Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Onward.

One thing I found interesting in this section was the much more detailed picture of Javert. What I always heard about this book was that it was this wicked, almost paranoid Javert relentlessly pursuing the hero. But I found Hugo's portrait of Javert much more sympathetic than the things I had heard about the book had led me to believe. Maybe things will change as we get further into the book, but he seems, at this point, to be an honest and decent policeman trying to do his job responsibly and competently.

Obviously our sympathy is intended (at this stage, at least) to be with Valjean, but what are your thoughts about Javert now that we have had a much closer experience of him?

I've always really loved Javert's character. When we discussed Madeleines decision to turn himself in we discussed whether the ends justify the means. I think Javert and JVJ represent the two sides of this argument. One, Javert is generally pretty black and white, the rules are the rules. JVJ is more willing to see the shades of gray to see that there are instances that the rules should be bent or broken. Overall I find Javert to be very intelligent, rigid, but up until this point at least not malicious.

One other note, I just finished a book called
The Suspicions of Mr. Whicher Murder and the Undoing of a Great Victorian Detective. It's about a specific murder case in England in 1860 (the year Hugo began finishing Les Mis) but it also discusses the literary detective in Victorian literature. Reading it I thought often of Javert.

I think that with a story this widely known we come to the reading with some preconceived expectations or, at least, I did. When I studied Frankenstein in an English class, the prof reminded us that it is practically impossible to find anyone who has never heard of the book before. The same thing may be true of Les Mis. I'd seen the movies and because of that, I was ready to dislike Javert (and I do) but to be fair, he is who he is. He's dogged in his pursuit of Valjean and unsympathetic,but he is a policeman and his job is not to excuse or execute, his is to pursue and incarcerate, and I'd have to admit he does his job well.

If we view Javert as he views the world, than Javert's job as Inspector is to execute the law as it is written. If the law is unjust, then it needs to be changed, but that is not his job.

I think the more interesting question is why Javert seems to have his world structured in such as way that he can only see black and white. He seems to need these stable and clear lines of right or wrong in his life. It's all black and white for him. The gray area can not factor into his judgments or the whole premise on how he conducts his life falls apart and in invalidated.

The play that I saw, if I recall correctly, did not say why Javert has this rigid mind set. And that made him a bit of a caricature that was unsympathetic. I hope the book explores his background and paints a more subtle persona. I guess I am saying I hope Hugo shows us the "gray" area in Javerts personality. Something, so far, Javert is unable to do. But that may require Hugo to add another 1200 pages to this tome ! Yikes. :)

I see Javert and JVJ as similar in that they are both “outsiders” who are victims of the Law. Javert’s life is consumed by his Law enforcement job, and JVJ’s life is consumed by his constant need to escape the Law. They both want to make society better but they differ in regards to how they accomplish it and how it affects their private lives.

Javert’s mind is controlled by his desire is to capture criminals (& JVJ) which would make society better by enforcing the law. But unfortunately Javert is consumed by this desire.

I do think that Javert’s job was a difficult one. First you have to look at Paris at this time –inhumanely, overpopulated, over 1 million by 1850 (doubled since 1800). The streets were deadly cesspools of stagnant water, garbage and raw sewage. The Cholera epidemic killed 19,000 Parisians between 1848 and 1849. Overwhelming prostitution – the police were responsible for the legal/registered brothels as well as the illegal streetwalkers. After many years of working in those deplorable conditions, how would it affect you?

JVJ’s mind has changed since his encounter with the bishop – he tries to better society by helping others out of their difficult situation by empowering them to better themselves, and he develops a loving relationship with Cosette.

You've made very good points, regarding Paris at that time, Carol. Especially, how one might react if you had to work in those conditions day in and day out. Is it so unreasonable for the heart to turn to stone or get burned out? It doesn't even have to be malicious. Doctors frequently have to distance themselves and not get too involved with their patients. Least the pain and suffering of the sick overwhelms them and they become unable to do their job.

As you note the Bishop was the catalyst for JVJ's change. How might Javert change when also shown kindness?

You mention the law's influence and hold on Javert and JVJ.

