The Mookse and the Gripes discussion

Still Born by Guadalupe Nettel, translated by Rosalind Harvey

I thought this was fantastic- I even left midway through a concert to finish it.

I thought this was good but wasn't hooked like you were, Robert. Glad to see it on the list.

this was my top pick, so happy to see it!

I'm happy to see this there too, definitely my favourite of the novels on the list.

Yep, really liked this one. As it's stayed in my head I'll probably bump it up to 5 stars.

I'm an outlier here.

Can certainly see why others liked it, and in many respects the novel is a gripping and powerful exploration of motherhood, and indeed of what it means to live.

But the writing - didn't work for me at all.

My reservation is the prose style, where powerful passages come between pages of relatively quotidian story. Perhaps that is deliberate - even dealing (I suspect no spoiler alert needed) with a severely handicapped child - has its elements of routine, but it meant a 203 page novel felt too long.

The narrative perspective was also odd - a favourite bugbear of mine - with Laura's story in the first person, and Alina's narrated by her in the third, but with little difference between them (Laura forming at times the role more of an omniscient third person narrator).

Would be disappointed if there aren't 6 better books (indeed I've already read 3 better ones from the list).

I’m with the majority with this one and thought it was really good.

I was at the time of reading living next to some severely noisy neighbours and remember finding a lot to relate in the novel, though in the novel the neighbours are met with more compassion than I managed to uphold (and indeed I moved out).

I really connected to this one

Tommi wrote: "I’m with the majority with this one and thought it was really good.

I was at the time of reading living next to some severely noisy neighbours and remember finding a lot to relate in the novel, th..."

I've been in that situation too, also moved! But I found this convincing on a number of levels, have a friend whose child has very similar issues to the child in the book - massive failure by the medical team during childbirth - and thought this was a very accurate portrayal of the dilemmas and emotions involved.

I bought this for a young friend who, with her fiancé, have decided against having children. She is being told she’ll change her mind, she’ll regret it one day, the usual nonsense intelligent adult women hear when they make a choice about their own life. I was disappointed that both women ended up with child centered lives, as if they couldn’t fight the mythological nurturing gene all women are purported to have. But seeing that women here who I respect loved the book I will reread it with an open mind.

I'm totally hooked. I didn't think I'd be given the topic, but the character is reading Solenoid and I'm definitely won over.

What do you mean by that? I’m wondering if I need to sit with this again with fresh eyes. I read it awhile back and liked it, but couldn’t see where all the excitement over it was coming from.

endrju wrote: "I'm totally hooked. I didn't think I'd be given the topic, but the character is reading Solenoid and I'm definitely won over."

I initially read your comment on my phone where words were missing. Still thinking I might need to revisit this.

solenoid was a nice Easter egg

David wrote: "I read it awhile back and liked it, but couldn’t see where all the excitement over it was coming from."

I'm not sure myself either. The language is not complex and it's not a novel of ideas, two things I admire in literature, but there's a certain propulsive quality to the narrative. For example, I couldn't wait to find out about the boy in the apartment next door. The reveal was a bit of a disappointment, but still. There's a chance I may change my mind though as I haven't read more than half of it.

I'm of two minds regarding this one. The first part was excellent, but then the second part fell below flat with the prose that honestly pissed me off how bad it was, but then the ending got me back on track. A rollercoaster of the novel. Boulder is better though if for no other reason than because it is written in a more consistent manner.

I found the third party sections strong -and I believe based on a real friend and daughter of the authors.

The first party sections dragged it down for me and the pigeon and cuckoo were very heavy handed I felt.
3.5 stars so top of my longlist rankings so far.

I liked the ideas in this one and suspect it will linger from that point of view, but I also found it underdramatized and unexciting to read. The strand with Alina and her family had plenty of stakes, but the narrator’s thread seemed so slight in comparison. I would have liked some more time in her head to know about her thoughts on why she doesn’t want children…not that a person needs a reason, of course, but it would have made her feel a little more developed as a character.

I agree with GY about the heavy handed cuckoo metaphor; very cringey

Was anyone bothered by both women ultimately raising children? I’m all for having kids if one wants, I’ve had a few myself, but both women said they did not want to raise children and both ended up with children anyway. I wanted a story about women or a woman who had a satisfying, fulfilling life without children.

I think that’s a different book though as it was not what the author was aiming for here but a different idea altogether.

