The Sword and Laser discussion

So, I'm about 25% of the way through the book (as per Goodreads' reckoning), and unlike the other books I've read for the show - I've found myself needing to take a mental health break from the book - a first for the S&L picks I've read so far. I'm trying to figure out why it's the case with this one and not some of the other ones I've read along with the group. I think part of the reason is the variety of dread I'm getting from the story, and how incredibly bleak the tone is.

Minor personal note: I am on the autism spectrum, and probably have undiagnosed anxiety, so my neurodivergence is impacting how engage with the story in this regard

(Note to Tom and/or Veronica in case you read this on the show - I'll try to add some pronunciation notes as footnotes, so you can skip them if you don't need them)

The story sets its stakes for the human side of the story astronomically high, with literally the last hope of humanity being the crew of this ship, after humanity nearly wiped itself out through an intentionally deliberate act of almost-successful omnicide, which weirdly creates an increased sense of anxiety for everything on the planet involved our civilization of uplifted spiders, with a clear sense that the settlers on the ship and the spiders are going to come into conflict at some point (though where I'm at now there's a very real possibility that the ship isn't going to make it and the last humans are going to have to ditch on this planet, maybe).

Now, I have enjoyed stories that felt this bleak to me, and even ones where the ending is an ultra downer - I'm a fan of anime, and part of the thing that got me into anime was movies and shows that were willing to be bleak in ways that western animation of the time (which was generally aimed for kids) was more willing to do. As I've gotten older though, I've oddly felt less mentally comfortable being blindsided by the bleakness. Sometimes it's knowing how far the work is willing to go - I knew going in how the Elric saga ended, and indeed that's part of what hooked me, to see the journey to that destination, and the same with the anime series Space Runaway Ideon[1], or the same with Devilman (either the manga or with the more recent adaptation in Devilman Crybaby) and having that knowledge let me mentally ready myself for the blow. Did it mitigate the impact of both series equally apocalyptic endings? Probably. However, I felt like I was able to make it through the journey with the knowledge that (view spoiler)[nobody and nobody gets out alive (hide spoiler)] in either work, though I went into both without knowing in full how things came to pass.

Similarly, if a particular author has a reputation for bleakness, then even if I don't know the nitty-gritty of how a story ends, that can give me enough advance notice that I know what I'm in for. If I sit down for a series written or directed by Yoshiyuki "Kill 'Em All" Tomino[2] (Ideon, the first two-and-a-half Gundam series plus Char's Counterattack, Aura Battler Dunbine[3]) or Gen "The Urobutcher" Urobutchi[4] (Madoka[5] Magica, Fate/Zero, Psycho-Pass), I can go in knowing that things are likely going to get dark (though not with certainty - Tomino did Turn-A Gundam, and Urobutchi did Thunderbolt Fantasy, which aren't nearly as dark as their more infamous works). Same in novels with Michael Moorcock or George R. R. Martin.

By contrast, this is the first novel I've read by Tchaikovsky and the first book in this series, and, well, since I'm not a Patreon backer (though maybe I should rectify that), I don't have the Book Briefing, so I don't know if he's the kind of author who looks at Aniara[6] and goes, "I can do something bleaker." or not - and weirdly, peeking at the back of the book doesn't feel like it gives me a clear answer, one way or another.

I am going to try to finish the novel - I'm not ready to Lem it quite yet, but it's a stumbling block that I haven't experienced previously.

Is anyone else running into this?

[1]E-day-on.
[2]Toe-me-no
[3]Done-Bine
[4]Ur-roe-boo-chi
[5]Ma-doe-ka
[6]Annie-ar-a

For a while I was losing motivation in the middle, but I think by the time you get around 3/4 of the way, it's quite a page turner, and I can hint at a somewhat positive ending. Don't worry, Dorothy triumphs over the Wicked Witch. It's sort of like Anathem, that builds up to something cool.

As someone who has read all 3 Books in the series and several other of Adrian's books in other series, he does prefer optimistic outcomes.

I'm confident you will enjoy the resolutions to the storylines.

I'm about half-way through and not really getting the same vibes. Maybe it's because the characters are very focused on the solutions to their problems and are very capable problem-solvers that I feel this way? I'm not assuming that the hardships are going to stop coming for either species in the book, but I like that everyone seems capable and industrious even as they are apt to succumb to the foibles particular to their own species.

I'm just over half way and I'm not finding it bleak but somewhat disheartening. (view spoiler)[Even with humanity's survival at stake, they're still finding ways to screw themselves. I'm at the part where Guyan is trying to become the ship's AI and he has a group of fanatics willing to kill for him. Ug. As for the spiders, Kern declaring herself a god has really thrown them for a loop. (hide spoiler)]

I'm finished with CoT. There definitely is a bleak start to the book. I think what's contributing to that atmosphere is that this book is a subversion of your standard seed-ship story, one where everyone works together (because the obvious alternative is species extinction). I had a moment at the middle where it was just one piece of bad news after another, and it felt like I was about to read a story where humanity's last hope manages to kill themselves out of sheer stupidity and hubris. Then add intelligent spiders to the mix. It's horrifying.