As I begin to read this weeks readings I was taken by the similarities to JVJ and Cosette.
Book 3 chapter 2 Completion of two Portraits
The last two paragraphs tell us that "no mercy" was to be expected from the Thenardiers.
Just as JVJ received no mercy from the Law.

Cosette felt the "inn was a trap in which she was caught and held, her state of servitude the very pattern of oppression, herself the fly trembling and powerless in a spiders web."

As I recall JVJ also spoke very little in prison. Cosette's home is little more than a prison.

Hugo asks, "...but what goes on in the souls of those creatures..."

Just as JVJ soul was blackened by his experience with the law and jail.

Carol wrote: "I see Javert and JVJ as similar in that they are both “outsiders” who are victims of the Law. Javert’s life is consumed by his Law enforcement job, and JVJ’s life is consumed by his constant need to escape the Law. They both want to make society better but they differ in regards to how they accomplish it and how it affects their private lives.
"

Cool observation, Carol!

Book 3
Chapter 2
Completion of Two Portraits

I enjoyed reading this chapter because I could see many of the lines from the song, Master of The House" from the Broadway play.

First the title is straight from my Denny translation.
"Invariable concluded that she was the real master of the house."

My text: "He had literary pretensions and professed to follow the materialist philosophy, supporting his arguments with such names as Voltaire..."

The song: "cunning little brain... Regular Voltaire..

My text, beginning with "the innkeeper's business" up to "by God make the traveler pay for everything, down to the very flies his dog eats."

A few lines from the song: Everything has a price- ...but here we strive to lighten your purse.... Food beyond compare, Food beyond belief, mix it is a mincer and pretend it's beef
Kidney of a horse, liver a of a cat, filling up the sausages with this and that, ....Charge them for the lice, extra for the mice, two per cent for looking in the mirror twice.... "

I do have one question and a comment regarding this chapter.

Mrs. T. is described as "resembling those monstrous women who parade themselves on fair grounds with paving-stones suspended from their hair."

I thought paving stones were types of bricks that one might pave a driveway with for example. What other meaning does paving stones have? Fake baubles maybe?

I was taken aback when it is said that Mrs. T. does "not love" her son. Who doesn't respond to a child crying? It's a natural instinct. I guess it's in keeping with the treatment of Cosette. It just show the further depravity of the women. Though as we have seen "society" can coarsen even the most gentle of souls. Should we have sympathy for Mrs. T. ? If we don't, are we similar to Javert? In terms of not caring why she acts as she does, only concerned about her actions.

Alias Reader wrote: "Book 3
Chapter 2
Completion of Two Portraits

I enjoyed reading this chapter because I could see many of the lines from the song, Master of The House" from the Broadway play.

First the ti..."

I had the song running through my head too when I read this chapter. Although in the song Mrs T criticises Mr T "thinks he's quite a lover but there's not much there..." in the book Hugo says

"never would she have differed in any detail with "Monseiur Thenardier" -nor- impossible to suppose-would she have publicly disagreed with her husband in any matter whatsoever. Never had she comitted "before company" that fault of which women are so often guilty, and which is called in parlimentary language "exposing the crown". I don't know if I can find much sympathy for Mrs. T. She's capable of loving a child. Society hasn't hardened her to the point that she can't spoil and love her daughters. If it was just Cosette maybe I could see were the resentment was coming from. She isn't her child and it's another mouth to feed. It doesn't excuse the abuse but maybe explains it. I can't find any good reason for her disliking her own son though.

Alias Reader wrote: "You've made very good points, regarding Paris at that time, Carol. Especially, how one might react if you had to work in those conditions day in and day out. Is it so unreasonable for the heart t..."


Cosette’s home is little more than a prison. --Regarding Cosette’s life with the Thenardiers – I think she is also an “outsider” like JVJ and Javert.

How might Javert change when also shown kindness?
I believe that everyone has the possibility for change but in order to really do it, you have to change your whole thought process. (From loving “me” first to loving “others” first.) You can’t accomplish it on your own -- only God can do that, as demonstrated by the love of the bishop for JVJ (BK2, CH 13) and JVJ for Fantine (BK4 CH13).

