Victorians! discussion

So how did you enjoy the reading this week? I thought Dickens’ comic touch was in fine fettle in these chapters! There were several places where I laughed out loud. What passages (tickled your funny bone? Please share!

Chapter V ended last week with Polly and Susan hatching a plan to make a secret visit to Polly’s house, something that Mr. Dombey would have frowned upon. In Chapter VI, they sally forth on this expedition, the Dombey children in tow.

There’s an interesting passage where Dickens describes the advent of the railroad, likening it to an earthquake in the scope of the mayhem and damage that it introduces into the neighborhood: trees are downed, houses are demolished, and streets are dug up. Deep pits, piles of dirt and debris, and other signs of construction mar the landscape. While most inhabitants of the area were slow to embrace this sign of progress, stubbornly continuing their normal patterns and refusing to move to make room for this encroacher until they are forced to, a few businessmen welcomed the new trend and opened businesses that allied themselves through name with the railway. Others, like the residents of Polly’s neighborhood, Stagg’s Gardens, were openly hostile to this modern invention.

The Toodles clan is naturally thrilled with this unexpected appearance of their mother, and their respectful deference to Susan quickly gains her goodwill. After Polly and Susan take their leave, they walk to meet young Biler, the Charitable Grinder scholarship recipient, and come upon the poor lad as he is being bullied by a group of boys. Polly, of course, leaps to his defense and enters the fray, giving the Dombey baby to Susan to hold. When a cry of “Mad bull!” goes up, Florence is terrified and takes off running, mistakenly believing that her companions are right behind her.

She finds herself in unfamiliar surroundings and is immediately approached by an old woman who lures her into a shabby abandoned house. There the woman who introduces herself as Good Mrs. Brown steals Florence’s clothing and amost cuts her hair off before releasing her. Florence finds her way into the city and there her paths cross with the members of the other household we have been reading about–that of Sol Gills and his nephew, Walter. Walter is elated to be able to play knight errant for the terrified girl. They soothe and feed her and Walter goes to inform her family that she is safe. Walter escorts Susan back to his house to clothe Florence and bring her home. When Florence returns home, it is to find Polly on the verge of leaving. She has been blamed for the whole affair, even though readers know that it was Susan’s idea and Polly required a lot of persuasion before agreeing to it. Nevertheless, Polly is fired and Susan is allowed to stay due to her age. Florence’s pain at Polly’s departure provides another insight into Dombey’s feelings as the sight of his daughter crying and begging Polly not to leave is “a dagger in the haughty father’s heart, an arrow in his brain, to see how the flesh and blood he could not disown, clung to this obscure stranger, and he sitting by. Not that he cared to whom his daughter turned, or from whom turned away. The swift sharp agony struck through him, as he thought of what his son might do” (82). He insists to himself that he doesn’t care about Florence, couldn’t care less whether she loves him or not, or who she does bestow her love upon, but the pain he feels contradicts this assertion. If he genuinely didn’t care, the pain would be absent. He only allows himself to acknowledge these feelings if they are about his son.

In Chapter VII we meet Miss Tox’s neighbor, Major Bagstock, described as “a wooden-featured, blue-faced Major, with his eyes starting out of his head” (83). He also has a hilarious habit of referring to himself in the third person (anyone see that Seinfeld episode?). Not only does he talk about himself like this, but he tries to see how many different versions of his name he can incorporate into these conversations. This prepossessing gentleman has begun what he views as a flirtation with Miss Tox, and one that she seems to welcome until she enters the Dombey orbit. Once she becomes involved with helping to raise little Paul, she has no time for the Major and lets him know it. After a particularly frosty interchange, he observes (through his opera glass, the creeper!) that she has a baby in her house. He watches her and observes her comings and goings but is still denied her former friendship,

At this, we jump ahead in time, and young Paul is now almost five years old. Despite the anxious care lavished upon him by his aunt and his godmother, he is a sickly child with a delicate constitution. He has a new nurse, a Mrs. Wickam, who has, unknown to Mr. Dombey, a very melancholy outlook. Mr. Dombey considers his son’s illnesses a necessary part of childhood and is impatient to get through these developing years. Dombey’s son is “important to him as a part of his own greatness, or [which is the same thing] of the greatness of Dombey and Son” (90). Though “he loved his son with all the love that he had,” this love is not really for the child as he is, but for the man he will someday become–”the ‘Son’ of the firm” (91). Dombey has no real concerns for his son’s health. He has created a plan for his son in his head and because of this, he feels that the boy “must become the man with whom he held such constant communication in this thoughts, and for whom he planned and projected, as for an existing reality, every day” (91). Even fate would not have the temerity to interfere with Dombey’s plans, in his mind!