That said, the story does go somewhere and it's not all bleakness for bleakness's sake (Aniara sounds horribly depressing). I absolutely felt the Gundam connection here, the bleak reality serves to ground the whole plot in much the same way. I think of the bleakness as just one more tool in Tchaikovsky's arsenal, and it really does enhance nearly every development in the story.

When I was doing my research on the book I found a few comments hinting at some sort of "Sanderlanche" at the end, and I think that the bleak atmosphere definitely amplifies that expectation. I think the strong point of the book is that the feeling of dread and tension follows you to the end. As we get closer to the end there are some moments of relief, but I never once felt like I knew how this was going to end.

I would strongly recommend you stick with the story even if it makes you feel a little depressed or uncomfortable because there's nothing else like it out there.

I had to look up "Sanderlanche." Having done so, I will note that it is both hilarious and appropriate here. Yep to the bleak start and middle, but payoffs abound.

The bleakness didn't bother me, the deep dive into the spiders lives was a slog for me (thankfully, I listened to the audiobook). I persevered & it was totally worth it. I nearly cried. 4 stars!

I found it gripping. Sure, the parts with the humans got a bit bleak, because they were so repeatedly getting things wrong, but they were worth it in the end. The parts with the spiders I didn't find that way, however; yes, bad things keep happening to them, but there was still a sense of progress, of things getting better for them in the long term and that part was positive for me. Indeed, that contrast of human decline versus arachnid ascent was one of the things I liked.

Plus, you've got to love some spider biology :)

Actually I'm finally reading Three Body Problem now, and it has a similar thing with evolution and computers...

Jamie wrote: "I found it gripping. Sure, the parts with the humans got a bit bleak, because they were so repeatedly getting things wrong, but they were worth it in the end. The parts with the spiders I didn't fi..."

Interesting. I agree with you in part.
I found the overall story to be rather tedious (a minority opinion, I know).
I reckon the spiders are the best characters.
I found the humans to be unlikeable and rather unbelievable. IMHO there is no way they could have maintained the technology to keep the generation ship going under the conditions given in the story line, and I reckon they would have perished.
But, most seem to really like this story; so, YMMV.

Clyde wrote: "I found the overall story to be rather tedious (a minority opinion, I know).
I reckon the spiders are the best characters.
I found the humans to be unlikeable and rather unbelievable. IMHO there is no way they could have maintained the technology to keep the generation ship going under the conditions given in the story line, and I reckon they would have perished."

The spiders totally are the best part, any scenes with crew paled in comparison. They really were just a surly and scraggly bunch of idiots, and I found the whole drama of their journey in the latter half to be contrived and disbelievable.

Although I had some criticisms about the Gilgamesh, they were not related to its longevity or maintenance. The narrative seems to suggest that Empire Tech is built to last, and the Gil reached its limits around the same time as Kern's satellite. However, I was skeptical about the possibility of large-scale re-animation and the emergence of a civilization on the ship. Questions about the availability of food and sustenance for the crew left me uncertain.

There was a point where I was getting bogged down in the details, but ultimately the story that gets told more than makes up for where the story drags (at least it did for me).

To be honest, I stopped around the middle for like a year. But once I pushed ahead enough, I was into it. It's not that long, and a lot of people like it.

So, I did end up eventually finishing the book. However, without spoilers, every time either the humans or Kern ended up directly entering the plot I always found myself sort of... mentally clenching, like I was getting ready to get hit in the back with a light tube or something. I did feel like I was rushing through the ending out of a bit of a sense of anxiety, instead of letting the writing play out.

I am glad I finished it, but I think I will need something a little lighter as a palate cleanser - either as my next book or maybe reading a bit of a fluffier manga or comic to catch my breath a little.

CountZeroOr wrote: "So, I did end up eventually finishing the book. However, without spoilers, every time either the humans or Kern ended up directly entering the plot I always found myself sort of... mentally clenchi..."

Don't read City of Last Chances. It is bleak... (Not grim dark but bleak)

I wouldn't go so far as to call it bleak. (Yet)

It is definitely a city at its lowest. Under control by an oppressive invading foreign power.

But there are the odd shining lights who try to rise above and push for change (by way of revolution) and at the point I am in the book (52%) they are getting hammered back down.

I am hoping to see some sort of people's revolt before the end.

I am enjoying it. It is a solid good, not great yarn. 3-ish stars.

Tassie Dave wrote: "I wouldn't go so far as to call it bleak. (Yet)

It is definitely a city at its lowest. Under control by an oppressive invading foreign power.

But there are the odd shining lights who try to rise ..."

I have finished. Bleak is the word....

This book is bleak? I’m around the 75% mark, and it doesn’t feel bleak to me at all. We’re seeing creatures evolving, going from mindless killers to increasingly thoughtful individuals, with some huge flaws, naturally, but my feeling with this book so far is that life is pretty incredible.

Iain is talking about Adrian Tchaikovsky's other book City of Last Chances being bleak, not CoT