I feel that we are all born as self-centered creatures and at some time in our lives we come to a point when we are so miserable, so helpless that we realize that we can’t do it and we say “I give up, I can’t do this on my own. Help me God.” I see Javert as a person who is so independent and cautious that I don’t know if he can do that. In trying to capture JVJ he waited until all doubt was gone before he could call for help to execute his plan to capture him. And when Javert had Fantine in the police office, all her pleading, begging and cries for mercy did not change the fact that in his mind he saw her as a prostitute who assaulted a “good” citizen and deserved 6 months in jail.

(BK 2, CH 13) JVJ "change"
When Jean Valjean left the Bishop's house, he was, as we have seen, quite thrown out of everything that had been his thought hitherto. He could not yield to the evidence of what was going on within him. He hardened himself against the angelic action and the gentle words of the old man. "You have promised me to become an honest man. I buy your soul. I take it away from the spirit of perversity; I give it to the good God."

This recurred to his mind unceasingly. To this celestial kindness he opposed pride, which is the fortress of evil within us. He was indistinctly conscious that the pardon of this priest was the greatest assault and the most formidable attack which had moved him yet; that his obduracy was finally settled if he resisted this clemency; that if he yielded, he should be obliged to renounce that hatred with which the actions of other men had filled his soul through so many years, and which pleased him; that this time it was necessary to conquer or to be conquered; and that a struggle, a colossal and final struggle, had been begun between his viciousness and the goodness of that man.

In the presence of these lights, he proceeded like a man who is intoxicated. As he walked thus with haggard eyes, did he have a distinct perception of what might result to him from his adventure at D——? Did he understand all those mysterious murmurs which warn or importune the spirit at certain moments of life? Did a voice whisper in his ear that he had just passed the solemn hour of his destiny; that there no longer remained a middle course for him; that if he were not henceforth the best of men, he would be the worst; that it behooved him now, so to speak, to mount higher than the Bishop, or fall lower than the convict; that if he wished to become good be must become an angel; that if he wished to remain evil, he must become a monster?

Here, again, some questions must be put, which we have already put to ourselves elsewhere: did he catch some shadow of all this in his thought, in a confused way? Misfortune certainly, as we have said, does form the education of the intelligence; nevertheless, it is doubtful whether Jean Valjean was in a condition to disentangle all that we have here indicated. If these ideas occurred to him, he but caught glimpses of, rather than saw them, and they only succeeded in throwing him into an unutterable and almost painful state of emotion. On emerging from that black and deformed thing which is called the galleys, the Bishop had hurt his soul, as too vivid a light would have hurt his eyes on emerging from the dark. The future life, the possible life which offered itself to him henceforth, all pure and radiant, filled him with tremors and anxiety. He no longer knew where he really was. Like an owl, who should suddenly see the sun rise, the convict had been dazzled and blinded, as it were, by virtue.

That which was certain, that which he did not doubt, was that he was no longer the same man, that everything about him was changed, that it was no longer in his power to make it as though the Bishop had not spoken to him and had not touched him.


BK 4, CH 13) Fantine's change (by Monsieur Mayor/Madeline/JVJ after she spat in his face at the police office and he insisted that she be released.)

Nevertheless, Fantine also was the prey to a strange confusion. She had just seen herself a subject of dispute between two opposing powers. She had seen two men who held in their hands her liberty, her life, her soul, her child, in combat before her very eyes; one of these men was drawing her towards darkness, the other was leading her back towards the light. In this conflict, viewed through the exaggerations of terror, these two men had appeared to her like two giants; the one spoke like her demon, the other like her good angel.

The angel had conquered the demon, and, strange to say, that which made her shudder from head to foot was the fact that this angel, this liberator, was the very man whom she abhorred, that mayor whom she had so long regarded as the author of all her woes, that Madeleine! And at the very moment when she had insulted him in so hideous a fashion, he had saved her!

Had she, then, been mistaken? Must she change her whole soul? She did not know; she trembled. She listened in bewilderment, she looked on in affright, and at every word uttered by M. Madeleine she felt the frightful shades of hatred crumble and melt within her, and something warm and ineffable, indescribable, which was both joy, confidence and love, dawn in her heart.