This from an interview

Laura uses the expression “human shackles” because – at least in the way it is practised today in western societies – motherhood limits, binds and sometimes even mutilates women’s lives and freedom. All the burden, responsibility and moral weight falls on their shoulders, while men can just disappear or show up from time to time without any social consequences. I think that the solution resides in collectivity. For centuries humans raised children this way. Families were far more extended than they are now, so women weren’t so alone.

There was always another woman – friend, sister, mother, aunt – to look after the child in case the mother fell ill, had to work, or lacked the psychological conditions. Some women adore children’s company but don’t want to give birth, and collective raising allows them to participate in motherhood without having to be biological mothers. I am not inventing anything new. It is just a coming back to a practice and common sense that we lost at some point, but this time I suggest we make sure that men participate as well!

The fault was mine in having expectations, I knew that. I was hoping for a different book, but your post is very helpful. I appreciate the book more now that I see what she was trying to say.

https://youtu.be/4EOHVigG-Fw

Robert wrote: "https://youtu.be/4EOHVigG-Fw"

As always, well done! Maybe we have similar tastes in literature. 🤔

Tracy wrote: "Robert wrote: "https://youtu.be/4EOHVigG-Fw"

As always, well done! Maybe we have similar tastes in literature. 🤔"
Thanks!

WndyJW wrote: "Was anyone bothered by both women ultimately raising children? I’m all for having kids if one wants, I’ve had a few myself, but both women said they did not want to raise children and both ended up..."
I was the opposite and liked that it wasn’t just a book about not wanting children/wanting children but I didn’t see Laura as raising a child, rather a short time carer in his life. We’ve had periods in our family where an extra child has fallen into our care but then they’ve moved on.

Alina’s life with her husband, post devastating diagnosis and subsequent birth was so well depicted. Having a few friends who have had children with life limiting diseases I thought Nettel showed the love and value these little lives bring to families that those on the outside don’t always see.

"WndyJW wrote: "Was anyone bothered by both women ultimately raising children?"

I think we're culturally in danger of this becoming a polarizing issue: to have children/not have children, to be a mother/reject motherhood. So I liked the nuance offered here and the complexity of a woman not wanting children of her own but still being shown to be nurturing and caring under different conditions.

It's not unlike those of us who may not want our own kids but are adoring aunts and special friends to the kids of our best friends.

These are great comments Lou and RC.

I thought this one was well done and moving, and it is now top of my list.

Not wanting children has always been and is still an issue for women in the US, which is why I had hoped this would be a different book. I have heard women say they don’t trust a woman who doesn’t want children! I don’t think most adults are ambivalent about having children and I don’t think we are all innately maternal or paternal, we know by our twenties if we want to have kids or raise kids. That these two independent, career-driven women in the 30’s ended up with child centered lives undermines women who know that they do not want kids and reinforces the notion that deep down all women really do want to raise kids.

When I read the description of Still Born I sent a copy to a young friend whose wedding we’re attending in a few weeks, she and her partner decided they don’t want to have kids and her mother, aunt, and sisters don’t believe her, they tell her she’ll change her mind, though nothing in my conversations with her points to her changing her mind, so I was hoping for a book that showed women having a fulfilling, meaningful life that does not include raising children. Alina and Laura were not adoring aunts, one had a child and one took on the care of a child in need, which is not the role aunts of well parented children play.

I feel I should stress that I thought it was a good book, just not what I thought it was going to be, which is no fault of the author or book.

Wendy, I completely agree with you about women who know they/we don't want to have children, full stop. But, as you say, that's not what this book is about.

I like the way it's moving towards a spectrum of femininity rather than extreme positions of all-encompassing motherhood vs. the stereotype of the cold, uncaring 'career woman'. As women, we're more complicated than that and I feel that's acknowledged in the book.

I agree there’s value in that too, for sure. I guess I was looking for the book about the content family of spouses and their cat!

High five to that!

“we know by our twenties if we want to have kids or raise kids.”

Is not that though the kind of sweeping generalisation you are elsewhere arguing against.

It simply was not true at all for me or many people I know - particularly but not exclusively men - and changing their mind in their thirties in both directions as their lives and relationships changed.

I didn't think this book reinforced the notion that all women really want to raise kids. I'm in my 40s and childless. I'll gladly still help a friend or family member with their child. I'm not anti all children around me. I thought one of the themes was community and different ways to mother

I believe you are right and we are all agreeing - but Wendy is saying that she is understandably disappointed the book was not about something slightly different (which was the impression she had gained from blurbs before we started reading and reviewing) - that it would give a more positive message on women who do not want children in any way

well meg mason agrees with you Wendy, there aren't enough books like the one you're looking for
https://capsulenz.com/think/opinion/w...

