Into the Forest discussion

This is a buddy read of Atalanta by Jennifer Saint, which releases on May 9.

Thank you Margaret! :) I read a couple of chapters, so far the writing reminds me a little of The Valkyrie, so I am a bit wary (hopefully it's nothing like it! :P)

(view spoiler)[Artemis was quite ruthless with the nymph who was trying to escape from the god, I think... (hide spoiler)]

I've read her previous book, Ariadne, and really enjoyed it. I started Elektra but didn't end up finishing it. So we'll see how I feel about this one!

I started it last night but only got through the prologue before I fell asleep. (Not because of the book, but because of sleep deprivation, ha!)

I'm not super familiar with Atalanta's mythology. I remember Artemis...Atalanta is a runner, right? She might have something to do with Jason and the Argonauts? It might be a bonus that I don't know that much!

Ah, no, I'm also going in sort of blind, I have very little reference for the story of Atalanta! :)

Chapter 4: I will admit I am skipping some descriptions here and there (too much, just too much), bht otherwise I am curious about what will happen next. (view spoiler)[Artemis is really ruthless.. (hide spoiler)]

Andy wrote: "Chapter 4: I will admit I am skipping some descriptions here and there (too much, just too much), bht otherwise I am curious about what will happen next. [spoilers removed]"

We are at the same spot!

(view spoiler)[ Artemis is brutal! I realize Atalanta doesn't have much exposure to others, but it makes me wonder why she doesn't see Artemis as cruel, especially where it comes to Callisto. She and Callisto were so close. (hide spoiler)]

The nymph group reminds me of Medusa's in The Shadow of Perseus.

I'm hoping for more interesting characters. Atalanta isn't super interesting to me, though Artemis is. When she was telling the story of Persephone, I thought, there's someone I want to read more about!

Check out this history of Callisto! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callist...

I almost wish I hadn't looked her up because the first story listed, where she believes Zeus is Artemis and willingly has sex with him, is such a better story. That's the drama I need lol.

Margaret wrote: "The nymph group reminds me of Medusa's in The Shadow of Perseus."

Yes, you are right! :)

Margaret wrote: "I'm hoping for more interesting characters. Atalanta isn't super interesting to me, though Artemis is. "

I think Atalanta has some potential to have an interesting arc yet, I'm at chapter 5 and she is now set to go see more of the world, which I think will help!

Margaret wrote: "Check out this history of Callisto! "

Ahah! I had a look! That Wiki page is interesting, because there is even a table to see the similarities and differences between the various stories!

Personally, the Callisto story was enough, I think it was to showcase how unforgiving Artemis is? I am also wondering when Atalanta will realise it, if ever...

Andy wrote: "Personally, the Callisto story was enough, I think it was to showcase how unforgiving Artemis is? I am also wondering when Atalanta will realise it, if ever......"

I definitely agree for the purposes of the story it works better. But now I also want the other story, ha!

Yep, I'm on Chapter 8, definitely like the broadening scope, though it's still sort of leaning into what I'd expect from it, if that makes sense? Like, nothing has happened that's struck me as a really unique way to tell the story. However, the writing is good and I like the characters, so I will continue to read tonight!

What are your initial impressions of the Argonauts? I don't think I've ever read a portrayal of Herakles where he was a good guy, lol. I'm interested in Orpheus, don't know if he'll be in it more or not.

I'm at chapter 9, the story of the women in the island is intriguing, I wonder what they are planning.

The Argonauts sound a bit like Odisseus crew in Circe, a bunch of bullheaded fools, but we'll see... I like Atalanta's friend, he seems allright (the spelling is too much for me! :P)

Is Herakles supposed to be gay here? I haven't read many stories with him, so I'm open to either interpretations - definitely not a good guy here! Ah!

Isn't Orpheus the god of sleep or dreams or something? I'm confused! :P

I'm also starting to wonder whether we won't actually get any actual growth from Atalanta after all... We'll see...

Andy wrote: "I'm at chapter 9, the story of the women in the island is intriguing, I wonder what they are planning.

The Argonauts sound a bit like Odisseus crew in Circe, a bunch of bullheaded fools, but we'll..."

I'm only a little farther ahead than you now.

Yes, they do remind me of Odysseus's crew! And I think Herakles actually might be gay. I'm intrigued how that will develop. I'm liking him a bit more now.

Orpheus is the one whose love Eurydice died and he traveled to the underworld to try and get her back. Hades and Persephone were so charmed by his music that they said she could return to the living, as long as he didn't turn around and look at her until they were both out of Hades realm. But oops, he looked.

The women are interesting and I know what they're up to but not how it will resolve yet. :)

Margaret wrote: "Orpheus is the one whose love Eurydice died and he traveled to the underworld to try and get her back. Hades and Persephone were so charmed by his music that they said she could return to the living, as long as he didn't turn around and look at her until they were both out of Hades realm. But oops, he looked. "


Ah, thank you for setting me straight there!