I just want to quote a passage that struck me and I wonder if anyone has anything to say about it:

Cosette IV "...Jean Valjean had this peculiarity, that he might be said to carry two knapsacks; in one he had the thoughts of a saint, in the other the formidable talents of a convict. He helped himself from one or the other as occasion required..."

It seems like this is an example of the extremes seen in the book that make it so melodramatic. I'm really not liking the book so much as I read it for the second time. I never noticed with my first reading but it just seems to me to be somewhat contrived.

Carol wrote: "Alias Reader wrote: "You've made very good points, regarding Paris at that time, Carol. Especially, how one might react if you had to work in those conditions day in and day out. Is it so unreaso..."

Again, Carol, you've pulled this together beautifully.

Dianna wrote: "I just want to quote a passage that struck me and I wonder if anyone has anything to say about it:

Cosette IV "...Jean Valjean had this peculiarity, that he might be said to carry two knapsacks;..."

I thought that the passage illustrates how JVJ is a man who pursues moral goodness, but also someone who is not blind to the injustices that the law imposes on people like him. He's moral enough not to let an innocent man suffer for his crimes, but also realistic enough to escape from the galley.

Post #10 - Carol wrote: I feel that we are all born as self-centered creatures and at some time in our lives we come to a point when we are so miserable, so helpless that we realize that we can’t do it and we say “I give up, I can’t do this on my own. Help me God.” I see Javert as a person who is so independent and cautious that I don’t know if he can do that.
------------------------------

I don't know if I see Javert that way.

The book has a lot of religious overtones. Don't you think that Javert is just following the bible precepts? You have a choice. You sin, you pay the price. Valjean has sinned (committed a crime) and now must pay the price.

I was listening to the CD of the play last night and noted these lines from the song, Stars. It is a song sung by Javert about how he will never give up pursuing Valjean.

And so it has been and so it's written
On the doorway to paradise
That those who falter
And those who fall
Must pay
The price.

Weren't we told something early on about how Javert ended up with this view of the world? I don't have the book with me at work, so I need to go back and look.

Alias Reader wrote: The book has a lot of religious overtones. Don't you think that Javert is just following the bible precepts? You have a choice. You sin, you pay the price. Valjean has sinned (committed a crime) and now must pay the price.

Javert was following the letter of the wall but not the spirit. He was straining at gnats and swallowing camels. He is the epitome of what it means to have justice without mercy. Very sad!

Laurele wrote: "Alias Reader wrote: The book has a lot of religious overtones. Don't you think that Javert is just following the bible precepts? You have a choice. You sin, you pay the price. Valjean has sinned (c..."

Javert is truly a tragic figure. He came from the bottom rung of society --- he was born in prison. His way up is to become the robotic, merciless 'bulldog' that guards the interest of the same society that abuses people of his class.

Alias Reader wrote: I don't know if I see Javert that way.

Regarding Javert, I think having faith requires accepting things that rational thought cannot. I see Javert as a rational person therefore it would have been very difficult for him to have faith. But not impossible.

This is my first time reading this book and I am in no way am trying to push “religion” on anyone. I think Hugo is saying that those who are “lost”—outsiders, the poverty-stricken, angry, misjudged criminals – can go from bad to good, can change their life situation through a complete conversion of their beliefs. As a deist, it appears that Hugo was one who believed, and possibly experienced a divine revelation – otherwise why would he write about it in such a positive way? His quotes show that he was a person who had a deep faith.


http://atheisme.free.fr/Biographies/H...

Victor Hugo and religion
Born into an atheistic family, Victor Hugo came close to Catholicism after his marriage with Adele Foucher, perhaps to be in conformity with the literary circle in which he lived. He was a deep believer, sometimes even a mystical one. After the events of 1848, he changed faced with the Catholics' indifference to the misery of mankind, and did not trust any more religions.
Like Voltaire, Victor Hugo was therefore a deist, i.e. a believer without religion. Sensitive to the mysteries of world, he tried to reconcile his spiritual vision of universe to a rationalist and optimistic idea of the history of humanity. With the passing years, Victor Hugo became fundamentally anticlerical and denounced obscurantism with strength. He was also a defender of freethinking, word he was one of the first to use.


