living. Of course, can't help comparing what she imagined to what o..."

I have only read two chapters so far, and this was my exact thought. And agree that people must have felt the same way about 1984.

I kind of liked the way Butler took her time to lay the groundwork for the story, though it did make the pace a little slow at first. But around chapter 10 or so, things really take off! I agree with your spoiler, Greg.

I'm just starting Chapter 16, and wondering what everyone thinks of the religion so far. What I like best is it sounds like a philosophy that would be dreamt up by a teenager--in the way it is idealistic and earnest. And it's interesting how she's honing it as she grows up and goes through different experiences. Curious to see how it develops.

Agree with you about the pacing Kathleen.

As far as the religious ideas, at first it reminded me a little of Heraclitus with the paradoxes and the idea of how everything is continually changing and in flux. But I think you're right - it has an adolescent feel in that nothing is very flushed out; it's earnest for sure and also a bit abstract.

I think it's certainly true that what we do changes both how we think and who we are. And what we think also shapes what we do and who we are. And who we are shapes both of the others too. Identity, thought, and action all have a way of forming and changing each other and have a relationship with each other that's not simple at all. Some of her verses seem to be going in that direction in terms of realizing how reality is shaped. Though she takes it a bit further in putting "god" in the mix, that we shape "god" and are shaped by "god." I'm not too clear in what she means by "god," but it isn't a Judeo-Christian one but something else.

So far, I find the human story more interesting than her new religion, but that could change. I'm interested to see how the happenings of the book shape this new religion, as it seems that might be one of the key focuses the book is moving toward. Though this new religion doesn't have the sense of Mystery or awe/wonder that I associate with religions of all sorts in my life, so Earthseed is a bit outside of my mindspace. This new relgion seems more of a philosophy of life with a mythology built around it. For sure, change and adapability are key to survival in her world; so I can see why those would be paramount in Earthseed.

I’ve just finished ch 9 (view spoiler)[I’m not sure what to think about what’s happening with Keith. Maybe the dad should have let him go ahead and target practice at 13 because Keith is now causing a great deal of trouble for the family. I don’t condone the beating he got, but I think he’s playing with fire by not listening to his dad who so far, seems to be doing the right things for the community. (hide spoiler)]

I agree the pace is slow and the writing is a bit young adult but the narrator is 16.

Kathleen, I’m not too keen on the religion aspect right now. She seems to have the idea that she’s going to change things and only she knows how to do it. I’ll wait to see where it goes before commenting further.

Greg's analysis of the empathic power in his spoilers is terrific close reading.

Ben wrote: "Greg's analysis of the empathic power in his spoilers is terrific close reading."

Thanks Ben :)

Greg wrote: "Lori, my pleasure! And I think that's a good question with the religious aspect; seems like there's a lot of good metaphoric ground to cover with her condition and the way it works. Eager to see ho..."

Kathleen, in regard to your spoiler in Ch 10, (view spoiler)[the beating by Keith’s dad changed the family in a way that forgiveness was not to be had. Cory and Keith were never going to forgive Dad for that even though we learned that Lauren was also beaten when she was 12. However, the difference was that she learned from it and determined that she was wrong. She didn’t resent Dad but revered him. I had a difficult time feeling any sympathy for Keith. He chose his way when he left and he basically became a criminal. Hating his dad for not letting him learn to shoot with the others, seems a minor thing to get that mad about. But Keith chose it out of spite and hatred. Sadly, I don’t think there was going to be a way that he could survive living in the outside. (hide spoiler)]

I agree with your assessment of Keith.

In chapter 18, we finally get a few more details of what the narrator means by "god" in Earthseed terms and what the purpose of this religion is for her. It's interesting. I still feel unsure whether the idea of Earthseed is compelling enough to take root as a cult or sect or "religion", but my mind is still open as I keep reading and learn more.