Chapter 12: (view spoiler)[So, we lost Herakles, which is a bit anticlimactic, but fine... I am starting to think that is book is just going to be super episodic without much of an over-arching arc, which might fit with the myth, but it's not my preference...

I also think that Atalanta might very well stay the same throughout and just continue trying to set the men straight when they go off on a tangent, or calling them out for their callousness...

It's well written, but I don't quite see a theme (or the point).. Sorry, adventure books for the sake of it are not for me... :( I was hoping for some message...) Maybe in the next half - I am at 45 percent... (hide spoiler)]

Andy wrote: "Ah, thank you for setting me straight there!

Chapter 12: (view spoiler)..."

Yeah, I feel exactly the same. I love adventure but it still needs an overarching character growth and interesting interpersonal relationships. That hasn't been happening. I'm at exactly the same spot you are. I meant to read more last night but I fell asleep. Woke up at midnight with the kindle beside me and all the lights still on, lol.

I wanted more with Herakles, honestly. I was just getting interested.

We'll see about the second half!

Margaret wrote: "Yeah, I feel exactly the same. I love adventure but it still needs an overarching character growth and interesting interpersonal relationships. That hasn't been happening"

I know! If you are really not enjoying it, don't feel like you have to read it because we are buddying! Despite everythig, it is still keeping my attention, so I think I'll continue. It's better than the last one I read from that perspective! ;)

What did you think of (view spoiler)[Atalanta and Meleager (hide spoiler)]? I almost forgot! :P

Andy wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Yeah, I feel exactly the same. I love adventure but it still needs an overarching character growth and interesting interpersonal relationships. That hasn't been happening"

I know!..."

You know, I easily read a bunch last night and got to like 70% I think, so I plan to go ahead and finish it.

(view spoiler)[ I think their relationship is really boring and anticlimactic to be honest, lol. He doesn't really seem to have much of a personality beyond not being a total a**hole. But he's fine I guess lol. What do you think? (hide spoiler)]

This second is spoiler for Medea, so don't read until you get to that part.

(view spoiler)[ I was really disappointed in Atalanta's reaction to Medea. Medea seems obviously abused but also competent, and it seems like Atalanta would respect that, but instead she reacts distantly to Medea, slightly disturbed by her. I don't really get it. I'm not done with that section yet, so maybe it will develop more. Medea seems pretty cool to me. (hide spoiler)]

Sorry,I'm being much slower! I am at Chapter 15.

Margaret wrote: " I think their relationship is really boring ."

Ahaha! You make me laugh, yes, that must be true, as I forgot to mention it before! Ah!

(view spoiler)[Yes, Meleager doesn't have much of a personality, but neither does anyone else, including Atalanta! I guess it is her role in mythology to be the Wonder Woman who is better than any man, but it does make for a dull character... :/ (hide spoiler)]

I didn't get much read last night so hopefully I can have another solid reading night and finish tomorrow.

Your analogy to Wonder Woman is spot on.

Sorry, I'm averaging one chapter a night at the moment, but I've got some travel tomorrow and Friday, so I could finish by then! ;) How are you getting on?

Andy wrote: "Sorry, I'm averaging one chapter a night at the moment, but I've got some travel tomorrow and Friday, so I could finish by then! ;) How are you getting on?"

I finished last night! I do think it gets more interesting at the very end. I'll put thoughts in spoilers.

(view spoiler)[ I admit I was really shocked by M's death. Did not see that coming, also did not see the whole turning into lions thing coming.

I did expect Atalanta to get pregnant. I mean, of course! I thought becoming a mother gave her some character growth, but I also think that could've been explored more. Like, it would've been really interesting to see her reaction to the bodily changes that come with having a child, especially for an athlete like her, but instead she seems unchanged. If anything, I probably would've been more interested in reading Atalanta as a mother during that first year and reflecting on everything that had happened previously than the one sequential event after another. I don't know.

H love interest (sorry, don't want to look up how to spell his name, lol) was a bit more interesting than M, but still pretty boring, lol.

Why'd they discard those apples?

And what's gonna happen to that baby now?

I think I'm going to give this 3 stars.

(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 18 responding to the Medea bit): (view spoiler)[I think Atalanta might not like Medea because she achieves things through magic and subterfuge rather than through direct confrontation? She is crafty where Atalanta only ever uses brutal force.
Also, she clearly doesn't like that she could not do much to win the fleece in the end...

I think this part of the book is comparing Atalanta straightforward superiority to Medea's more subtle and manipulative methods. I mean... Yes, Medea is brutal (poor brother), but no more so than most of the men, and certainly with much more cause.

I think the original story casts her as some sort of villain that ensnared Jason, which is quite unfair... (hide spoiler)]

Andy wrote: "Chapter 18 responding to the Medea bit): I think Atalanta might not like Medea because she achieves things through magic and subterfuge rather than through direct confrontation? She is crafty where..."

It looks like there are multiple versions of her tale, some with her manipulating Jason, some not. And some where she has a spell put on her to fall in love with Jason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea

I actually know her later story better than this one, having read the Euripides play, one of my favorite Greek plays.