Little Paul initiates a conversation with his father about the meaning of money and demolishes his father’s claim that money “can do anything” (94) by pointing out that it couldn’t save his mother or restore his own health. Mr. Dombey has no idea how to counter this. When he later demands to know what the doctor has to say about the child, he learns that Paul is slow to recover from his latest illness and experiences bouts of weakness. According to the doctor, he needs sea-air. Thus, we are introduced to Mrs. Pipchin. She is an elderly widow whose husband “broke his heart” as a result of pumping water out of Peruvian mines. This unfortunate gentleman was not involved in the physical activity of this endeavor; he was an investor in it. This lady now makes her living as an “infancy expert,” teaching children how to behave. The secret of her success is to “give them everything that they didn’t like, and nothing that they did” (99). Although the Dombey children do not seem in need of this particular type of instruction, they are in need of a place to stay while Paul imbibes the sea air, and Miss Tox assures Mr. Dombey that Mrs. Pipchin runs an “infantine Boarding House of a very select description” (98).

It is decided that Florence must accompany her brother, as he cannot stand to be without her. The nurse, Mrs. Wickam, will also attend them, and Mr. Dombey will visit on weekends. The environment of the boarding house is grim and severe, punishment being meted out for the smallest infraction. The children spend part of each day on the beach with Mrs. Wickam. Lessons consist of readings, either by the other children or by Mrs. Pipchin herself. She does not believe in encouraging “a child’s mind to develop and expand itself like a young flower, but to open it by force like an oyster” which means that the lessons she presents are “usually of a violent and stunning character: the hero–a naughty boy–seldom, in the mildest catastrophe, being finished off by anything less than a lion, or a bear” (102).

Mrs. Pipchin does not seem particularly fond of little Paul until after a humorous conversation with him that begins with him talking about her age and ends with a dispute about a mad bull. After this odd exchange, they seem to reach an understanding and spend each evening sitting together before the fire, Paul staring unceasingly at Mrs. Pipchin’s countenance. Mrs. Wickam has her own theory about Paul’s odd behavior. She thinks that Paul’s late mother haunted him while he was a baby, watching over him. Mrs. Wickam knew another child just as eccentric as Paul, and while that child survived just fine, the people around her did not. Mrs. Wickam believes this bodes ill for poor Florence, as well as Mrs. Pipchin.

Paul clings to his sister, sending away any child who attempts to befriend him on the beach. The chapter ends with Paul asking his sister what the sea is saying. If you remember, the sea is also mentioned in Chapter I as Mrs. Dombey is dying. Is this foreshadowing about Paul’s fate?

In Chapter IX, we return to the home of Sol Gills and Walter Gay. Walter has not forgotten his adventure with Florence and has even saved mementos of that day, such as the threadbare shoes she was wearing. We learn that Walter and Florence have met in the street several times since that adventure and are always gracious to one another. Sol and Captain Cuttle are still hopeful that Walter’s future might be made by a match between the two, and Miss Nipper was equally hopeful, swept away by Walter’s good looks and Florence’s predilection for him.

Walter’s fantasies of making his fortune at sea and returning home to sweep Florence off her feet and carry her away come crashing down when he discovers that his uncle is in debt and cannot pay. Mr. Brogler, a local broker, is the owner of the debt and is about to foreclose on Uncle Sol. Walter reaches out to Captain Cuttle for help in dealing with this situation, and the good Captain has a shocking solution–ask Mr. Dombey to lend the money. Walter is dumbfounded by this but feels helpless to refuse it, so the two set off for Brighton to approach Mr. Dombey for help. It’s quite touching to see Captain Cuttle’s willingness to make whatever sacrifice is needed to help his old friend. Without hesitation, he offers everything he owns of any value, including his own income.