WndyJW wrote: "Not wanting children has always been and is still an issue for women in the US, which is why I had hoped this would be a different book. I have heard women say they don’t trust a woman who doesn’t ..."
My experience is quite different in Australia and it’s less of an issue although the things said about our first female Prime Minister, childless by choice, were ordinary at best. I do appreciate why you wanted this to be that book though.

Thanks for sharing that article, Yahaira, it does highlight the lack of books available. I still believe for Laura this was short term and did not make her regret sterilisation although she did ‘mother’ for a bit. This article with Nettel is also good:
https://www.anothermag.com/design-liv...

That's a great interview, Lou. It's interesting to see the book's themes placed into context in Mexico in particular. It helps me situate this with some of the recent work from Melchor and Rivera Garza.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I like the way it's moving towards a spectrum of femininity rather than extreme positions of all-encompassing motherhood vs. the stereotype of the cold, uncaring 'career woman'. As women, we're more complicated than that and I feel that's acknowledged in the book."

Great comment. As refreshing as it was a few years ago to read something like Die, My Love, it's nice to see a book like this explore these issues on a spectrum.

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I believe you are right and we are all agreeing - but Wendy is saying that she is understandably disappointed the book was not about something slightly different (which was the impression she had g..."

Yes, this, thanks, GY, and thanks for the articles, Yahaira and Lou.

Few statements apply to everyone and I don’t think most adults make a firm decision to parent or not in their 20s, but I do think most young adults kinda know if they do want to raise kids or are open to the idea of parenting if life goes that way for them, or they know they are not.

And I think there is range of how well thought out that decision is. I know couples for whom the decision was one they came to after discussing the ethics of bringing more humans into a crowded planet and couples that just never saw themselves as parents and realized that they were free to choose not to.

There is still a lot of pressure on women to have children (even though our healthcare and postnatal treatment of women and babies is awful,) and the assumption is that women have an innate maternal nature. I don’t think single childless men are as suspect as single or married childless women.

We’ve had a number of books recently about women who’ve gone mad after becoming mothers, we have books about happy mothers, depressed mothers, and books about depressed or happy women in which motherhood was never discussed; Still Born is very good book about the different ways women can mother, now we need the books about women who made the conscious decision not to give birth or to raise children, how that decision colored their lives and show them as fulfilled, productive happy adults.

Nicely said, Wendy

Generally agree except the kinda knowing as young adults which I don’t get at all. Life looks very different in your mid 30s than mid teens, as indeed the world situation does (even if you view hasn’t changed) given 20 years would have elapsed.

Paul wrote: "Generally agree except the kinda knowing as young adults which I don’t get at all. Life looks very different in your mid 30s than mid teens, as indeed the world situation does (even if you view has..."

It can be rather different for women. Women aged 35 and over who get pregnant are classed as 'geriatric mothers'. And although women are increasingly opting to get pregnant post 35, the process is harder and there are a number of associated health risks both to the expectant mother and the prospective child. And women are often made acutely aware of these issues at a much earlier age, and that can direct them to think about these things much earlier too.

Right, Alwynne. I can’t speak for men or all woman and my experience is anecdotal, as I suspect most of our suppositions in this discussion are, but the women I knew in our 20s who chose not to have kids knew at that time they did not want that life. I have heard people in their early 30s say maybe if they meet the right person…, but my guess is this is a decision women are thinking about earlier than men because of societal pressure, comments from mothers, aunts, grandmothers, “ when you have children… ,” most girls are given dolls when they’re young, most boys not, something I hope is changing.

WndyJW wrote: "Right, Alwynne. I can’t speak for men or all woman and my experience is anecdotal, as I suspect most of our suppositions in this discussion are, but the women I knew in our 20s who chose not to hav..."

Absolutely and part of that pressure linked to the idea that we have to decide before it's physically too late or more risky/less certain, something that doesn't impact men in the same way.

I just finished this book for #WiT and was delighted to find this discussion filled with lots of thoughtful comments and great links! I especially appreciated @Wendy's comments on needing more books with characters that are child-free, by choice. Hear hear.

I was decidedly mixed on the book itself. I really liking the themes, I was neutral about the writing, but some of the areas of focus (the pigeons and helping her neighbours) felt quite clunky to me.

In searching for interviews I discovered this was also selected for Dua Lipa's bookclub this year so I guess it's been getting some new press. I really appreciated the piece Nettel recently wrote regarding her inspiration. Apparently the pigeon thing was real too! Ha!
https://www.service95.com/guadalupe-n...