A few quotes by Hugo: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/aut...

A faith is a necessity to a man. Woe to him who believes in nothing.

Conscience is God present in man.

Hope is the word, which God has written on the brow of every man.

I am a soul. I know well that what I shall render up to the grave is not myself. That which is myself will go elsewhere. Earth, thou art not my abyss! Because one doesn't like the way things are is no reason to be unjust towards God.

Sandybanks wrote: Javert is truly a tragic figure. He came from the bottom rung of society --- he was born in prison. His way up is to become the robotic, merciless 'bulldog' that guards the interest of the same society that abuses people of his class.

it would be interesting to compare him with Amy in Little Dorrit by Dickens. She was born in prison, too.

Thank you for the reminder about Javert's origins. I think (I'm reading into the text here) that it was fear that drove him. He had to stay on the right side of authority, couldn't step outside the lines. Maybe he feared being exposed as actually an "outsider" himself?

Andrea wrote: "Thank you for the reminder about Javert's origins. I think (I'm reading into the text here) that it was fear that drove him. He had to stay on the right side of authority, couldn't step outside t..."

Good thought, Andrea.

Dianna wrote: "I just want to quote a passage that struck me and I wonder if anyone has anything to say about it:

Cosette IV "...Jean Valjean had this peculiarity, that he might be said to carry two knapsacks;..."

I actually liked that passage, which I marked in the margin. It illustrated the complexity of being human -- that most of us have, in the traditional way we picture it, an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. Valjean is neither a total saint nor a total sinner, but he has qualities of both. What it emphasizes for me is that whichever he needs/chooses to be at any given moment, he does it to the fullest. When he is being saintly, he is very saintly (for example, risking his life and liberty to rescue Cosette and give her aspects of childhood, such as a doll and time to play, that she hadn't had since her mother left her). But when the instincts or needs of his convict talents are needed, his talents in that direction are formidable, enabling him to hide out of public view, to know when to run, and to use his strength to climb a wall with Cosette when that seems impossible to his pursuers.

He is, in short, a bit bigger than life in both the positive and the negative aspect of life.

Sandybanks wrote: "Javert is truly a tragic figure. He came from the bottom rung of society --- he was born in prison. His way up is to become the robotic, merciless 'bulldog' that guards the interest of the same society that abuses people of his class."

Merciless in one sense, perhaps. But merciful in another sense -- merciful to the society on which criminals prey, protector of those who cannot protect themselves.

I don't see him, though, as robotic. He seems to me to understand, even be thoughtful about, the complexities of his chosen profession, and to be unstinting of his abilities in the service of those he is paid to protect.

Everyman, I think you are right to remind us that not every person with whom Javert had to do was deserving of mercy. Jean Valjean also brings this out when he muses on the difference between the nuns and the convicts.

Laurele wrote: "Javert was following the letter of the wall but not the spirit. He was straining at gnats and swallowing camels. He is the epitome of what it means to have justice without mercy. Very sad!"

Can you amplify this? What gnats and camels? I haven't noticed any instances where he was seeking to impose justice where mercy would have been called for. Certainly not with Valjean, who however much Hugo shows us the contents of his saintly knapsack is still an escaped criminal who has shown by what, five escapes from lawful confinement now (three in his original sentence, one after his self-exposure as Valjean, and the fifth diving from the ship) that he disdains the rule of law. He has also lied to authority in lying to Javert, in his persona of Madeline, that he was as suspected in fact Valjean.

Are you suggesting that Javert should not pursue this criminal, but should abandon his sworn duty because Valjean has a positive side to his character?

One could wonder if the court system, i.e. the judge or the prosecuter, could see that Valjean was reformed and therefore approach him with compassion? It's not really Javert's fault that the system had not way to incorporate rehabilitation or mercy. But it is hard to feel he (Javert) is fully human somehow. I've known a few people who follow the rules of authority out of fear and they're not very nice people to have to do with generally.

Andrea wrote: "Thank you for the reminder about Javert's origins. I think (I'm reading into the text here) that it was fear that drove him. He had to stay on the right side of authority, couldn't step outside t..."

I believe that the only fear Javert had was to falsely accuse an innocent man of being JVJ and lose his position.