Chapter X brings Major Bagstock back into our orbit. So I’m just realizing as I’m writing this that this means that he has been lurking and watching Miss Tox for five years. Five years! He finally sees an opening to put him in Mr. Dombey’s path. The Major is friends with the father of one of the inmates–I mean guests–of Mrs. Pipchin and he hurries to Brighton to befriend this boy. “With his complexion like a Stilton cheese, and his eyes like a prawn’s” (125), he drags the unfortunate little boy around, paying no attention to him at all, all his focus fixed on locating the Dombeys. When he finds them, he makes good use of his time, flattering Dombey so skillfully that that starched-up gentleman deigns to befriend him. They exchange visits, and eventually the Major is invited to dinner during a Brighton visit that includes Miss Tox. He is a hit at this dinner, creating “such an infinite number of new changes on his own name that he quite astonished himself” (128). Impressed by the Major’s friendship with Mr. Dombey, Miss Tox is much friendlier to her neighbor.

Inordinately pleased with the success of his long stalking campaign, the Major returns to his room and “fell into a silent fit of laughter, with which he was sometimes seized, and which was always particularly awful. It held him so long on this occasion that the dark servant, who stood watching him at a distance, but dared not for his life approach, twice or thrice gave him over for lost. His whole form, but especially his face and head, dilated beyond all former experience; and presented to the dark man’s view, nothing but a heavy mass of indigo” (128).

The next day, Walter and Captain Cutter arrive in Brighton, but Walter’s resolve wavers at the Dombey door. Dombey orders him inside, and Walter, faltering and tearful, presents his case. Mr. Dombey allows his son to decide the matter, and little Paul, mindful of his sister, who is weeping in commiseration with her former saviour, instantly agrees to let Walter have the money. Dombey uses it as a teachable moment, stressing the elements of power involved in the transaction to the child.

Walter, Uncle Sol, and Captain Cuttle are beyond relieved and overjoyed at having preserved Uncle Sol’s home and business from the bailiff, but while Uncle Sol and Captain Cuttle see this as a big step toward their dream of Walter and Florence’s marriage, Walter sees it as the death of that fantasy.

What are your thoughts on the book so far? On the characters? Please share!

These questions can be used as a jumping-off point, or not at all. If you have any questions of your own, feel free!

1. Were you surprised that Dombey agreed to lend Walter the money?
2. What do you think of young Paul’s behavior? Do you think his behavior stems from intelligence and maturity beyond his years, or is he unique in a disturbing sort of way?
3. Do you think Miss Tox has a chance of becoming the next Mrs. Dombey?
4. Do you think that Major Bagshot’s ultimate goal is to get close to Mr. Dombey, or is he trying to win the heart of Miss Tox?
5. Why does Walter see the money-lending from the Dombeys not as a mark of favor, but instead as the death of his dreams about Florence?
6. Have you changed your opinion about a character this week? How so?
7. Who is your favorite character so far?
8. Did any parts of the reading make you laugh, and if so, which ones?

The chapter with Florence alone and in the clutches of Good Mrs. Brown was terrifying. Literally anything might have happened to her! She was clever to remember a way to find her way to safety, and certainly Walter as her savior was quite sweet.

Jumping to the last chapter. I can only imagine that the lending of money is the means by which Walter and his uncle become beholden to young Master Dombey in the future. I think there may be more to it than the opportunity for a life lesson in the eyes of Dombey Senior.

5. Walter may have harbored the naive illusion that he might do well enough in business to gain the good opinion of Mr. Dombey. He may feel that the issue of borrowed money makes that impossible, as he will always be seen in light of his family’s lack of success/shrewdness in business. I don’t believe that he would ever have climbed high enough to suit Dombey’s ideas of a worthy match for HIS daughter. Even though he does not value her for herself, her marriage would likely be seen as a reflection of the name of Dombey.

3. I’ve been wondering about Miss Tox for awhile now. She has ingratiated herself first with the sister, now the brother. Someone is due for a surprise… I suspect it will be Mrs. Chick, if Tox becomes the next Mrs. Dombey. It’s hard to say yet whether Dombey will be flattered enough to engage in matrimony with someone he has admired for knowing her place.

7. Major Bagshot amuses me. I think Captain Cutter may prove to be a true ally for Walter and his uncle. I hope the three will continue to show up in the story… and not get too badly banged about.