The pace has continued along pretty good since (view spoiler)[Roblados fell apart. Somehow the road journey is more interesting, and now that we've zeroed in on a fewer number of characters, I feel a bit closer to them. (hide spoiler)]

Lori, I don't remember what I said about Keith, but you make a very good point in your spoiler. :-)

I've just finished Chapter 18, and like Greg said, we learn more about Earthseed. I had a thought while reading this. Coming at it from any religious viewpoint, it's blasphemous of course. But from Butler's viewpoint as a black woman, and from Lauren's as a girl terrorized by crime and lack of opportunities for any future, this "religion" offers power to the "believers," that they can shape God, and therefore shape their destiny.

At one point (view spoiler)[Travis says "Your God doesn't care about you at all," and Lauren replies "All the more reason to create Earthseed communities and shape God together." (hide spoiler)]

Fyi, the app never hides spoilers. Idk what the point of that function is.

Kathleen wrote: "Lori, I don't remember what I said about Keith, but you make a very good point in your spoiler. :-)

I've just finished Chapter 18, and like Greg said, we learn more about Earthseed. I had a though..."

That's a great point Kathleen about the shaping, and yes, I can see why this sort of "religion" would appeal in ways traditional ones wouldn't.

They want something practical and survival oriented. When she says "I wasn't looking for mythology or mysticism or magic," it clicked for me that the very things that make this "religion" not appeal much to me are the reasons it appeals to her. They don't have time for mythology and wonder; they want something practical and in the moment.

LiLi wrote: "Fyi, the app never hides spoilers. Idk what the point of that function is."

That's a shame LiLi! Goodreads should really add support for them to the app!

Not sure what we can do about it though. We're all being careful to cite the chapter number before we say anything, and that plus the spoiler tags is probably the best we can do. The spoiler tags do at least help for everyone using the website. I use the website on my phone personally.

At the beginning of chapter 21 now - the pacing has been pretty quick for me in the second half of the book.

I've been reading parts of this in paperback at night and listening to parts in audiobook on my commute. It's working well in both formats. I've been reading more in the paperback at night as it has gotten more gripping.

In chapters 19-20, I've enjoyed the (view spoiler)[gradual growth of her group as they take in more people by showing humanity. I'm glad they're still a place in this world for some (careful) kindness and decency (hide spoiler)]

I listened to both audiobooks already, so the spoilers don't bother me personally. I just thought maybe I should let you know.

Not being a person who needs mysticism or wonder, Lauren's religion seems all right to me, if a religion is gonna exist. She doesn't have any of the scientific know-how to achieve her ultimate goal, though.

I think I'm more pessimistic than most of you, in that I think Butler has accurately described our near future. It seems very realistic to me

Just finished. I quite liked the ending - a nice way to end with some metaphoric resonance while still being satisfying on a practical level. I knew nothing whatsoever about this book in advance. Overall, it worked for me, especially the second half, and was a nice surprise.

Like LiLi said above, I didn't have any trouble accepting this vision of our future, horrific as it is. And the only part that troubled me about her religion (which I just saw as practical and a way to give herself and those around her hope when no other hope could be found) was the ultimate goal part. Still scratching my head at that.

But I ended up enjoying this as well. I like Butler's focus on community, and I'm curious where she will take this, so may read on to the next in the series.

I think I’m not as wowed by this as you and Greg, Kathleen. I had a much harder time getting into the story and finding any sort of sympathy for the characters. The religion was a major turn off for me. If she had stuck with “ideas” rather than using God to describe what she was making up, it would have worked better for me. I just didn’t buy it. But that’s me. We are all different. These last 100 pages I got through as quickly as I could to be done.

I thought Lauren was not believable in this role she put herself in.

I keep thinking about other novels that I enjoyed better in this genre and were much more affecting and far superior -The Road by Cormac McCarthy and The Handmaid’s Tale. It’s hard not to compare.

This came across as more of a social commentary on climate and social inequalities which didn’t feel very dystopian to me. I guess this is just not my cup of tea.