Margaret wrote: "It looks like there are multiple versions of her tale, some with her manipulating Jason, some not. "

Ah! I didn't know that! I am also more familiar with her later story, I read the play in high school.

I liked that Atalanta considered that Jason was swept by the tides, and just went along with things, when Medea said he had chosen her (when in fact she had chosen him), I think it was very apt. Jason was such a weak character...

Jason was a really weak character. I've never read a portrayal of him that was particularly favorable to him.

Margaret wrote: "Andy wrote: "Sorry, I'm averaging one chapter a night at the moment, but I've got some travel tomorrow and Friday, so I could finish by then! ;) How are you getting on?"

I finished last night! I d..."

I finally finished! Wow that ending was unexpected!

Also, sorry, I went on a rant, feel free not to read it! ;) I actually had fun with it at the end, but more in a laughing at the book than in a laughing with the book I am afraid. Fortunately books are not people, this one might feel a bit offended otherwise.

All the sarcasm is for the book, by the way! ;) I love reading things with you, you are super insightful!

The book wasn't bad, though, I will probably also give it 3 stars - but it was a bit ridiculous and random, I felt.

(view spoiler)[The "transforming into lion" bit was so random it made me laugh! It felt also in line with the rest of the book, that seemed to me was meandering here and there without a clear direction...

I read that the transformation into lion is actually part of the original story of Atalanta, but it still feels super random. The fact that she felt better as an animal than being constricted by human customs is apt enough for the character...

I agree with you that it would have been interesting to see more of her as a pregnant woman / mother in the early days. Characters that don't want to be mothers but have children and leave their children are generally not my preference to read about, if their internal struggles or reasoning are not explored (like in this case), but at least it felt in line with the character.
So, yes, I would have liked it if it was explored at character level, but left like this it just annoyed me: "I want to be free, being a mother and a wife means I'm not free, so I refuse both" - there doesn't seem to be anything much deeper than this simple statement, and it left me just... Mhe...

Also, what character development? :P (This is aimed at the book, not you! )
I'm trying to think whether there was a point to this story, but all I can come up with is "Atalanta is perfect because she was raised in a non-human world, she learns the human world is not perfect, she leaves the human world behind"... so the lesson is... Mankind is bad, rules are stupid, better to live in the forest. But also, this only applies to the one super special female character, because all the other women were basically unexistent or depicted with some obvious orrible flaw.

I think the not showing Atalanta as a mother or in the last stages of pregnancy also plays in this "Atalanta is perfect" theme - we cannot indulge in the parts where she is not playing the best possible character...

I did not expect Meleager to die, but I also found him and Hippomenes basically the same character repeated. So much so that I really did not see why she would go for the second and not the first. Why? If anything she had some slight chemistry with M, because of their shared cause and all the time they spent together, with H he was just there and being the besotted good guy. He was nice to the child, but it's not like she cared all that much? I don't know, I liked him, but they had little chemistry and little time together to show their mutual (?) affection.

Sorry for the rant.

I think the book made the point that the heroes were not good people, but I learnt that lesson so long ago that it does seem too obvious to try to write a whole book where that is the only point... Well, maybe that and "being free from conventions is the right/best way to live", which leaves the time that it finds, as we say in Italian! ;)

And going back to what you said: well the baby stays with the old couple, what's the problem? (Rolling my eyes at the book)

Yes, let's discard the apples! Couldn't you have used them to buy stuff for your child? Or given it to the couple so they wouldn't be poor anymore? Maybe the author needed to get to the lion part, and didn't know how to get them to defile a temple without Aphrodite being mad (because H and Atalanta had no chemistry, so they needed a reason to have sex other than... I don't know... Being newly married?) (hide spoiler)]

Andy wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Andy wrote: "Sorry, I'm averaging one chapter a night at the moment, but I've got some travel tomorrow and Friday, so I could finish by then! ;) How are you getting on?"

I finishe..."

Lol I am laughing at your rant and agree with every part.

(view spoiler)[ the lion thing was so bizarre! And yes, clearly foreshadowed, but also ridiculous in how it happened. I actually thought she'd become a bear and somehow reunite with Calliope (was that her name?). I kept expecting to go back to her.

H and M are the same character, I'm convinced. M faked his death and then came back as H so the two could be together without restraints.

I do think Atalanta's story has potential, but I don't think this is it. (hide spoiler)]

Margaret wrote: "I am laughing at your rant and agree with every part. ."

I am laughing at yours too

(view spoiler)[Ahah! H and M being the same person, perfect! ;)

Yes, I forgot to say that! I was also thinking that it would make much more sense for her to become a bear - she was raised by one! But bears don't run much, and she runs, so it would not work I guess... she could have become a deer or somenthing, but then she was a huntress, so maybe a carnivore is better... Still completely random...

In all honesty, Atalanta might not have been a character for me from the start, she is all about adventure and she's too perfect... (hide spoiler)]

One thing I liked at the end was the idea that change was actually positive.

Andy wrote: "One thing I liked at the end was the idea that change was actually positive."

Very true.