Renee wrote: "The chapter with Florence alone and in the clutches of Good Mrs. Brown was terrifying. Literally anything might have happened to her!..."

I know! The part about cutting her hair is weird--I really thought Florence was going to lose all her curls. I definitely don't think Walter would be considered a good match for Miss Dombey, no matter how un-Dombeylike her behavior may be!

Renee wrote: "3. I’ve been wondering about Miss Tox for awhile now. She has ingratiated herself first with the sister, now the brother. Someone is due for a surprise… I suspect it will be Mrs. Chick, if Tox beco..."

I can't decide if Miss Tox is manipulative or just a lonely spinster, pathetically grateful for any attention. I do believe she harbors hidden hopes for Mr. Dombey, but it has been five years now. Mrs. Chick talks like she would be totally on board, but that may be because she hasn't considered it seriously. She might feel differently if it came to pass.

Major Bagshot is one of the things I laughed out loud about this week. That scene where he has the paroxysm of laughter is hilarious! I also enjoy his inventiveness with his own name.

Captain Cutter is so sweet! I also laughed at him solemnly laying out his sugar tongs and teaspoons for Mr. Dombey, and "waving his hook politely to the ladies" (129). That cracked me up! :)

I have an odd question… I am listening and my physical copy is packed away so I can’t check the print… Did the list of young Biler’s school clothes include leather underpants?? I think the words were small clothes and I’ve always thought those were undergarments.

Renee wrote: "Did the list of young Biler’s school clothes include leather underpants?? I think the words were small clothes and I’ve always thought those were undergarments...."

I think they are his pants, or knee-breeches. They tell her that he will have a "a nice, warm, blue baize tailed coat and cap, turned up with orange-colored binding; red worsted stockings; and very strong leather small-clothes" (59). I did a little digging on the internet (nothing too deep), and I found "smalls" used to refer to underclothes, but the term "small-clothes" seems to mean outer pants such as knee breeches. There wasn't a wealth of information on the subject. And looking at the text, it seems odd that they would list every part of his outfit but his pants if the leather item was his underwear. Hope this helps!

1) The loaning of money - yes that was a great surprise.
2) I think Paul is unique in literature. A boy wise beyond his years.

Thanks, Cindy. It really does. Later when they talk about his discomfort I was imaging the worst!

I was surprised that Dombey should befriend Major Bagshot. I suppose it will become necessary for the plot that Dickens has in mind, but it is not wholly believable to me. Also, to his children, even to Florence, Dombey acts much more 'normal' than in the earlier chapters.

well, Dickens and believable characters - that's always a problematic relationship.

Francis wrote: "1) The loaning of money - yes that was a great surprise.
2) I think Paul is unique in literature. A boy wise beyond his years."

He is definitely precocious! I'm just trying to figure out how much of a Dombey he is actually going to be. Dickens uses words like "sly" and "goblin" to describe him, and I'm wondering if this is foreshadowing about negative personality traits coming out as he gets older. We shall see!

Renee wrote: "Thanks, Cindy. It really does. Later when they talk about his discomfort I was imaging the worst!"

LOL! Leather pants are bad enough--leather underwear would be torture, indeed! :)

sabagrey wrote: "I was surprised that Dombey should befriend Major Bagshot. I suppose it will become necessary for the plot that Dickens has in mind, but it is not wholly believable to me. Also, to his children, ev..."

I love Dickens, but I do agree with you. Some of his characters are so flat, especially his angelic women characters. Others are villainous without a single redeeming trait. Wilkie Collins characters are much more dynamic--I love his female characters! Well, most of them, anyway (Laura Fairlie, I'm looking at you!).

I love Dickens' writing, his wit, his incisive reflections on human nature, and I love his caricature characters for being amazing, unforgettable caricatures. I guess I enjoy him for what he does give me and go elsewhere for the rest. I hope that you find something you enjoy in the reading.

3. Do you think Miss Tox has a chance of becoming the next Mrs. Dombey?

I think with Mrs. Chick's support she has an inside track. I think she thinks she is a prime candidate also.

Cindy wrote: "I love Dickens, but I do agree with you. Some of his characters are so flat, especially his angelic women characters. Others are villainous without a single redeeming trait. "

yes, that's how I feel - 'Dickens' Angels' I call them by myself, and I wonder already whether Florence will join their ranks ...