“To attack individual liberty was a serious thing. The officers were afraid of making mistakes: the Prefect held them responsible; an error was tantamount to dismissal.”

In fact once he knew it was JVJ,

“It was only quite late in the Rue de Pontoise, that, thanks to the brilliant light thrown from a dram-shop, he decidedly recognized Jean Valjean. There are in this world two beings who give a profound start, the mother who recovers her child and the tiger who recovers his prey. Javert gave that profound start.”

he called for assistance but did not give his name because he wanted 1) Recognition – that he alone was the one who was the mastermind behind the capture of a reputed “dead” criminal that was classified as most dangerous; 2) I think he liked the process of the capture.

“Javert being an artist, liked surprises. He hated those vaunted successes that are deflowered by talking of them in advance. He liked to develop his masterpieces in the shadows, and then unveil them suddenly afterward.”

Not to be argumentative, but the quotes illustrate the unpleasant pleasure he seems to have in "doing his duty." That would not obviate the idea that he is a man driven by fear of being overlooked or of being labeled as inferior. I find it helps me to understand him better; it doesn't make him likable.

Andrea wrote: "Not to be argumentative, but the quotes illustrate the unpleasant pleasure he seems to have in "doing his duty." That would not obviate the idea that he is a man driven by fear of being overlooked..."

I think he is a victim of his circumstances. With regards to his arrests, I think he doesn’t see a “fallen individual” but an “evil criminal”. I think he is thorough in his job. He has a great memory for details and is very methodical in his process.

I don't really see Javert as a victim or a complete villain. He tends to be painted as a villain because of his relentless pursuit of JVJ who Hugo goes to great pains to make us sympathize with. If he put the same qualities (dogged determintaion, reason and intellect, and a refusal to be swayed by a sob story) into the capture of a serial murderer or a child molester we'd applaud him. I don't particularly find him likable but I think his presence reminds us that JVJ is not an angel it also makes for a better story. We wouldn't have much of a plot if JVJ just rode of into the suset.

Everyman wrote: He is, in short, a bit bigger than life in both the positive and the negative aspect of life.

This is one reason I would really like to see Gérard Depardieu play Jean Valjean. There is a video available, but only in French, and I'm not sure how much I'd get from it--maybe quite a bit after I finish reading.

Everyman wrote: "Laurele wrote: "Javert was following the letter of the wall but not the spirit. He was straining at gnats and swallowing camels. He is the epitome of what it means to have justice without mercy. Ve..."

I'd better not say more now. I think it may become clearer as we go along.

post 18 Carol wrote about Hugo: After the events of 1848, he changed faced with the Catholics' indifference to the misery of mankind, and did not trust any more religions.
============================

That seems like Javert would be the very model for your quote. We have to remember not to put modern day thoughts on religion, or even our own views on the subject, and see what religion was preached in Hugo's time. I would not be surprised if it was a very black/white view. And one of damnation and hell as the focus.

Eliza wrote: "I don't really see Javert as a victim or a complete villain. He tends to be painted as a villain because of his relentless pursuit of JVJ who Hugo goes to great pains to make us sympathize with. If he put the same qualities (dogged determintaion, reason and intellect, and a refusal to be swayed by a sob story) into the capture of a serial murderer or a child molester we'd applaud him. ..."

That's a really nice point. Hugo certainly does paint Valjean as a very sympathetic character (and we have to admit that his crimes -- stealing bread to feed his family, stealing he silver from Myriel, stealing the coin which he tried to return soon thereafter) aren't heinous crimes. OTOH, the legal system looks very askance at people who escape from prison, so there's more going on than just those offenses.

But as you point out, if Javert were pursuing some person we though richly deserved to be caught and punished, we would be much more supportive of his efforts and much more appreciative of his diligence and doggedness.

Thank you for the reminder about Javert's origins
---------------------

I am still reading this weeks assignment and haven't reach the part where javert's prison origins are discussed. But doesn't that still fit the idea of "follow the straight and narrow path" that most likely was preached at that time?

Javert choose to follow the rule and rise to Inspector.
He feels Valjean choose another path, one of crime (sin).

