Christian Goodreaders discussion

Several people in our group are interested in reading and discussing The Robe (1942) by Congregational minister Lloyd C. Douglas, which is especially topical in this Easter season. This is the thread where we'll be sharing our ongoing comments, questions, background information, etc. (I read this excellent historical novel back in 1998, when I was preparing for teaching American Literature as a homeschooling parent, and it earned four stars from me when I later reviewed it here on Goodreads.)

I just got through the first chapter of The Robe, and so far I am really enjoying it! I generally read nonfiction, so this is a bit out of my wheelhouse, but the fact that it’s based loosely on what society might have been like back then makes me feel like I can still learn something from it :)

I’m enjoying the character building so far as well. And I like that right off the bat, the family had an unusually fond and respectful attitude toward the slaves they owned (which was common during that time). I also like that despite the book being written back in the 1940’s, there is a diversity of ethnicities which the family owned as slaves. I think because of the transatlantic slave trade which is what most of us are familiar with, when we think of slavery we think only of the atrocities that the African American slaves went through, when historically every race has been enslaved at some point. And I really liked how right at the end of the chapter, the father told his son (still learning all the characters names) that just because someone is a slave doesn’t mean that what they think or say isn’t important.

This book seems to be getting off to a great start so far, so I’m looking forward to the rest of it!

In Chapter 4.

Tribune Marcellus Gallio talks about the actual robe ceremony is for young tribunes. Then he talks about his fantasy robing ceremony where one tribune ready to retire from active service bestows his robe on or allows his robe to be bestowed on a newly made tribune. Without saying so, Marcellus Gallio is talking about the young tribune receiving blessings by wearing the old tribune's robe. . . .Serves as hint of what will come.

about Marcellus' question: Were you out there?

Marcellus' question reminds me of the old African-American slave spiritual "Were You There When They Crucified My Lord?"

https://gccsatx.com/hymns/were-you-th...

The narrator's sense of humor.

Old Tiberius orders others to assassinate the Empress Julia, but Julia does not agree to being assassinated. So she still lives on.

Cynda, I’m only on chapter 2, but the last thing you posted about Julia made me laugh 😂

Yes SCL I wish we had more time for Julia 😊

Reading Chapter 8.

I have tucked away in my mental file the historical commonplace that women, slaves, socially marginal found attractive Jesus and His Message of Salvation/Redemption. Now that I hear Demetrius' need to find source of comfort, I now feel a new level of understanding of how the women and slaves found comfort while Jesus lived. And the mothers who lost children not yet adults due to lack of good medical care. And the crippled/disabled who had no therapeutic path laid out for improved quality of life.

Reading Chapter 10.

Old Tiberius makes another funny reference to Julia. I will let you find it SCL. 😆 And a funny reference Tiberius makes about philosophers:

All philosophers are sick in the head.

And Tiberius is just too old, tired, and drunk to do anything about it all. Back to sleep.

Looking forward to finding it! So far I’m really enjoying the book! But I’ve had a bad headache all day so I’ve barely read at all 😖 I’m two chapters in so far and not sure I’ll get any farther tonight. I’ll keep you posted as I go, though! 😄

Going back to Chapter 9.

The writing in this novel tells truths in such artful ways, including truths about what it might have been like to be a gentile follower of Jesus. While in Athens looking at the statuary honoring the ancient philosophers, Demetrius says that someday that a statute might be made to honor Jesus among these philosophers. How difficult it is to know The Way without historical context, study, tradition.

I hope you feel better soon SCL. I am getting ready to switch over to some other books I am committed to reading as well. I will come back in a couple of days or as soon as I see you posting. Take care.

I'm not sure what chapter I'm on as I'm listening to the book rather than reading it, but I am to the point of Marcellus leaving for his new post at Gaza. It seems like the set-up is there to make this a very interesting story and I am excited to continue "reading."

Hi Jessica. Since you are reading/listening, I will start up again tomorrow.