I have not yet found my own way to enjoy Dickens ... maybe I will with this group read. I don't give up yet.

sabagrey wrote: "Cindy wrote: "I love Dickens, but I do agree with you. Some of his characters are so flat, especially his angelic women characters. Others are villainous without a single redeeming trait. "

yes, t..."


At these early stages Florence reminds me of Little Nell (from The Old Curiosity Shop) even though they are from very different social backgrounds. But Florence has been neglected rather than ‘pampered’ as most well-to-do young girls from middle class Victorian homes would have been at the time. So perhaps the comparison is at least correct on an emotional level.

With the dismissal of Polly, Florence is now the only ray of light/warmth in the Dombey household. The icy metaphors continue to radiate from Dombey himself and I felt even the loan was just a pandering to his son’s wants, because his speech beforehand condemned those who get themselves in debt.

I feel sure that Walter must become a hero of some sort in this novel, not just for his rescue of Florence, …….
’ Don’t cry, Miss Dombey,’ said Walter, in a transport of enthusiasm. ‘What a wonderful thing for me that I am here! You are as safe now as if you were guarded by a whole boat’s crew of picked men from a man-of-war. Oh, don’t cry.’ ……..
……but also because of his courage in the way he approached Dombey and asked for the loan. I hope I am right because I like to champion those from lowly positions taking on the rich and powerful. Of course he had Captain Cuttle to help and encourage him. I loved the descriptions of the Captain, not least when he introduced himself to the Dombey household.

’ At the same time the Captain, coming a little further in, brought out his wide suit of blue, his conspicuous shirt-collar, and his knobby nose in full relief, and stood bowing to Mr. Dombey, and waving his hook politely to the ladies, with the hard glazed hat in his one hand, and a red equator round his head which it had newly imprinted there.’

Dickens‘ descriptions tend to to make even the most grotesque of people seem somewhat endearing. One such example is the old man that Paul the younger selected to pull his carriage to the seashore.

’ Consistent in his odd tastes, the child set aside a ruddy-faced lad who was proposed as the drawer of this carriage, and selected, instead, his grandfather — a weazen, old, crab-faced man, in a suit of battered oilskin, who had got tough and stringy from long pickling in salt water, and who smelt like a weedy sea-beach when the tide is out.’

Trev wrote: "sabagrey wrote: "Cindy wrote: " I felt even the loan was just a pandering to his son’s wants, because his speech beforehand condemned those who get themselves in debt."

I actually didn't get that impression. I felt that Dombey was beginning the process of teaching Paul the processes of business and to pass on his perception of the value of money, in particular, to demonstrate that it could buy sycophancy and the control of other people and their lives. Do you remember Paul's question to his father about what money could buy? Perhaps Dombey Sr saw this as an opportunity to provide his view of a partial answer to that question.

7. Who is your favorite character so far?
I'm surprised Captain Cuttle hasn't been chosen as someone's favorite so far.

8. Did any parts of the reading make you laugh, and if so, which ones?
Captain Cuttle's antics make me laugh.

Francis wrote: "7. Who is your favorite character so far?
I'm surprised Captain Cuttle hasn't been chosen as someone's favorite so far.."

Very well developed, no doubt about that. And Mil Nicholson's portrayal of his sea-faring gravelly voice and accent in the Librivox audio edition really lift him off the proverbial page.

Paul wrote: "Francis wrote: "7. Who is your favorite character so far?
I'm surprised Captain Cuttle hasn't been chosen as someone's favorite so far.."

Very well developed, no doubt about that. And Mil Nicholso..."

Yes I've found everything Mil Nicholson has done is wonderful.

Trev wrote: "At these early stages Florence reminds me of Little Nell (from The Old Curiosity Shop) even though they are from very different social backgrounds. But Florence has been neglected rather than ‘pampered’ as most well-to-do young girls from middle class Victorian homes would have been at the time. So perhaps the comparison is at least correct on an emotional level...."

I would say it is correct, in my view. Florence may have a nice home, good food, and nice clothes to wear, but as far as emotional needs are concerned, the Toodles children are far wealthier than her. They go to bed every night in their humble home, secure in the knowledge that they are loved by their parents, while Florence is haunted by the fact that her own father wants nothing to do with her. He regards daughters as insignificant, was disappointed at her birth and has tried his best to avoid thinking about her ever since.