I am not siding with Javert, I'm only trying to see things from his point of view, to figure out his motivation.

Everyman wrote: "Laurele wrote: "Javert was following the letter of the wall but not the spirit. He was straining at gnats and swallowing camels. He is the epitome of what it means to have justice without mercy. Ve..."

Sister Simplice (is that her name?) who never lied in her life, lied three times to cover for Valjean. She was willing to bend what for her was divine rule to allow a man that she knows to be a good man, escape the law.

I'm not suggesting that Javert could do something like that with impunity, for after all, he still a policeman, but he could have listened to his conscience more in dealing with JVJ.

Perhaps Javert should just turn a blind eye on JVJ, although he knows that JVJ is in hiding somewhere.

"Conscience is the highest justice".

Andrea wrote: "One could wonder if the court system, i.e. the judge or the prosecuter, could see that Valjean was reformed and therefore approach him with compassion? It's not really Javert's fault that the syst..."

I asked the same question earlier : shouldn't the fact that JVJ had been doing good as Madeleine be considered as a mitigating factor by the judge? Apparently not. The justice system that was willing to sentence a man to the galleys for stealing a loaf of bread had no compassion whatsoever for a criminal, though a reformed one. The punishments were totally out of proportion and the whole legal system was grossly unjust.

Someone like Javert cannot see this.

Laurele wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: Javert is truly a tragic figure. He came from the bottom rung of society --- he was born in prison. His way up is to become the robotic, merciless 'bulldog' that guards the intere..."

I haven't read Little Dorrit, but I've watched the recent BBC adaptation of it. Amy seems like an incredibly GOOD character.

Sandybanks wrote: "The punishments were totally out of proportion and the whole legal system was grossly unjust.

Someone like Javert cannot see this."

This raises the broader question, doesn't it, of judging their era by our standards. To Javert, this was the society in which he had been raised, and like most people, they are in the habit of thinking that the way things are are the way they naturally should be. People tend to think that their society is just, don't they? The classical Greeks were philosophically and intellectually one of the most advanced cultures on earth, but they accepted slavery as natural and just.

Without wanting to get into either a religious or political debate, it's sort of like the societies which are committed to Sharia law today -- they don't consider stoning women for adultery, or honor killings, to be unjust, but consider them to be the right and proper way for good people to live, and they view our liberal societies as decadent and evil.

So while we certainly consider a five year sentence of hard labor for stealing a loaf of bread to be extreme and unjust, I don't think we should expect Javert to have thought so. This was the law, it was his law, and I think it's probable that he thought it was a good and just law.

Everyman wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: "The punishments were totally out of proportion and the whole legal system was grossly unjust.

Someone like Javert cannot see this."

This raises the broader question, doesn't it..."

Javert cannot consider whether the law is unjust or not, because he sees things in black and white. Hugo tellingly describes him as someone who doesn't like to read, meaning that he is not willing to open his mind to alternative thoughts that might change his world view. But not everyone is like him, Sister Simplice and Fauchelevent (sp.?), are willing to go against the law to help JVJ escape or hide. They're using their conscience to judge the prevailing legal system and find it to be wanting in justice.

I think Hugo himself is asking us to judge the French society at that time through these characters' different reactions to the legal system.

I'd not hesitate to say that someone who breaks the law by helping an escaped slave in pre-civil war US, or a Jew to escape from the Nazis, is doing the right thing by the standards of ANY age.

Speaking about Sharia law --- as a non-Muslim Indonesian, I've seen it enforced in all kinds of manner, ranging from the extreme to the relatively lenient. There is a considerable difference in opinion, even among Muslims themselves, about these laws. I'd imagine that the French during JVJ's time also had such a diversity of opinion regarding the extreme laws that their goverment enforced.

Sandybanks wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: "The punishments were totally out of proportion and the whole legal system was grossly unjust.

Someone like Javert cannot see this."

This raises the broader que..."I need to go back to the book, yet again for this answer, but I had the distinct feeling that Fauchelevent, having been shut up in the convent all this time, was not aware that M. Madeline had been exposed as Jean Valjean. Not a major issue, but I am interested in the incredibly difficult moral choices Hugo keeps handing to JVJ. He is asking a helpless old man to risk his employment and possibly his life to help him without giving him full information. And yet, after what he has seen of Cosette's situation, he cannot leave her. He has to stay with her to protect her. Such choices! Hugo may be melodramatic, but I'm completely captivated.