I’m on chapter 5 now, reading the part where Demetrius is thinking about Jesus and how He didn’t look like He wanted to be made king, and that a new government wouldn’t make things better. That the problem is in peoples hearts. Made me think about our own country all the mess we’re in. But like Demetrius said, the government isn’t stopping us from being decent to one another, it’s our own hearts that are the problem. And until our hearts are changed, a new government won’t fix things. Deep!

Some Christian Lady wrote: "I’m on chapter 5 now, reading the part where Demetrius is thinking about Jesus and how He didn’t look like He wanted to be made king, and that a new government wouldn’t make things better. That the..."

Very true!

Amen! And, we should do what the bible says about the leaders of our governments: 1 Timothy Chapter 2

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Amen, Nancy 🙏

Yes, and if people would actually PRAY for our president, our mayors, our city council, our congressmen, instead of getting on Facebook or Twitter and complaining all day, what a glorious change could be wrought. If we spent as much time in prayer and bible reading as we do in chasing the world and it's devilish temptations, we would be much healthier body of Christ, and a bride of Christ with clean garments. Christians need to shake off the garbage the world offers.

Seems to me that Demetrius was saying that humans work against themselves. I am listening to an audiobook, so it is difficult to go back, but here is what I know.

We would have governments that serve the greater good, yet so many will not vote. The local bus company provides both ADA-compliant buses and free service to everyone on voting days. The buses are not full. Few talk of voting. My long-time friend L lives within walking distance from a community college which has a polling location within the student center. Only twice has she seen students in line to vote. She has lived there for maybe 20 years.

And I am not innocent. It has been a life-long struggle to learn what works and doesn't work in my life for myself, my family, my friends, my community. We all need prayerful help.

What a burden Jesus bore for people who even with best intentions don't always do what serves.

Not to be too fatalistic about it all: We do what can and leave the results to God.

Quote from Chapter 12

The Truth set them free.

Loving it.

Totally agree, Cynda!

about Oral Tradition.

Because the narrative about Jesus and Christianity is still being discovered, discussed, and decided upon, Marcellus is discovering Christianity in the oral form. The tellers keep checking in, asking Marcellus if he believes this or that story. No one has the formal story yet. We are watching part of it being developed.

Demetrius in Chapter 19:

If a man considers himself stronger than death, he has nothing to fear.

Demetrius in Chapter.20:

Let us not make the mistake of thinking that because this message of Jesus concerns peace and goodwill it is a soft and timid thing that will wait on every man's convenience and scurry off the road to hide in the bushes until all things go by.

I find it interesting the details that the author adds in to the biblical events that add a filter to how you interpret these well know events. For example, that Jesus's eyes showed loneliness during the entry to Jerusalem on Palm Sunday and that the donkey he rode was white.

On Palm Sunday Catholics everywhere remember Jesus' arrival on a donkey into Jerusalem. The congregation stands and participates in something like closet drama which makes clear the indignity and disrespect heaped on Jesus as he rides into Jerusalem on a donkey rather than a horse, as he arrives to cheering, as he approaches his painful undignified death, as he fulfills His Father's direction to die to save human souls. I am humbled.

Early this morning at one of the nonfiction groups I read with, a group member spoke of how a book they are reading about creativity explains how even reading a short story is a creative act. Yes it is because we all read the text differently. That is why we have discussions about what we read. The same is true of the Bible. Same text. Different reads. Interesting to hear about the other reads. I can gather new ideas, decide if I want to keep them--like Marcellus and Diana are talking about about the last I left them.

Cynda wrote: "...the indignity and disrespect heaped on Jesus as he rides into Jerusalem on a donkey rather than a horse..."

From at least the Middle Ages on down to the present, Western Christians have tended to view riding on a donkey as somehow less noble or more demeaning than riding on a horse, and therefore as out of character for a king. A lot of popular Bible interpretation, both Protestant and Catholic, approaches the Palm Sunday narratives in the Gospels in that way.