I do think Walter will turn out to be some sort of hero, especially to Florence, and I would also not be surprised, sabagrey, if Florence turns out to be one of Dickens' "angels." It would be nice to see all that saintliness balanced out with a flash of temper occasionally! :) Even Laura Fairlie in The Woman in White grew a spine toward the end of the book. We shall see!

I do love the descriptions of these older men (again, the polite waving of the hook just rolls me!) and I'm curious to see where all of this sitting around with old people gets little Paul. He seems drawn to some very odd characters!

Francis wrote: "3. Do you think Miss Tox has a chance of becoming the next Mrs. Dombey?

I think with Mrs. Chick's support she has an inside track. I think she thinks she is a prime candidate also."

I'm trying to figure out if Mrs. Chick would really want Miss Tox as her sister-in-law. She does seems very attached to her and speaks admiringly of her, but it just reminds me of Fanny Dashwood and Lucy Steele in Sense and Sensibility. Fanny doted on Lucy until she found out that Lucy had snared Edward; she turned on her like a virago after that!

Paul wrote: "I felt that Dombey was beginning the process of teaching Paul the processes of business and to pass on his perception of the value of money, in particular, to demonstrate that it could buy sycophancy and the control of other people and their lives...."

I agree. By letting little Paul make this decision himself, Dombey is letting his son have a taste of the power that money and the control of it bestows. That is something he would never get from a book or a lecture. It is a teachable moment and he makes good use of it.

My favourite illustrations (from the Victorianweb) relating to this section both include Florence, although she finds herself in very different circumstances.

Here she is the prisoner of ‘Good Mrs. Brown,’…….



’ Florence obeyed as fas as her trembling hands would allow; keeping, all the while, a frightened eye on Mrs. Brown — Fred Barnard's seventh illustration for Dickens's Dombey and Son, Household Edition (1877)

Here Florence is as close as she can be to her brother on Brighton beach…………….



‘Listening to the Sea,’ Fred Barnard 1877

"If you were in India, Floy," said Paul, after being silent for a minute, "I should — what is it that Mama did? I forget."

"Loved me!" answered Florence.

"No, no. Don’t I love you now, Floy? What is it? — Died. If you were in India, I should die, Floy."

While the senior Paul Dombey is described as friendless, the young Paul allows one very special friend into his world - Florence. He is other-worldly, appearing to ponder serious issues at his young age, listening for what the ocean waves might tell him, and confiding to his sister, "We don't want any others, do we?"

Mr. Dombey is emotionally disabled, for some reason.

Young Paul strikes me as a child who is older than his years because he is frequently ill and perhaps has the shadow of death hanging over him. Because he observes others so quietly and carefully, he has perhaps more insight into the adults in his life (such as Mrs. Pinching who continually allows him to sit with her). But I don’t believe Paul really loves or is interested in anyone except Florence. It isn’t unusual for a child created by Dickens to manifest adult-like behaviors, but in this case it feels decidedly ominous.
Florence is my favorite character because she has courage and a great ability to love, despite the neglect of her father and aunt. My least favorite character is Major Bagstock; he’s very entertaining, but he’s up to no good.
I do not think Miss Tox will marry Mr. Dombey. She definitely wants that, but I’ll be surprised if he can tolerate her for long. One interesting point about Miss Tox is that we see her and hear her but are never privy to her thoughts. We know her through her surroundings, her way of dressing, and her way of relating to others, but we don’t yet know the inner woman.

Nancy wrote: "It isn’t unusual for a child created by Dickens to manifest adult-like behaviors, but in this case it feels decidedly ominous. ..."

I felt the same say, Nancy. The diction Dickens used made me wonder about how Paul would turn out. I noted above, I think that he used words like "sly" and "goblin," which have negative connotations, to me.

Nancy wrote: "One interesting point about Miss Tox is that we see her and hear her but are never privy to her thoughts. We know her through her surroundings, her way of dressing, and her way of relating to others, but we don’t yet know the inner woman. ..."

I think you're right about this, as well. Does she truly care about the Dombeys or is she just trying to get close to a rich family? Does she have designs on Mr. Dombey? We aren't really told how she feels about them.