Sandybanks wrote: "The punishments were totally out of proportion and the whole legal system was grossly unjust.

Someone like Javert cannot see this.
..."

====================

What you say is 100% correct. However, Javert's job is to be an Inspector. He does not write the laws. He is not a judge. His job is not to advocate for JVJ as defense lawyer.

Andrea: No, Fauchelevent was not aware of JVJ's situation at all. JVJ, in fact, asked F to help him without asking any questions and, because of his reverence for M. Madeleine (who had saved his life by lifting a cart off him), F did so.

Everyman, you mentioned that we may feel the law was unjust but Javert wouldn't have felt that way. You may be right but I think the point is Javert's job is to follow the law no matter how he feels about it. He is focused and dogged about being a policeman, an inspector. It doesn't matter what an escaped convict's crime was, it's Javert's job to capture him and return him to prison. We're sympathetic toward Valjean because of the relative innocence of his crime and because we "see" that he is a good man, but Javert does not have that option open to him. His background may have driven home to him that he doesn't ever want to be on the wrong side of the law but his very livelihood requires him to follow the letter of the law without fail. Isn't that what dictates the position of a policeman in society even today?

Evalyn wrote: "Everyman, you mentioned that we may feel the law was unjust but Javert wouldn't have felt that way. You may be right but I think the point is Javert's job is to follow the law no matter how he feel..."

I think you're right up to a point, but I also think that people who believe the law is truly unjust would not be as assiduous in enforcing it as Javert. A few decades ago there was a push in the liberal college crowd to join the police in order to make a difference, to provide more "humane," in their view, policing. Most of those I knew who went in for this wound up either absorbing into the police culture and supporting it (as college kids in the 60s they had almost no idea what the underside of society was really like) or leaving the police force because they still believed the law was unjust to the poor and couldn't work in that culture.

So while you may be right that Javert pursues Valjean because it's his job, I don't think he would do the job as vigorously if he thought he was working an injustice in doing so.

JMHO.

Andrea wrote: "I need to go back to the book, yet again for this answer, but I had the distinct feeling that Fauchelevent, having been shut up in the convent all this time, was not aware that M. Madeline had been exposed as Jean Valjean. Not a major issue, but I am interested in the incredibly difficult moral choices Hugo keeps handing to JVJ. He is asking a helpless old man to risk his employment and possibly his life to help him without giving him full information. And yet, after what he has seen of Cosette's situation, he cannot leave her. He has to stay with her to protect her. Such choices! Hugo may be melodramatic, but I'm completely captivated."

That's my recollection, too, that Fauchelevent didn't know Madeline as Valjean the criminal. He just thought Madeline had lost his money somehow, or for some other reason had fallen on hard times.

That's a nice point about Hugo facing Valjean with such a set of moral dilemmas. He must be doing so in order to make us, as readers, think our own ways though these same moral dilemmas -- when is it okay to lie, when is it okay to break the laws of society, how far should one go in protecting innocent children, how much should one impose on others and expose them to danger to help a person whose motives are noble?

As you say, all captivating stuff!

Absolutely. Not to get us sidetracked again, but anytime someone says modern or contemporary lit. is not as "didactic" as earlier lit. (like Hugo's) I think they just don't see it since it fits their own preconceptions.

Andrea wrote: "Absolutely. Not to get us sidetracked again, but anytime someone says modern or contemporary lit. is not as "didactic" as earlier lit. (like Hugo's) I think they just don't see it since it fits th..."

I like this point. The didacticism of contemporary lit. is quite visible if one happens to hold other opinions.

Peregrine wrote: Andrea wrote: "Absolutely. Not to get us sidetracked again, but anytime someone says modern or contemporary lit. is not as "didactic" as earlier lit. (like Hugo's) I think they just don't see it since it fits th..."

I like this point. The didacticism of contemporary lit. is quite visible if one happens to hold other opinions.


So true! So very true!