However, based on everything that I've read so far in my life about horses and donkeys in the ancient Near East, there's no indication that people in that milieu looked at it that way. Horses in biblical times were more used for military than civilian purposes (to pull war chariots, or for cavalry service). For civilian transportation, using donkeys was much more common, and there are Old Testament references to royalty and other important people riding on mules or donkeys (Judges 10:4; II Samuel 18:9; I Kings 1:33). The prophecy in Zechariah 9:9 that the Messianic King would come to Jerusalem riding on a donkey is very much in continuity with that cultural pattern.

Thank you Werner. I will reread and ponder on this. This is good information.

Werner reading the citations you provide. My New American Bible has a concordance-style footnotes. The note for Judges 10:4 says that saddle-asses were sign of rank and wealth. I see in Second Samuel 18:9 that that Absalom the favored child of David rode a mule. And in First Kings 1:33 I see that David tells attendants to mount onto a mule Solomon who was just proclaimed heir.

I would have said that yes I had read of mules in the Bible. But I would not have noticed that such worthy personages rode astride mules as sign of dignity. Thanks again.

I’m on chapter 8 now. Not sure how much I’ll contribute as I go along only because my dog passed away on Wednesday and it’s left me not feeling super chatty… I’ll do my best to add my thoughts on the book as I go along. So far, I’m definitely enjoying the story.

Sorry for your loss. No wonder you were not feeling well, SCL. You take care of you now.

Glad to help out, Cynda!

Sincere condolences, SCL! My family and I have also lost dogs we were very fond of, so I understand the sadness.

Cynda wrote: "Demetrius in Chapter 19:
If a man considers himself stronger than death, he has nothing to fear."
No human is stronger than death, simply because no one is stronger than Jesus Christ, who is God, and Jesus holds the keys to hell and death. Revelation 1:18
Who we all should fear is God, because HE alone has the power to cast us into Hell, and then the Lake of Fire.
[12] And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
[13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
[14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
[15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
[16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
[17] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
[19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Some Christian Lady wrote: " my dog passed away on Wednesday and it’s left me not feeling super chatty… I’ll do my best to add my thoughts on t..."
I'm so sorry you lost your beloved companion. Our dogs are wonderful gifts from God, they love us unconditionally, they are always happy to see us, and they do their best to protect us and serve us. What breed of dog did you have, Some Christian Lady? How old was he?
My sweet Chihuahua, Teddy, died a couple of years ago from Cushing's Disease. It was awful. Before that, our other Chihuahua died, years before Teddy. Right now we have Toby, our Pomeranian-Chihuahua mix, and he is 10 years old.
Tell me one of the cutest things your dog used to do.

Cynda wrote: "Demetrius in Chapter.20:
Let us not make the mistake of thinking that because this message of Jesus concerns peace and goodwill it is a soft and timid thing that will wait on every man's convenienc..."
That describes the majority of today's Christians and the preaching in the pulpits.

Cynda wrote: "On Palm Sunday Catholics everywhere remember Jesus' arrival on a donkey into Jerusalem. The congregation stands and participates in something like closet drama which makes clear the indignity and d..."

As Werner states, everything I have heard and read over the years is that riding on a donkey in Biblical times was a good thing, not something associated with indignity. I too grew up in the Catholic Church, though I do not attend there anymore, yet we always celebrated Palm Sunday as a joyous day where Jesus was honored as the King He is. It was not until this year that I first heard/read any interpretation of Palm Sunday that suggested it was a sad occasion or involved any kind of disrespect and this book is one of the two times this year that this interpretation has come up. I was kind of surprised by it. Certainly I have always thought that the crowd was fickle, praising Jesus on Palm Sunday and calling for his death less than a week later, but I have never thought of the Palm Sunday events as disrespectful. I have always heard of it as the Triumphal Entry. It seems odd to me to suggest that this was a sign of disrespect to Jesus when He knew it was coming, knew it was a fulfillment of prophesy and a tradition of the kings of Israel, and it was He that called for the donkey to be brought for Him to ride on.

Some Christian Lady wrote: "I’m on chapter 8 now. Not sure how much I’ll contribute as I go along only because my dog passed away on Wednesday and it’s left me not feeling super chatty… I’ll do my best to add my thoughts on t..."