I completely agree, Lori. It struck me exactly the same way and I found I had very little to say about it when I was finished. I also kept comparing it to other, better, versions of a dystopian world. I think having set it in a year that we have now reached was another negative for me--I do not see us anywhere near a place where we are afraid to exit our door because we will all be shot en mass or where we are eating one another. Finally, the religious aspect did not work for me at all. For one thing, people were just too attentive to her ideas and her leadership, even people she had just met, when she was only 17 years old. I think, even if her ideas had merit, the adults involved would have been more like her father, urging her to tamp it down, not buying in; and most people would not buy into a "God" that had just been invented by someone they actually knew.

This was a step outside my normal reading tastes that just didn't work for me.

I will agree this was not up to the level of The Handmaid’s Tale for me. But like Margaret Atwood says often about that book, she did not include anything in her story that had not happened in history. And I didn't see anything here that has not happened in history (and some of it happening now), so I felt it was also feasible. And it never ceases to amaze me what some people will believe from their religious leaders, so it didn't surprise me that after much skepticism some of these folks did embrace Lauren's ideas that were really mostly about self-sufficiency.

But as always, there are so many aspects to a story, and we each find the ones that resonate or not. I appreciate everyone's diverse thoughts on this one!

Whether or not future predictions are accurate doesn't really bother me much in science fiction. I'm very able to suspend disbelief on those things. Like in Philip K. Dick's books when alongside futuristic equipment and technology, the characters are still printing out forms, I don't worry about it. He didn't fully have the concept of everything going electronic or being in the cloud. :)

And in this case, I totally agree with you that things aren't this bad now, but I think of it like an alternate history - there was a specific catalyst that caused this destabilization that doesn't yet exist in our world. In the case of the narrator's world, a period of very rapid environmental change happened such that the world couldn't adapt, and who knows, that is still possible at some future date, but it hasn't happened yet. So far, environmental changes have happened slowly enough that we have been able to adapt to them for the most part. There is no guarantee that will always be the case.

However, many elements of the world she describes have existed in our history, such as company towns that pay out only script for the company store that guarantees debt slavery. And though I hope we've moved past those things, it seems reasonable to me that such things could happen again given the right economic and cultural instabilities. I think some of what she describes is quite plausible in the right conditions.

But after thinking about it, I do agree that the narrator is listened to and accepted as a leader a little more than is fully plausible given her age and expertise. And I also agree (I think I too said it at some point earlier in the discussion) that her "religion" didn't feel compelling enough to me to really take hold. Later on in the book, Bankole says as much also:

"I still think it's too simple," he said to me. "A lot of it is logical, but it will never work without a sprinkling of mystical confusion."

It's unclear to me whether most of the characters really believe in Earthseed at the point of the novel's closing. It seems more likely that most of them are willing to go along with it for her sake because they have found a unit of people that are capable enough and trust each other enough to increase the chance of survival.

But Lori and Sara, I really appreciate your thoughts! I think that though I try to read deeply, sometimes I'm not as critical as I should be and miss things. I enjoy hearing ideas from the other side so I can understand what I might've missed!

Kathleen wrote: "I will agree this was not up to the level of The Handmaid’s Tale for me. But like Margaret Atwood says often about that book, she did not include anything in her story that had not hap..."

Just saw your reply Kathleen. I spent a long time typing out mine so I missed it. :) I agree that there are a great many elements in the story that have happened historically, and that's part of what's interesting to me. Usually in history, these things have happened to people who were poorer or immigrants or in some other way more vulnerable to maltreatment, but in Butler's book, a specific catalyst (rapid environmental change) has occurred that has made the middle and even upper classes vulnerable to the same things that poorer people have endured throughout much of history.

In this alternate history, Americans at large are enduring some things (company towns with the company store, debt slavery, unsafe conditions, etc) that many migrant farm workers or chicken plant workers were still enduring in the 1990s. It's not so much the mechanisms that are different but the scope of application.

The People Could Fly: American Black Folktales by Virginia Hamilton
At the beginning of the book our narrator was flying. I was reminded of of this folktale. When black folks were enslaved in the US and they would be harassed, sometimes folks could low-fly away. I guess high-flying would make folks more visible. Usually it is the old wise women, the crones, who pass down their strength and empowerment, but here it was an old man who showed folks how to fly away.