Sorry for your loss! Prayers for comfort!

Nancy, it’s funny you say that (about pets being a wonderful gift from God), because that’s exactly what I always say. They truly are a gracious gift from God, who often serve no other “purpose” than companionship and joy for us (not always of course, I know there are many working dogs as well). It’s like God created dogs for no other reason than that He is a loving Father who just wants to give His children good gifts for their pure enjoyment.

Pan was 15 1/2 years old, and I had him from the time he was about 6 months old (I adopted him from the shelter as a puppy). He developed severe pulmonary hypertension and we unfortunately had to put him to sleep on Wednesday because he was having trouble breathing. This is the second dog I’ve lost (both dogs in my profile picture have now passed on). Very tough. But the Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. And blessed be the name of the Lord. I am so thankful for all the years I had with him. I just miss him.

I’m still making my way through the book. I got to chapter 10 I think last night.

One thing I’m wondering about is why the “R” in Robe is always capitalized in the book? Does the Robe symbolize the Holy Spirit?

My memory could be wrong Jessica. I will mention it and then be done. I was gravely ill. ICU staff put me to sleep. I woke up a different person with significant lack of memory and lack of mobility skills. I could remember incorrectly. Very possibly.

Cynda wrote: "My memory could be wrong Jessica. I will mention it and then be done. I was gravely ill. ICU staff put me to sleep. I woke up a different person with significant lack of memory and lack of mobility..."

I'm sorry to hear that and glad that you pulled through!

Thank you, Jessica.

SCL, I pray for your comfort.

I have finished listening to the audiobook. I am glad I listened so I could hear the silly new Emperor of Rome try to make Marcellus sound sillier than himself. I would have laughed if the situation were not so serious.

I will continue to read your comments throughout month.

Cynda, why do you think the Emperor of Rome tried to make Marcellus sound ridiculous?
Do you think he is an accurate reflection of non-Christians of today, when confronted with a strong biblical message?

Some thoughtful questions Nancy.

The Caligula of The Robe is a silly man who knows he has power, does not know how to use it wisely, but knows how to use it effectively. To send the honorable Marcellus to his death, the emperor has to publicly call out Marcellus because not every Christian is automatically found out and executed. The narrator of The Robe plays up the silliness of Caligula and the honor of Marcellus. This is historical fiction. The writer and narrator have poetic license to exaggerate or downplay to literary points.

We as Christians find that we are encouraged to find Marcellus the Christian honorable and the officially pagan Caligula ridiculous.

As for do I think that Caligula is an accurate reflection of non-Christians of today. . . . While I cannot answer that question, I can say that among the educated, aware, and wise that there is no war against Christians. The Archbishop Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama were close and loving friends. Together they wrote of their friendship and lifes' work in The Book of Joy: Lasting Happiness in a Changing World. I am searching my memory to remember other such collaborative books.

Listen to this, then we will talk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ6b_...

Hallelujah!

Yes Hallelujah! The Lord has died and is now risen!

Nancy wrote: "Do you think he is an accurate reflection of non-Christians of today, when confronted with a strong biblical message?

Cynda wrote: "While I cannot answer that question, I can say that among the educated, aware, and wise that there is no war against Christians."

Human nature being the same today as it was in the first century (and, indeed, ever since the Fall), non-Christians now react to encounters with the gospel in the same ways that they did then. But, of course, being different individuals with free will, whose choices to respond to or resist the common grace of a loving God have shaped them into different people with different degrees of openness to the gospel, they don't all react in the same way, then or now.

There are certainly people today (even "educated" ones, or ones who think they're educated), who are, like Caligula, totally wrapped up in their sin and selfishness, and ready to lash out in hate and fear at anybody who challenges that. But there are people who immediately recognize that the gospel message is just what they need for redemption; and others who don't accept or reject it immediately, but want to mull it over. It was so in the first century too; the New Testament reflects that, and so too does this novel, as I recall.

Werner, your comment reminds me of the parable of the sower.
Matthew 13- [18] Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
[19] When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
[20] But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
[21] Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
[22] He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
[23] But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.